Money guesstimates from Republic. Vujanic for 1.6? Trade Jake?

[Yuma]

• Steve Nash's contract leaves the Suns with estimated cap space of $5.5 million. They also could use exceptions of about $1.6 and $5.1 million to sign players.

• The big man wish list includes Detroit's Mehmet Okur, Golden State's Adonal Foyle, Sacramento's Vlade Divac and the Suns' own free agent, Antonio McDyess.

Looking at those two bullet points, I remember reading that it would take about 1 to 1.5 million to lure Vujanic away from Europe, since we could only pay 300K towards his buyout and he had to pay the rest. Seeing an exception of 1.6 million, could that be money targeted for Vujanic. Someone on the board posted earlier that BC said he was looking at Nash and two young PGs for the Suns, with Barbosa being one of the young PGs.

5.1 Million exception could be a nice center like Mark Blount from Boston. I remember seeing him last year since I watched Boston play for a friend of mine who is a Celtics fan. He is more mobile and faster than any of the centers we have now. Can run the fast break well for a big man. Blocks shots well. Rebounds good. Overall a big hustle type of player. He is an emerging guy and I think he could be had for the 5.1 exception. I think guys like Divacs, Dampier, Foyle, etc. will be offered more than that.

5.5 cap space estimated to be left for the Suns. Vroom will take approximatly .5 million of that! That leaves 5 million. McDyess can be had for less than that.

So maybe, barring a trade, we could end up with Vujanic, a Mark Blount type center, and McDyess along with Nash and Vroom. That's not bad added to what we have now.

PGs Nash, Barbosa, Vujanic, Eisley
SGs JJ, Jacobson, (Vujanic)
C Mark Blount (?), McDyess, Jake Vohshul, Vroom, Lampe
PFs Amare, (McDyess, Vroom)
SFs Marion, Zarko, (Jacobson)

Looking at that, assuming we get a MLE center, and McDyess, wouldn't Jake be a nice trade piece? Lots of teams would like a back up center like Jake!
Maybe Jake is a trade piece BC is looking at? We look very light depth-wise at SG, or is that reserved for Kobe, or Vince?

 

[elindholm]

Steve Nash's contract leaves the Suns with estimated cap space of $5.5 million. They also could use exceptions of about $1.6 and $5.1 million to sign players.

Please remember this the next time we argue about the "authority" of the Arizona Republic.

This is just flat-out wrong. Teams who start the off-season way below the cap do not get the MLE and million-dollar exceptions:

A team may lose their exceptions (Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player), or never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then teams don't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost.

For example, with a $42.5 million salary cap, assume it's the offseason, and a team has $34 million committed to salaries, along with a mid-level exception for $4.5 million, a traded player exception for $3 million, and an unrenounced free agent whose free agent amount is $2 million. Their salaries and exceptions total $43.5 million, or $1 million over the cap. What if their free agent signs with another team? Their salaries drop to $34 million, so their salaries and exceptions now total $41.5 million. This total is below the cap so the team loses their mid-level and traded player exceptions.

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. However, if a team salary is ever so low that they're not going to be over the cap even if they use all their exceptions, then the concept of an exception which allows them to function above the cap is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#17

 

[Yuma]

My only question to all that is when is the official salary total for the new season counted? I ask when because the cap number is not official yet to determine exceptions.

Hypothetically, if the salary for the upcoming season isn't 'set" yet, then signings, trades, etc., we make now will determine if we are over or under the cap. Seeing as how the cap hasn't been determined officially yet, how can they determine if any exceptions exist for a team?

I think timing is the key here. We haven't set our lineup for the upcoming season yet, officially either.

"If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost."

I guess I am not sure when LAST season ends, and the NEW season begins. I mean if we were "under" during the LAST season, and the NEW season has yet to begin, we could be over by the time the new season or year begins. Right?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

My only question to all that is when is the official salary total for the new season counted? I ask when because the cap number is not official yet to determine exceptions.

Hypothetically, if the salary for the upcoming season isn't 'set" yet, then signings, trades, etc., we make now will determine if we are over or under the cap. Seeing as how the cap hasn't been determined officially yet, how can they determine if any exceptions exist for a team?

I think timing is the key here. We haven't set our lineup for the upcoming season yet, officially either.

The contracts wont be signed until July 13th.

The cap will be officially announced around July 10th, after the league audits are done.

This is the July Monatorium, nothing official can happen till its over.

 

[Yuma]

The contracts wont be signed until July 13th.

The cap will be officially announced around July 10th, after the league audits are done.

