last couple of games

[Tyler3450]

I haven't been able to watch the last two games but from what I'm reading is the team is looking like the team of last year..

When Thomas is ready how do we incorporate him without messing this all up???

 

[BC867]

Check post #77 in the "Suns at Dallas 12/5/14" thread for one opinion.

 

[Tyler3450]

i remember what helped a lot last year was when bledsoe sat and dragic ran the point with the twos that way he was able to have the ball in his hands even more...

the theory you posed doesn't necessarily allow that...

what do you think???

 

[BC867]

i remember what helped a lot last year was when bledsoe sat and dragic ran the point with the twos that way he was able to have the ball in his hands even more...

the theory you posed doesn't necessarily allow that...

what do you think???

I don't quite follow. I have been suggesting that Dragic runs the Point when he and Bledsoe are on the floor, and using IT as the backup (shoot-first) Point Guard.

Dragic & Bledsoe.............Point Guard=Dragic
Bledsoe & IT...................Point Guard=IT
Dragic & IT.....................Point Guard=IT
Any of the 3 with Green....Point Guard=anyone but Green (of course)

Injury or fatigue to Bledsoe or Dragic....Backup Point Guard=IT

If the 3 Point Guards can live with that. If not, get rid of one of them and replace him with a genuine backup PG.

 

[AzStevenCal]

i remember what helped a lot last year was when bledsoe sat and dragic ran the point with the twos that way he was able to have the ball in his hands even more...

the theory you posed doesn't necessarily allow that...

what do you think???

I think his success was more the result of the two man game with Channing that Goran ran when Bledsoe was on the bench. IIRC, it was the most effective pick and roll combination in the league. So far we haven't been able to find a good pick and roll/pop option to play with him. Len has the ability to pick and pop which was so essential to the pairing with Frye last year but he's struggling catching the ball in motion right now. Maybe once his hand fully heals and he gets a little stronger we'll be able to plug him into that role.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't quite follow. I have been suggesting that Dragic runs the Point when he and Bledsoe are on the floor, and using IT as the backup (shoot-first) Point Guard.

Dragic & Bledsoe.............Point Guard=Dragic
Bledsoe & IT...................Point Guard=IT
Dragic & IT.....................Point Guard=IT
Any of the 3 with Green....Point Guard=anyone but Green (of course)

Injury or fatigue to Bledsoe or Dragic....Backup Point Guard=IT

Honestly, I don't know how someone can watch our games and say definitively that Goran or Eric is the point guard on any given night. It's part of what makes them so dangerous IMO.

Steve

 

[BC867]

I think his success was more the result of the two man game with Channing that Goran ran when Bledsoe was on the bench. IIRC, it was the most effective pick and roll combination in the league. So far we haven't been able to find a good pick and roll/pop option to play with him. Len has the ability to pick and pop which was so essential to the pairing with Frye last year but he's struggling catching the ball in motion right now. Maybe once his hand fully heals and he gets a little stronger we'll be able to plug him into that role.

Steve

And when Frye wasn't hitting his 3-point shots, he was a liability at Power Forward and Center, hurting the team (and his fellow front court players) more than he was helping.

To cling to the Ghost of Season Past would not help the Suns take the next step. Not last season. Not any season.

As far as who is our Point Guard . . . Dragic clearly took the job back from Bledsoe tonight and we beat the Mavs on the road. Which is why I proposed the formula of Playing the 3 Point Guards as I did.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And when Frye wasn't hitting his 3-point shots, he was a liability at Power Forward and Center, hurting the team (and his fellow front court players) more than he was helping.

To cling to the Ghost of Season Past would not help the Suns take the next step. Not last season. Not any season.

I'm not asking for the return of Frye, merely the return of a pick and roll partner for Goran. The guy has to be able to hit the mid range shot too. But, statistically, every thing I've seen disagrees with your point about Frye. For us, he was an asset on defense, not the liability our other bigs were. That probably says more about how bad our other bigs were but still, he was our best option. Regardless, Len will hopefully give us the replacement we need and become a much better defender than Frye too.

