Memphis and Calipari play the package deal game

[Russ Smith]

Well apparently John Calipari is not to be outdone in the basketball recruiting game of package deals as memphis has now cut 3 package deals this season to get recruits.

First CJ Henry announced he's going to commit to play basketball at Memphis, henry committed to Kansas out of HS but then played pro baseball instead. he was thought to be leaning towards Kansas originally but committed to Memphis. Oh did I mention his younger brother Xavier is the top rated swingman in the country and has both Kansas and memphis on his list too? Xavier insists he'll still visit the rest of the teams on his list but it would be a HUGE shock if he didn't pick Memphis.

Then Jeff Goodman reports the following additions to Memphis' staff.

Aug 26, 2008 | 10:11AM | report this
The Memphis Commercial Appeal confirmed that Memphis will not only hire Bilal Batley, who is close to Tigers commit Nolan Dennis, but the Tigers will also hire Lamont Peterson to an administrative position as well.

Peterson is a Philadelphia trainer who was an assistant coach at American Christian - where current Memphis freshman guard Tyreke Evans attended high school

So using Worldwide Wes and hiring Peterson got them Tyreke Evans, hiring Batley got them Nolan Dennis, and convincing CJ Henry will get them Xavier. To be fair, CJ Henry was a fairly well regarded prospect out of HS so he probably will play at Memphis, not quite as bad as the Romeo Miller package Deal USC did.

 

[Russ Smith]

Additional info, Peterson was Tyreke Evans personal trainer and a volunteer coach at his HS. He said he was considering moving to memphis to keep tabs on Tyreke anyways so this works out well. Calipari insists it's not a package deal said the position doesn't pay well at all(about 35K). No idea what a personal trainer for basketball prospects in philly makes so I don't know if that's a raise or not. Oh btw, another one of Peterson's clients is HS soph Michael Gilchrist one of the top rated players in his class, who coincidentally has memphis high on his list too.

Batley graduated from Oklahoma where he was a student assistant coach to Kelvin Sampson, he was then a part time assistant on Sampson's staff at Indiana until he got in trouble again and lost his job. So he went from working for Sampson to working for Calipari.

CJ Henry will still play pro baseball for the yankees, he'll walkon at Memphis although rumor is he'll quit baseball after his freshman year at Memphis and be on scholarship the next season if he continues to struggle in baseball. So
the Yankees pay his tuition this year, he's fully eligible, as a walkon, and virtually everyone now expects brother Xavier to commit to memphis as a freshman when CJ is a soph.

Ironically all the Memphis fans who were complaining about Baylor hiring John Wall's AAU coach and Ronnie Chalmers leaving kansas now that his son left for the NBA seem to think there's absolutely nothing wrong with Calipari's THREE package deals.

 

[Russ Smith]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/seth_davis/08/26/hoop.thoughts/1.html

Seth Davis story about the NCAA preparing to crackdown on all the package deals in college ball. They have a new 3 person team specifically designed to clean up college basketball and they intend to go after schools that are "too comfortable in their belief it's too hard to prove package deals."

If true guys like Calipari and Tim Floyd are going to need a new trick.

 

[DWKB]

I think the context of a signing needs to be taken in for every instance before we start making blanket "package deal" stipulations.

The CJ Henry signing isn't a package deal. Memphis supposedly has room for him and they don't have to use a scholarship on his spot. Sounds like a good deal for him that has high upside and hardly any downside. They might or might not get X from this and they might have themselves a basketball player out of it.

Of course JaRon, Kareem, and Brandon all went to different schools. We lost out on J'mison Morgan partially because he didn't want to follow Arthur's shoes whom he was rather close to and again that sucks for us. We might lose X to Memphis because of this, but I don't begrudge them signing CJ even though he previously committed to KU.

The issue I have is more of a Delonte Hill situation where you hire an AAU coach or "adviser" before the player has signed and then he signs where the hired gun goes.


Those who have issue with Mario's and his father's associations with KU are really clueless IMO and most likely bitter because their team didn't snag him or they lost to us in the Tournament.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the context of a signing needs to be taken in for every instance before we start making blanket "package deal" stipulations.

The CJ Henry signing isn't a package deal. Memphis supposedly has room for him and they don't have to use a scholarship on his spot. Sounds like a good deal for him that has high upside and hardly any downside. They might or might not get X from this and they might have themselves a basketball player out of it.