This is the July Monatorium, nothing official can happen till its over.

So when we were under the cap, that was last season? After the July break we could be OVER, and thus have an MLE?

I know the AZ Republic is lazy, but they just regurgitate whatever the Suns tell them, right? If so, the Suns believe they have the exceptions. Just guessing..

 

[Chaplin]

So when we were under the cap, that was last season? After the July break we could be OVER, and thus have an MLE?

I know the AZ Republic is lazy, but they just regurgitate whatever the Suns tell them, right? If so, the Suns believe they have the exceptions. Just guessing..

And how do you think we'll go OVER the cap, considering that is illegal?

 

[Yuma]

And how do you think we'll go OVER the cap, considering that is illegal?

We could go over, not by much, with a trade couldn't we? I mean if we sign guys with our remaining cap and go right up to the cap, then make a trade within the appropriate salary percentage range, we could go over the cap legally, right?

 

[JCSunsfan]

A team may lose their exceptions (Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player), or never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then teams don't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost. .

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#17

That's an interesting article. It says that you only lose the exceptions IF your combined salaries fall so low THAT THE USE OF THE EXCEPTION DOES NOT TAKE YOU OVER THE CAP. So its conceivable that you could time the renouncing of salaries and the signing of free agents so that you don't fall below that threshhold. I can't see how this could be done, when signing any FA to a $10 million dollar salary.

Anyone know when the deadline is for renouncing rights to FA's. Has it happened already?

If it is as Yuma has supposed, that the year begins July 14, then all we have to do is be within 5.5 million of the cap by then. This is pure speculation, but there is at least some indication that some creativity might product the mid-level exception for us.

Hmm.

 

[SunsTzu]

I'm pretty sure if you are under the cap as of July 1st you do not get the exceptions.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm pretty sure if you are under the cap as of July 1st you do not get the exceptions.

But technically, we are not under the cap right now. We have not yet renounced our FA's--unless I missed something.

 

[elindholm]

It says that you only lose the exceptions IF your combined salaries fall so low THAT THE USE OF THE EXCEPTION DOES NOT TAKE YOU OVER THE CAP. So its conceivable that you could time the renouncing of salaries and the signing of free agents so that you don't fall below that threshhold. I can't see how this could be done, when signing any FA to a $10 million dollar salary.

Right, exactly. I was confused by this too, so I've PM'ed capologist for a clarification. I'll report back if and when he responds.

However, here's my current take:

If the Suns are ~$16 million under, they could have room to sign Nash for $10 million even while counting their MLE and million-dollar exceptions. If they don't quite have room, they can renounce the million-dollar. So technically they would still have the MLE, but here's the catch: They can't use their remaining cap space unless they renounce the MLE, because the MLE puts them over (or very close to) the cap. Technically, all cap exceptions are on your current team salary until you renounce them.

In other words, they have roughly $5-6 million to play with, which can be considered either the MLE and (maybe) the million-dollar exceptions, or "normal" cap space if those exceptions are renounced. But the numbers come out basically the same either way.

That's a guess, but I've been thinking about this all morning, so I'm fairly confident about it.

 

[elindholm]

We have not yet renounced our FA's--unless I missed something.

This could be correct, but I'm 99.9% positive that the Suns will have to renounce McDyess before they can sign Nash.

 

[elindholm]

Yuma, I may owe you an apology...

It's possible that what the Republic said was not wrong, only misleading:

Steve Nash's contract leaves the Suns with estimated cap space of $5.5 million. They also could use exceptions of about $1.6 and $5.1 million to sign players.

It says the Suns could "also" use those exceptions. It doesn't actually say that the Suns could use the exceptions and the cap space, although that's certainly how most people would read it.

But if by "also" what they really mean is "instead," then it could be correct:

The Suns "have" cap space. (True.)
The Suns "could use" exceptions (True.)

But...

Part they left out: The Suns can't use their cap space if they use their exceptions -- they get only one or the other.