Steve

 

[devilalum]

The Suns are exploiting the IT Free zone.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns are exploiting the IT Free zone.

Is it the absence of IT? Is it the presence of Tucker in the starting lineup? Is it Goran finding his legs and confidence after a long summer? Or is it just a couple of nice games and not a trend at all? Or is it some other reason? I really have no idea, just hoping it hasn't been a fluke.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I think his success was more the result of the two man game with Channing that Goran ran when Bledsoe was on the bench. IIRC, it was the most effective pick and roll combination in the league. So far we haven't been able to find a good pick and roll/pop option to play with him. Len has the ability to pick and pop which was so essential to the pairing with Frye last year but he's struggling catching the ball in motion right now. Maybe once his hand fully heals and he gets a little stronger we'll be able to plug him into that role.

Steve

Dragic doesn't need Frye.

If so, why did he succeed in Houston?

Steve ignores easy data. You shouldn't.

 

[BC867]

Is it the absence of IT? Is it the presence of Tucker in the starting lineup? Is it Goran finding his legs and confidence after a long summer? Or is it just a couple of nice games and not a trend at all? Or is it some other reason? I really have no idea, just hoping it hasn't been a fluke.

Steve

You've brought up good points, and I think it does explain what looks to be an improvement, despite the mediocre performance of our two Centers.

The absence of IT as a third equal Point Guard and finisher as opposed to just being a backup. It was too much confusion and lack of commitment.

Returning Tucker to his starting SF spot and bringing Mook off the bench.

Goran, perhaps finding his legs but, even more, following his announcement about that confusion of 3 Point Guards until IT went down with injury.

 

[SirStefan32]

Honestly, I don't know how someone can watch our games and say definitively that Goran or Eric is the point guard on any given night. It's part of what makes them so dangerous IMO.

Steve

I disagree. It's quite easy to see who is the PG. There was a game earlier this year where I counted the consecutive possessions where Dragic did not touch the ball. It took five trips down the floor to see Dragic touch the ball.

You can also tell from the overall ball movement. IT tends to dominate the ball the most, followed by Bledsoe, whereas Dragic doesn't dominate the ball nearly as much. If Dragic is running the offense, the offense looks normal. If Bledsoe (or IT) is running the offense, it is painfully obvious who is playing the point.

Another easy way is to see how quickly the ball is brought up the floor. Bledsoe prefers to bring it up slowly, while Dragic just wants to run with the ball as fast as he can.

Before I give Dragic all the credit for the recent success, I do want to point out that both, he and Bledsoe have been shooting the ball much better recently, which is critical for this team to win. If either one of them is not shooting the ball well, it makes them both much less effective.
If they are hitting their outside shots, the defense has to respect the SG which makes PG's life much easier.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dragic doesn't need Frye.

If so, why did he succeed in Houston?

Steve ignores easy data. You shouldn't.

In what way did he "succeed" in Houston? Did they make the playoffs, did he make the All Star game? He did what he's done for us. He scores well but is fairly routine at developing offense for his teammates. The one big exception in his career has been the pick and roll with Channing. If he'd succeeded it seems to me that Houston might have offered him more than the fairly average salary we brought him in for.

BTW, his play in Houston led him to be preseason ranked somewhere around 13th best point guard going into his return to Phoenix. That's pretty average. Last year he was allowed to focus on scoring and he turned into a star. We only won about 50 percent of our games when he was doing this as a point guard but when he was paired with Bledsoe and playing this way, we won at a .650 clip. He's much better as a Harden/Manu type player than he is as a Chris Paul type player. Harden and Manu can play point guard too but your team won't win consistently without someone else helping them run the offense.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

Is it the absence of IT? Is it the presence of Tucker in the starting lineup? Is it Goran finding his legs and confidence after a long summer? Or is it just a couple of nice games and not a trend at all? Or is it some other reason? I really have no idea, just hoping it hasn't been a fluke.