Of course JaRon, Kareem, and Brandon all went to different schools. We lost out on J'mison Morgan partially because he didn't want to follow Arthur's shoes whom he was rather close to and again that sucks for us. We might lose X to Memphis because of this, but I don't begrudge them signing CJ even though he previously committed to KU.

The issue I have is more of a Delonte Hill situation where you hire an AAU coach or "adviser" before the player has signed and then he signs where the hired gun goes.


Those who have issue with Mario's and his father's associations with KU are really clueless IMO and most likely bitter because their team didn't snag him or they lost to us in the Tournament.

Out of curiosity why do you think Chalmers wasn't a package deal? I do know his dad coached him in HS and played the game himself but other than his son being a McD's AA what qualified Ronnie Chalmers to be Director of Basketball OPS for Kansas? I thought it was pretty blatantly obvious that they hired Ronnie to help recruit mario so I'm curious what part of that deal I am missing?

As for CJ henry, remember the rumor for months now is CJ was going to Kansas where he'd play with his brother Xavier. Now it looks like Xavier follows him to Memphis. Their dad played at Kansas and Calipari was on staff at Kansas at that time. I looked at a Memphis board yesterday and right on that board they were discussing a rumor from a Kansas board that CJ Henry's dad was moving to Memphis to start a new job. If true I don't see how anybody can not think it's a package deal. I realize these days anybody can make up a rumor like that on a message board but even the Memphis fans were saying that local rumor seemed to confirm his dad had a new job in Memphis lined up. I don't know what the dad does now(think his name is Carl henry). Now if Xavier doesn't go to Memphis then I'll believe it's not a package deal but if he does I dont' see any reason to not think package deal?


In the case of Morgan that whole recruitment was crazy. Morgan picked LSU originally because his AAU coach was an LSU alum and got very tight with one of the assistant coaches at LSU. When they changed coaches they were pushing that assistant as Head coach, he didn't get the job and immediately Morgan wanted out of his LOI. Then Trent JOhnson decides while I've never met the guy, I want to retain that one assistant, and Morgan reconsiders. He goes back and forth with all sorts of rumors flying and winds up at UCLA. Now people think the AAU coach got an Adidas sponsorship for his AAU team out of it although someone on BRO reported recently that Morgan's old AAU team is playing the circuit this year with the same Reebok sponsorship they had before. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if later on it becomes a more lucrative Adidas deal. I never trusted Morgan would wind up at UCLA until he started classes, it was very apparent the people around him(AAU coach, HS coach, mom) all had angles in that situation. I'm quite surprised he wound up at UCLA.



The Rush brothers were never going to be a package deal they were a few years apart and had different reasons. Jaron was going to Kansas until he popped off about Roy Williams wound up at UCLA where he got in trouble for the stuff in HS. That stuff prevented Kareem from Going to Kansas because the NCAA said the guy was a kansas booster, so he went to Missouri. When Brandan came out Jaron offered to pay his way to Missouri(they had no rides left) but he chose Kansas. Brandan never had any involvement with the booster so there was never any problem with the NCAA like there was with Jaron and Kareem.

I do agree all situations are unique, what Davis is saying is the NCAA intends to switch the burden of proof from being on the NCAA to prove it's a package deal, to being on the college to prove it's not. If you hire someone connected to a recruit and get the recruit, within a certain time frame, you have to prove the hiring is legit. I think the defense will be that's impossible to prove, but I think it will reduce this sort of stuff.

The classic example is the USC situations. With both Hackett and Polee USC hired them without interviewing anybody else for the job. The jobs weren't even public, USC is a private institution and they claim they can hire without making the job opening public they have that right. in both cases they not only got the recruit out of it, they avoided having to use a scholarship on the recruit because he gets free tuition from his father working at USC. That's what made their deals so blatant they circumvented the scholarship limits in the process.

USC is currently recruiting a kid named Tyler Honeycutt, his assistant coach in HS is Shawn Bankhead, who played for Tim Floyd at Iowa State. And the rumor amongst So Cal recruiting "experts" is that Floyd has already offered Bankhead a job on his staff despite having no openings. The assumption is Gib Arnold will take a head coaching job next season(he's interviewed for several in the last 2 offseasons) and Floyd will promote guys and make room for Bankhead. And the reason most believe that's true is Floyd's recent history with hackett and Polee.