 

[scotsman13]

And how do you think we'll go OVER the cap, considering that is illegal?

this is how i believe it works. the nba has a soft cap. lets say that that cap is 45 million and the suns are sitting at 39.5 after signing nash. that means we have 5.5 left. lets say we sign some center to that. last year we didnt sign anyone to the MLE or the 1.6 LE so we have those this year (you get them every other year). if you dont use them the year before it can be used the next year but you wont ever get more then 1 every other year. these exceptions are over and above the cap. the cap is only good for the signing of outside players up to that amount.

there are a number of ways you can get around the cap. the biggest is bird rights. how this plays out is that if the player has played under contract for 3 years for your team or you traded for during their currant contact you can paid them anything up to the max contract for that contract group (first contract after rookie tops out at 25% of salerey cap, next one can go up higher). also the contract can increase only a set % per year.

first round draft picks have a set salery that is taken off your cap if you are under it even before you have signed them. (the main reason the suns traded their pick this year). second round picks dont have a set salery so they dont count against the cap until they have been signed. so if you wait till you are already over the cap to sign your second round picks, you can go over the cap very easily with this. if you are over the cap i believe you can only sign them for the nba min contract or some or all of the exception that you have. (i.e. lampe was giving a contract starting at 1 million from part of the 1.6 LE).

the longer a player has played in the nba the larger the min contract is. so a rookie min contract maybe 340,000 while a 10 year vet maybe at 1 million (i,e scott williams).

also one more thing is that the cap is only judged but what players are under contract at the end of the season. so if the suns were to buy out eisley contract for 6 million. he would still count agains this years cap but wouldnt be on it at the end of next year.

all of this is based on my understanding of the cap. it is much more complex then what i have gone over here.

 

[elindholm]

this is how i believe it works. the nba has a soft cap. lets say that that cap is 45 million and the suns are sitting at 39.5 after signing nash. that means we have 5.5 left. lets say we sign some center to that. last year we didnt sign anyone to the MLE or the 1.6 LE so we have those this year (you get them every other year). if you dont use them the year before it can be used the next year but you wont ever get more then 1 every other year. these exceptions are over and above the cap. the cap is only good for the signing of outside players up to that amount.

That's not too far off, except for two things:

1. You can't start below the cap line, add FAs to get yourself right to it, and then add the MLE on top of that in the same summer.

2. Teams over the cap can use the MLE every summer, not just every other summer. You are right about the million-dollar exception, however.

 

[George O'Brien]

this is how i believe it works. the nba has a soft cap. lets say that that cap is 45 million and the suns are sitting at 39.5 after signing nash. that means we have 5.5 left. lets say we sign some center to that. last year we didnt sign anyone to the MLE or the 1.6 LE so we have those this year (you get them every other year). if you dont use them the year before it can be used the next year but you wont ever get more then 1 every other year. these exceptions are over and above the cap. the cap is only good for the signing of outside players up to that amount.

That's not too far off, except for two things:

1. You can't start below the cap line, add FAs to get yourself right to it, and then add the MLE on top of that in the same summer.

2. Teams over the cap can use the MLE every summer, not just every other summer. You are right about the million-dollar exception, however.

My memory is hazy, but I think at one time the MLE was restricted to every other year or something like that. In that case, "banking the MLE' made sense. It never applied to getting an extra bite at the apple when under the cap.

 

[elindholm]

I think at one time the MLE was restricted to every other year or something like that.

The MLE "is new to the current CBA."

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#17

 

[scotsman13]

It's possible that what the Republic said was not wrong, only misleading:

Steve Nash's contract leaves the Suns with estimated cap space of $5.5 million. They also could use exceptions of about $1.6 and $5.1 million to sign players.

It says the Suns could "also" use those exceptions. It doesn't actually say that the Suns could use the exceptions and the cap space, although that's certainly how most people would read it.

But if by "also" what they really mean is "instead," then it could be correct:

The Suns "have" cap space. (True.)
The Suns "could use" exceptions (True.)

But...

Part they left out: The Suns can't use their cap space if they use their exceptions -- they get only one or the other.

no i dont think so. how it works is that you dont get the exceptions until you have reached the cap. if you are under it then you dont have those exceptions.

so if the suns sign some player for 5.5 to get bring them right up to the top of the cap. then the exceptions would come but not before.

 

[SweetD]

So they resign McDysee and then gete the MLE to someone.

 

[elindholm]

no i dont think so. how it works is that you dont get the exceptions until you have reached the cap. if you are under it then you dont have those exceptions.

I agree it's confusing, which is why I keep posting references. Why don't you have a look at them and tell me what you think.

If a team has Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player Exceptions, and they are below the cap, then these exceptions are added to the team's team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap....

Similarly, a team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions....

So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents....

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room....

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#18

 

[scotsman13]

thanks for the links elindholm.

hehe now this is the type of post i like. there is basic misunderstanding. and some resources that you can look into but on a whole it comes down to intrepitation of the and remembering the teams pass transactions.

 

[zett]

So If we sign 1 more free agent and that takes us to about 2 mil below the cap , Then we resign McDyess for say 2.5 mil does that mean we could get the exemption, or is the McDyess signing not legal?