Luka Doncic Rookie of the Year

[Covert Rain]

Sure, a lot of guys take time to develop. I'm talking about a guy that went from frustratingly passive to being a cold blooded assassin type.

I think Ayton's passiveness is overblown. Yes he need to be more assertive and that is evident with his blocks (#20) and Free Throw attempts (#19). However, he was also a rookie putting up 16/10 per night. Only 7 centers scored more per game and only 9 rebounded more. He is third quickest Suns player to score 1000 points in a single season. He scored in double digits 61 of 71 games. He had 39 double doubles and only 11 players in the entire league had more. He also led all rookies in efficiency rating.

I think why it's frustrating is because we EXPECT more from him being an overall #1. Most teams would take a rookie putting up the numbers above in a heartbeat. Yes, he DOES need to be more assertive but he is off to a great start IMO.

If he ever figures out his next gear and the light comes on? Man...I hope that happens.

 

[95pro]

??? He was the leader of a UNC team that went 28-3 and spent almost the entire season ranked #1.

Didn’t he play in something called the Olympics too before the pros could?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Jermaine O'Neal?

I thought about jermaine. But he was young and behind a lot of legit bigs when he entered the league. So it’s difficult to tell if he was passive or just not given opportunity early on.

Rookie year:
Arvydas
Dudley
Uncle spliffy
Rasheed

Sophomore:
Same group but sub Brian grant and Gary Trent for Dudley

Again I think a blazers fan could let us know their perspective.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

??? He was the leader of a UNC team that went 28-3 and spent almost the entire season ranked #1.

Uh yeah Jordan was a beast. But he also played for the only man who could stop Jordan - Dean Smith - and he had some established vets ahead of him (Perkins and worthy).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think Ayton's passiveness is overblown. Yes he need to be more assertive and that is evident with his blocks (#20) and Free Throw attempts (#19). However, he was also a rookie putting up 16/10 per night. Only 7 centers scored more per game and only 9 rebounded more. He is third quickest Suns player to score 1000 points in a single season. He scored in double digits 61 of 71 games. He had 39 double doubles and only 11 players in the entire league had more. He also led all rookies in efficiency rating.

I think why it's frustrating is because we EXPECT more from him being an overall #1. Most teams would take a rookie putting up the numbers above in a heartbeat. Yes, he DOES need to be more assertive but he is off to a great start IMO.

If he ever figures out his next gear and the light comes on? Man...I hope that happens.

Eh I don’t think you get it. We aren’t basing our comments on his production. I think everyone here openly admits his production is historic. And we also all admit he’s a rookie and likely just scratching the surface. Rather it’s the eye test that brings us to the passivity talk. He doesn’t establish position and demand the ball well. He’s fine settling for jumpers. He doesn’t bully inferior athletes. It’s watching him that leads us to the passive title.

 

[Covert Rain]

Eh I don’t think you get it. We aren’t basing our comments on his production. I think everyone here openly admits his production is historic. And we also all admit he’s a rookie and likely just scratching the surface. Rather it’s the eye test that brings us to the passivity talk. He doesn’t establish position and demand the ball well. He’s fine settling for jumpers. He doesn’t bully inferior athletes. It’s watching him that leads us to the passive title.

I am not sure what you're saying is really any different than me. I mentioned his blocks and FT attempts which is an indication that he isn't asserting himself enough on the inside. That is all about position and he should be dominating more players down low.

So no...it's not just an eye test. It's evident in those two stat lines what he needs to work on.

When I say overblown it's because other parts of his game actually REQUIRE him to be aggressive. So when someone uses a general term about him being passive I think it's more focused than that and not exactly fair to other parts of his game.

I think we both agree that he needs to be less passive when it comes to positioning and banging bodies. I just wish some days he wouldn't lay up or settle for those jump shots. Just go up there and dunk on someone.

 

[Hoop Head]

Sure, a lot of guys take time to develop. I'm talking about a guy that went from frustratingly passive to being a cold blooded assassin type.

Chauncey Billups, maybe? I don't remember Chauncey doing much before he was a Piston. He bounced around a lot so it might have been finding a team that allowed him to step up his game. Ben Wallace was good in Orlando but managed to step up in Detroit also. He fell off after leaving Detroit pretty quick, and that could be for numerous reasons. That could have been because he got a huge payday or it might have been winning a title, that can satisfy a player's drive. I think Garnett and Paul Pierce took steps back quicker than they should have because they won a title.

Jermaine O'Neal stepped up quite a bit after his 5th year in the league. He left Portland after 4 years but he made a leap in between years 4 and 5. He was averaging 12.9 a game in Indiana to 19 the next year. His role was the same, starting PF, and his minutes increased some but he was a starter both years.

Dragic is an example of someone who turned it on later in his career, I think. He went from being an average starting PG to an All-Star caliber player in that first year under Hornacek.