Until USC gets Honeycutt and hires Bankhead its all conjecture and right now it looks like Honeycutt is going to UCLA. But until he actually commits there's this situation everyone is watching about Shawn Bankhead. I think those are the situations the NCAA is really going after. 2 of the Memphis deals appear to fit that the one for Dennis and the one for Evans.

 

[DWKB]

Out of curiosity why do you think Chalmers wasn't a package deal? I do know his dad coached him in HS and played the game himself but other than his son being a McD's AA what qualified Ronnie Chalmers to be Director of Basketball OPS for Kansas? I thought it was pretty blatantly obvious that they hired Ronnie to help recruit mario so I'm curious what part of that deal I am missing?

An idea of the variety of tasks a DOB operator might be assigned:

http://www.wbca.org/cwb/02septdobresults.asp

Which of these would a man who spent 22 years in the Air Force, participating as a asst coach for some of those years and then coaching state champion high school team not be qualified for? Ronnie had already built up a military career and was receive pensions from the Air Force. His wife had retired from teaching. He was paid $70k for the position (with a bonus this year for NCAA Championship). One of the primary responsibilities of Ronnie not listed in the link is discipline. Ronnie was the guy at KU when off court issues presented themselves. When players wanted to quit, like RusRob or DJack Ronnie was there talking to them.

He wasn't a bum looking for a payday from his kid as he already had money and it's not like he was getting over his pay grade for the position, he had plenty of qualifications for the position, and he was offered it after his kid had committed.

 

[Russ Smith]

An idea of the variety of tasks a DOB operator might be assigned:

http://www.wbca.org/cwb/02septdobresults.asp

Which of these would a man who spent 22 years in the Air Force, participating as a asst coach for some of those years and then coaching state champion high school team not be qualified for? Ronnie had already built up a military career and was receive pensions from the Air Force. His wife had retired from teaching. He was paid $70k for the position (with a bonus this year for NCAA Championship). One of the primary responsibilities of Ronnie not listed in the link is discipline. Ronnie was the guy at KU when off court issues presented themselves. When players wanted to quit, like RusRob or DJack Ronnie was there talking to them.

He wasn't a bum looking for a payday from his kid as he already had money and it's not like he was getting over his pay grade for the position, he had plenty of qualifications for the position, and he was offered it after his kid had committed.

So you genuinely believe that if Mario Chalmers was a business major who couldn't play basketball, Kansas would have hired Ronnie Chalmers for that same job?

To me that's the litmus test, would the guy have been hired without the son, relative etc being a basketball prospect. In this case Ronnie lived and coached in Alaska, you mean in the entire state of Kansas there wasn't one other HS coach with similar credentials, known for discipline, who could have done that job as well as Ronnie?

AS for offering him after Mario committed how can we possibly know that? We have no idea what conversations took place during his recruitment. That's why nobody ever gets in trouble on these deals it's impossible to prove.

I guess I'm just a cynic but I would be stunned if Chalmers wasn't a package deal. If the Wear twins had picked UCLA everyone would say its' because they hired Clay McKnight as video coordinator(his dad coaches the HS the Wears play at). UCLA still hasn't signed a single player from Mater Dei since they hired Clay but once they do everyone will assume it's a package deal. It's the nature of the situation and frankly it's why I wish UCLA had never hired Clay.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

So you genuinely believe that if Mario Chalmers was a business major who couldn't play basketball, Kansas would have hired Ronnie Chalmers for that same job?

Of course, many historically elite hoops programs routinely hire Alaskan high school coaches to prominent positions on their coaching staffs. It is what it is and it's part of the game but pretending nothing was up and that there were no conversations of such until after Chalmers was committed reeks of blatant homerism. Most rational KU fans will admit the Chalmers situation was sketchy but in the end don't care because it helped them win a title.

 

[DWKB]

So you genuinely believe that if Mario Chalmers was a business major who couldn't play basketball, Kansas would have hired Ronnie Chalmers for that same job?

To me that's the litmus test, would the guy have been hired without the son, relative etc being a basketball prospect. In this case Ronnie lived and coached in Alaska, you mean in the entire state of Kansas there wasn't one other HS coach with similar credentials, known for discipline, who could have done that job as well as Ronnie?

AS for offering him after Mario committed how can we possibly know that? We have no idea what conversations took place during his recruitment. That's why nobody ever gets in trouble on these deals it's impossible to prove.