Steve

It's a combination of factors, all related to shooting. Tucker has become a reliable three-point threat, Goran has found his shot, and Bledsoe has been improving his long-range shooting slowly but consistently.

Not having to worry about IT's minutes helps as well, as did the fact that Goran has been running the point a lot more.

 

[95pro]

bledsoe has no control of the tempo and of the game when the ball is in his hands. tonight i watched Dragic and whoever was in the corner just stand there with no anticipation of the ball ever getting to them.

but they both did well without IT again. i'll say it again, but this team looks like the team from last year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree. It's quite easy to see who is the PG. There was a game earlier this year where I counted the consecutive possessions where Dragic did not touch the ball. It took five trips down the floor to see Dragic touch the ball.

You can also tell from the overall ball movement. IT tends to dominate the ball the most, followed by Bledsoe, whereas Dragic doesn't dominate the ball nearly as much. If Dragic is running the offense, the offense looks normal. If Bledsoe (or IT) is running the offense, it is painfully obvious who is playing the point.

Another easy way is to see how quickly the ball is brought up the floor. Bledsoe prefers to bring it up slowly, while Dragic just wants to run with the ball as fast as he can.

Before I give Dragic all the credit for the recent success, I do want to point out that both, he and Bledsoe have been shooting the ball much better recently, which is critical for this team to win. If either one of them is not shooting the ball well, it makes them both much less effective.
If they are hitting their outside shots, the defense has to respect the SG which makes PG's life much easier.

In the first few games Goran kept trying to find room to penetrate and when it wasn't there he'd force up a shot or two and then re-sign himself to standing around. After a couple games of that, as soon as he saw the lane closed he just handed the ball off to whoever was closest and stood in the corner. I don't believe that's what Jeff intended from him. The past several games he's stopped being so passive and he's played very well. As for shooting, I think Bledsoe needs Goran to shoot well more than Goran needs Eric to shoot well.

Bledsoe and IT both pound the ball on the perimeter and you're right, Dragic doesn't do much of that. He either jab steps and drains the 3 or he drives and scores/dishes or he'll drive through the key and reset the offense. But when Goran wasn't seeing daylight, he did none of those things.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

In the first few games Goran kept trying to find room to penetrate and when it wasn't there he'd force up a shot or two and then re-sign himself to standing around. After a couple games of that, as soon as he saw the lane closed he just handed the ball off to whoever was closest and stood in the corner. I don't believe that's what Jeff intended from him. The past several games he's stopped being so passive and he's played very well. As for shooting, I think Bledsoe needs Goran to shoot well more than Goran needs Eric to shoot well.

Bledsoe and IT both pound the ball on the perimeter and you're right, Dragic doesn't do much of that. He either jab steps and drains the 3 or he drives and scores/dishes or he'll drive through the key and reset the offense. But when Goran isn't seeing daylight, he does none of those things.

Steve

We agree on these two points.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Dragic doesn't need Frye.

If so, why did he succeed in Houston?

Steve ignores easy data. You shouldn't.

How did he succeed again in Houston? Sure wasn't in stats averaging 12 and 5... And he didn't get them in to the playoffs either. So, what is the "success" you're talking about?

 

[Sci Fi]

In what way did he "succeed" in Houston? Did they make the playoffs, did he make the All Star game? He did what he's done for us. He scores well but is fairly routine at developing offense for his teammates. The one big exception in his career has been the pick and roll with Channing. If he'd succeeded it seems to me that Houston might have offered him more than the fairly average salary we brought him in for.

BTW, his play in Houston led him to be preseason ranked somewhere around 13th best point guard going into his return to Phoenix. That's pretty average. Last year he was allowed to focus on scoring and he turned into a star. We only won about 50 percent of our games when he was doing this as a point guard but when he was paired with Bledsoe and playing this way, we won at a .650 clip. He's much better as a Harden/Manu type player than he is as a Chris Paul type player. Harden and Manu can play point guard too but your team won't win consistently without someone else helping them run the offense.