There are other players that have stepped up later in their career but it's almost always linked to a contract year and the player falling back down to their normal level. I think Jermaine O'Neal early on in Indiana and Dragic in his second run as a Sun are two of the better examples of players stepping up later than usual and staying at a high level beyond that breakout season.

 

[hcsilla]

I think that Billups is an excellent example.

He was an average scoring PG who got traded a lot then he signed to the Wolves as a backup, showed some signs of life, Dumars signed to an MLE-deal and he suddenly became the best player of the Pistons that crushed the Lakers in the 2004 NBA Final.

 

[Hoop Head]

One thing that doesn't show in most standard stats or regularly used advanced stats for Ayton is what he averaged per quarter. I'd be willing to bet he scored 2/3 of his points in the first half compared to the second half and he probably attempted 70% or more of his shots in the first half compared to second. Does anyone know a site with per quarter stats? I can find how much he scored per quarter on NBA.com but I can't figure out how to get it to show a season average, it only shows a complete game log which is 71 games and I don't want to do the math myself to figure out what percentage of his totals were scored in the first quarter and the first half of each game vs what he ended up with for the game.

I know people will blame coaching for that and while coaching is part of the blame it is not everything. Ayton was not assertive in the 2nd half like he was in the 1st. Some nights it seemed like he got his double double so he was going through the motions for the rest of the game, which is part of why Holmes saw a lot of time in the 4th quarter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am not sure what you're saying is really any different than me. I mentioned his blocks and FT attempts which is an indication that he isn't asserting himself enough on the inside. That is all about position and he should be dominating more players down low.

So no...it's not just an eye test. It's evident in those two stat lines what he needs to work on.

When I say overblown it's because other parts of his game actually REQUIRE him to be aggressive. So when someone uses a general term about him being passive I think it's more focused than that and not exactly fair to other parts of his game.

I think we both agree that he needs to be less passive when it comes to positioning and banging bodies. I just wish some days he wouldn't lay up or settle for those jump shots. Just go up there and dunk on someone.

Got it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

One thing that doesn't show in most standard stats or regularly used advanced stats for Ayton is what he averaged per quarter. I'd be willing to bet he scored 2/3 of his points in the first half compared to the second half and he probably attempted 70% or more of his shots in the first half compared to second. Does anyone know a site with per quarter stats? I can find how much he scored per quarter on NBA.com but I can't figure out how to get it to show a season average, it only shows a complete game log which is 71 games and I don't want to do the math myself to figure out what percentage of his totals were scored in the first quarter and the first half of each game vs what he ended up with for the game.

I know people will blame coaching for that and while coaching is part of the blame it is not everything. Ayton was not assertive in the 2nd half like he was in the 1st. Some nights it seemed like he got his double double so he was going through the motions for the rest of the game, which is part of why Holmes saw a lot of time in the 4th quarter.

While I’m unsure I agree with your “why” I certainly agree that his numbers fell of dramatically after the first quarter. And I don’t think it was limited to his scoring - that was just the most obvious. I think his rebounding had a tendency to tail off to. And while we can blame coaching, in part, for that occurring with scoring, I think it’s all on Ayton for that occurring with rebounding.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sure, a lot of guys take time to develop. I'm talking about a guy that went from frustratingly passive to being a cold blooded assassin type.

I am sure if you go back to stories about these guys some were probably about them not being assertive or passive about their game and they needed to step up.

 

[Suns_fan69]

PJ Tucker? I wasn't really familiar with his career pre-Suns but this article was an interesting look at someone that fought his way into the league by being a hustle guy with that fire we'd like to see from Ayton

https://theundefeated.com/features/...ing-my-dream-right-now-guarding-kevin-durant/

 

[1Sun]

PJ Tucker? I wasn't really familiar with his career pre-Suns but this article was an interesting look at someone that fought his way into the league by being a hustle guy with that fire we'd like to see from Ayton

https://theundefeated.com/features/...ing-my-dream-right-now-guarding-kevin-durant/

The difference is that Tucker was a star in college.

 

[95pro]

PJ Tucker? I wasn't really familiar with his career pre-Suns but this article was an interesting look at someone that fought his way into the league by being a hustle guy with that fire we'd like to see from Ayton

https://theundefeated.com/features/...ing-my-dream-right-now-guarding-kevin-durant/

Didn't tucker play oversees as well?

 

[Yuma]

The difference is that Tucker was a star in college.

Lots of guys are stars in college. For example, Kurt Rambis was, and maybe still is, the all time leading scorer at Santa Clara. Steve Nash went there later. Rambis was a big deal when he was there. Lots of guys are the big guy on campus at their college. A lot of times their first adversity is in the NBA.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think that Billups is an excellent example.