I guess I'm just a cynic.

Well I think I'm a bit more lenient than you are I guess. Of course Ronnie getting to know Dooley and Self through the recruitment of his son added in his exposure to the people he essentially interviewed with. Then again, I've gotten jobs because I knew the bosses daughter, because we belonged to the same fraternity. I know guys who got jobs because they went to the same college as the person interviewing them. That's just how business works.

I haven't seen any reason why Mario wouldn't come to KU if his father wasn't hired on as DOB Ops. Ronnie was set up to earn a decent paycheck wherever he ended up living off his Air Force pension. It's not even a job that pays outrageous salary. It's also a job that a former military man who has been an asst coach and head coach for Air Force basketball team, has a bachelor's degree in business administration, and a master's degree in human resource management and development is qualified to do. In fact, it's a perfect job for his qualifications.

It comes down to if you believe the people running your program are sincere and honest people or if they are slimy and dirty. People like Mao are gonna believe one way and people like me another. I just wish he'd consider the wholeness of Ronnie Chalmer's resume, and not just the fact that he took a job coaching his son's HS after he retired from the Air Force. Ronnie had a whole career before that job despite the fact that he did seem to be great at doing it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well I think I'm a bit more lenient than you are I guess. Of course Ronnie getting to know Dooley and Self through the recruitment of his son added in his exposure to the people he essentially interviewed with. Then again, I've gotten jobs because I knew the bosses daughter, because we belonged to the same fraternity. I know guys who got jobs because they went to the same college as the person interviewing them. That's just how business works.

I haven't seen any reason why Mario wouldn't come to KU if his father wasn't hired on as DOB Ops. Ronnie was set up to earn a decent paycheck wherever he ended up living off his Air Force pension. It's not even a job that pays outrageous salary. It's also a job that a former military man who has been an asst coach and head coach for Air Force basketball team, has a bachelor's degree in business administration, and a master's degree in human resource management and development is qualified to do. In fact, it's a perfect job for his qualifications.

It comes down to if you believe the people running your program are sincere and honest people or if they are slimy and dirty. People like Mao are gonna believe one way and people like me another. I just wish he'd consider the wholeness of Ronnie Chalmer's resume, and not just the fact that he took a job coaching his son's HS after he retired from the Air Force. Ronnie had a whole career before that job despite the fact that he did seem to be great at doing it.

I see it slightly differently I think some people just see it as the way things have always been done and as long as you don't do it over and over it's ok. That's the difference between many and say Tim Floyd. Chalmers was a key guy for Kansas to get so they went the extra step. With Floyd he does that everywhere he works, always has, always will. he's constantly trying to get something over on everyone else like in his case circumventing the scholarship limit by hiring the dad so the son gets free tuition.

I agree they likely met Ronnie during recruiting Mario but it just seems very unlikely to me that they decided you know this guy would make a hell of a Director of Bball OPS completely independent of his sons recruitment? And even if you did believe that as a coach, you have to realize the rest of the basketball world is going to assume it's a package deal. IIRC it wsa actually Danny Manning getting promoted that opened that job up for Chalmers dad, ironic since Mannings dad got hired by Kansas during his recruitment all those years ago. I just think some coaches would avoid the perception of wrongdoing there but Kansas figured we haven't done this in a long time so we can survive it. It certainly worked they won an NC with Chalmers being a huge factor in it. But my own personal opinion is no doubt it was a package
deal.

Not saying I have some inside knowledge that proves it just if it walks like a duck it probably is a duck.

Kansas always has talent they didn't need to hire Chalmers dad to get a good player they always have good players, I think for some reason they just really wanted Chalmers and took the risk to get him. The only guy on the Kansas staff that I know much about is Townsend because he has bay area roots on was on the Cal staff when Bozeman got in trouble. In fact he was directly named in some of that but I think in that case Bozeman was doing bad things and the assistants were largely in a bad situation they were all young and afraid of losing their job. Same thing Harrick did to Michael Holton at UCLA when Holton actually turned him into UCLA for breaking rules with the Collins twins.



I have much more problem with guys like Calipari and Floyd who seem to base their entire plan for their program around how far can I bend the rules without getting in trouble.

I just used Chalmers because it was in the Seth Davis story. I think right now the 2 that really stand out are Memphis and SC.