Steve

Babble, babble, babble.

As a starter for the Rockets. 18 8 PPG/8.4 ASG on 61.2 TS%.

Played as a top 5 PG while starting.

Far better than Bledsoe has ever done.

Yes, Steve, he's OK without Frye.

 

[Sci Fi]

How did he succeed again in Houston? Sure wasn't in stats averaging 12 and 5... And he didn't get them in to the playoffs either. So, what is the "success" you're talking about?

See above. I realize nuance is beyond you.

Steve wonders why there are no new poster.

Thank Cheese.

 

[Sci Fi]

bledsoe has no control of the tempo and of the game when the ball is in his hands. tonight i watched Dragic and whoever was in the corner just stand there with no anticipation of the ball ever getting to them.

Happens all the time.

Bledsoe is a very valuable player but not as a primary PG.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Babble, babble, babble.

As a starter for the Rockets. 18 8 PPG/8.4 ASG on 61.2 TS%.

Played as a top 5 PG while starting.

Far better than Bledsoe has ever done.

Yes, Steve, he's OK without Frye.

so... he had "success" for half of a season. and down the stretch, in the thick of a playoff race for the 8 seed, he led Houston to a sterling 2-8 to bomb out the end of the season. doesn't look like a whole lot of success to me. and honestly... it must not have looked like a lot of success to GMs either as he only warranted a 7.5 million dollar per year deal, which isn't knock your socks off money for a PG hitting FA in his prime.

didn't see much success the next season when he averaged 15 and 7 and the Suns won 26 games. an okay season stat wise, but not much else.

 

[Sci Fi]

so... he had "success" for half of a season. and down the stretch, in the thick of a playoff race for the 8 seed, he led Houston to a sterling 2-8 to bomb out the end of the season. doesn't look like a whole lot of success to me. and honestly... it must not have looked like a lot of success to GMs either as he only warranted a 7.5 million dollar per year deal, which isn't knock your socks off money for a PG hitting FA in his prime.

didn't see much success the next season when he averaged 15 and 7 and the Suns won 26 games. an okay season stat wise, but not much else.

Tell me dude, with your incredible knowledge, how did you expect this team to do last year? Or this year? How has your track record been at predicting things? Not very good from where I'm sitting. You're like all the other loud mouths.

Keep doubting Dragic. You're dumb enough.

All kinds of Suns fans should come to a site where an NBA All-Team player is ridiculed.

Wonder why you have so few posters Steve? Success is hated. By you as well.

Here's a prediction for you Cheese.

Actually a couple.

Eric Bledsoe will never make an All Star team or All NBA.

Dragic will do so at least twice more.

If Dragic leaves the Suns this year, they will not win 35 games for 3 years.

I'm done here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And when Frye wasn't hitting his 3-point shots, he was a liability at Power Forward and Center, hurting the team (and his fellow front court players) more than he was helping.

To cling to the Ghost of Season Past would not help the Suns take the next step. Not last season. Not any season.

As far as who is our Point Guard . . . Dragic clearly took the job back from Bledsoe tonight and we beat the Mavs on the road. Which is why I proposed the formula of Playing the 3 Point Guards as I did.

That is a fiction. Frye played solid D, and rebounded fairly well. But Frye is gone now, and that is probably right. The Suns needed to develop a younger core, and while Frye was not bad, we need a more defensive oriented center. Len certainly should fill that bill if he can keep out of foul trouble.

Potential trade partners for IT:

Indiana: Huge need for pg. Can't see what could come back though. We might actually be interested in Hibbert, but would have to give up alot just to match up salaries.

Detroit: IT for Monroe. But that would be a steal for Detroit. They would have IT locked up for a great deal for three years for a lame duck C in Monroe. Now, I would give them IT, Plumlee, and the Laker pick (plus more) for Drummond.

Chicago: Always needs insurance for Rose.