He was an average scoring PG who got traded a lot then he signed to the Wolves as a backup, showed some signs of life, Dumars signed to an MLE-deal and he suddenly became the best player of the Pistons that crushed the Lakers in the 2004 NBA Final.

https://fadeawayworld.com/2017/11/09/top-10-best-late-bloomers-in-nba-history/

Almost any four year college player would fit in this category too, if you are comparing with Ayton.

LOTS of players took until 22-23 to finally develop. In fact, this is mroe the rule than the exception.

 

[Hoop Head]

Lots of guys are stars in college. For example, Kurt Rambis was, and maybe still is, the all time leading scorer at Santa Clara. Steve Nash went there later. Rambis was a big deal when he was there. Lots of guys are the big guy on campus at their college. A lot of times their first adversity is in the NBA.

Kurt Rambis was the first "famous" person I ever met. I was like 6, I think. He was on the Suns at the time and he came into my school for a classmates birthday for some reason. He was friends with the kids dad, somehow. Everyone was guessing it would be KJ or Majerle coming in because they were hyping a Phoenix Sun coming in. Then here comes Kurt Rambis' goofy ass to disappoint a bunch of 1st graders. No one knew who he was and I think most kids didn't believe he played in the NBA. You couldn't really tell by looking at him. I know he was tall but when you're that young there isn't much of a difference in height between adults, all of them are much taller than you are.

 

[leclerc]

Luka will be a 6’8” version of Nash. All time great IMO.

That's horse manure right there IMO.

They're both crafty. Other than that... I just can't see it man.

 

[Yuma]

That's horse manure right there IMO.

They're both crafty. Other than that... I just can't see it man.

I haven't seen enough of Luka to see if he has that drive like Nash had to try and win every single game. Sometimes I see Luka's face and he looks like he's just cruising. Not like he's concerned if they lose. Just happy to play the game.

 

[Sunburn]

https://fadeawayworld.com/2017/11/09/top-10-best-late-bloomers-in-nba-history/

Almost any four year college player would fit in this category too, if you are comparing with Ayton.

LOTS of players took until 22-23 to finally develop. In fact, this is mroe the rule than the exception.

These aren't good parallels to Ayton. These guys took time to develop, but it was more skill based. These guys are more closely related to Josh Jackson. With Ayton, it's more about his personality, his aggression. Ayton is already pretty good, and he'll continue to refine his skills, but for him to become the player we envision, he's gotta become a bully. That's my question. Has anybody ever come into the league, kinda passive, kinda acquiescent, kinda defers to his teammates, kinda doesn't impose himself physically and then transformed into a calling for the ball, shaq style fudge you dunking, physically imposing bully murderer?

 

[Yuma]

These aren't good parallels to Ayton. These guys took time to develop, but it was more skill based. These guys are more closely related to Josh Jackson. With Ayton, it's more about his personality, his aggression. Ayton is already pretty good, and he'll continue to refine his skills, but for him to become the player we envision, he's gotta become a bully. That's my question. Has anybody ever come into the league, kinda passive, kinda acquiescent, kinda defers to his teammates, kinda doesn't impose himself physically and then transformed into a calling for the ball, shaq style **** you dunking, physically imposing bully murderer?

No, but I have seen guys like Kawhi Leonard and Hakeem Olajawon become silent assasins. I think Ayton is more like Patrick Ewing. Every once in a while he will throw it down, but is more likely to hit open jumpers, hook shots, spin moves off the back board. Ayton will always be more of a skilled center, than a pounder, I think.

 

[Raindog]

Kurt Rambis was the first "famous" person I ever met. I was like 6, I think. He was on the Suns at the time and he came into my school for a classmates birthday for some reason. He was friends with the kids dad, somehow. Everyone was guessing it would be KJ or Majerle coming in because they were hyping a Phoenix Sun coming in. Then here comes Kurt Rambis' goofy ass to disappoint a bunch of 1st graders. No one knew who he was and I think most kids didn't believe he played in the NBA. You couldn't really tell by looking at him. I know he was tall but when you're that young there isn't much of a difference in height between adults, all of them are much taller than you are.

In the early 1990s, Kurt Rambis lived in the same apartment complex as me (on North 7th Street, near North Mountain Park) for a time right after he was traded to Phoenix. I used to see him occasionally walking around the complex. Also just around the same time, I happened to run into Ed Nealy out with his family at a local Toys-R-Us.

I have mostly kept these stories to myself over the years since, as I didn't want people to think I was boasting.

 

[devilalum]

Comparing Doncic to Ayton is like comparing an all pro tackle to an all pro cornerback.


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[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Dallas’ Luka Doncic won ROY with 98 of the 100 first place votes.

Deandre Ayton finishes third in ROY voting.

Who here still thinks Ayton will have a better NBA career than Doncic?

Keep in mind Tyreke Evans earned ROY over James Harden and Steph Curry.