I don't like the comparison to other businesses it's a unique situation. hiring a relative at my current job doesn't influence the decsision of someone else the way it can in recruiting. I've yet to hear a single coach ever admit to a package deal they all insist it's just coincidence yet its so common some of them have to be actual package deals don't they?

 

[DWKB]

I agree they likely met Ronnie during recruiting Mario but it just seems very unlikely to me that they decided you know this guy would make a hell of a Director of Bball OPS completely independent of his sons recruitment?

Actually I think Ronnie asked about the position in particular to Self when it opened up. It wasn't that Self was eying Ronnie for the job, it was that Ronnie was eying the job for himself. I don't know if that makes a difference here or there, but that is the story both have relayed to the press. I know it's often looked at through Self's perspective and addresses his character, but the type of man Ronnie is related through the people he's associated with and the career he's had before this job makes it rather offensive that people would assume he would be a part of anything underhanded.

Kansas always has talent they didn't need to hire Chalmers dad to get a good player they always have good players, I think for some reason they just really wanted Chalmers and took the risk to get him.

See, to me if Self and the Jayhawks were open to a package deal for the sake of the deal, Steve Downs would be the lead candidate. The involvement of Steve in Micah's life and career and the toying with KU they did would be ripe for an advantageous situation to occur. If KU actually packaged Ronnie over Steve then I'd have to think Steve would have never let Micah sign with us. Steve Downs as a package deal for Micah, totally buy it, Ronnie Chalmers for Mario, not so much. To me it's the difference in the character of the fathers.

 

[Russ Smith]

What was your opinion of the quote from Ronnie after he left where he essentially said this was the plan all along? he made it quite clear he'd always planned on leaving Kansas when Mario did. Now maybe that means my son has NBA money now I don't need to work(Mario was a 2nd rounder so he didn't get a huge deal) but it sure sounded like he was saying I coached my son in HS, I wanted to be part of his college career, and once that was over I planned on leaving all along.

I guess the exact wording was the goal was to come here and win an NC we accomplished that. he's now moving to Miami to follow Mario and while he said he's moving on to something else nobody seems to know what that is.

I guess I'm just a cynic but it's very hard for me to believe his taking that job was not connected to Mario signing with Kansas.

 

[DWKB]

What was your opinion of the quote from Ronnie after he left where he essentially said this was the plan all along? he made it quite clear he'd always planned on leaving Kansas when Mario did. Now maybe that means my son has NBA money now I don't need to work(Mario was a 2nd rounder so he didn't get a huge deal) but it sure sounded like he was saying I coached my son in HS, I wanted to be part of his college career, and once that was over I planned on leaving all along.

I guess the exact wording was the goal was to come here and win an NC we accomplished that. he's now moving to Miami to follow Mario and while he said he's moving on to something else nobody seems to know what that is.

Well first off Mario signed a 3yr/$2.3M contract with the first 2 yrs guaranteed. It's not like he gonna be poor, but Ronnie doesn't have to work because as I've said before he has a nice Air Force pension after serving for 20+ years.

Again, I don't think Ronnie was performing the job because he wanted or needed the job or the money. It was to be close to his son. Had the job never presented itself, Ronnie would still have moved to Lawrence/KC to be close to his son. Why not, he and his wife were retired. It's the same reason he coached his son's HS basketball team, not because he needed the money, but to be close to his son. Same reason he's moving to Miami. I don't fault a father for that.

Look, KU has had it's fair share of off court problems like most schools that recruit high end talent do. Russel Robinson wanted to quit, Darnell Jackson the same, plus the ignorant decision to accept rides to Lawrence from an alumni, Brandon Rush and his parking tickets, the stupid Morris kid and his BB gun, etc.. Mario doesn't have a story like that. I believe Ronnie is a major reason for this.

I guess I'm just a cynic but it's very hard for me to believe his taking that job was not connected to Mario signing with Kansas.

Connected, yes. Ronnie wouldn't have asked Self about the job had Mario not signed with us. There is no denying they are connected. Father wanted to be close to his son, school had a position available, he asked about it.

What you are implying is not a connection, but a payoff. Mario/Ronnie --as far as I can tell-- were not paid off to come to Kansas. That's where we are not seeing eye to eye here. It's about intent and I don't see any malicious or devious intent here, if not considering the coaches character, then definitely considering the fathers.

 

[Skkorpion]

Business as usual. Nothing stunningly deviant here.