More Man Defense

[George O'Brien]

D'Antoni is committed to playing less double-team defense, and that means playing mano-a-mano even against opponents such as Yao and O'Neal.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/1220sunsnb1220.html

It looked like that was what he was doing, but it is interesting to see it confirmed. The Suns' defense was awfully predictable and good passing teams just chewed them up.

FJ was committed to a kind of scramble defense that demands high levels of energy all the time. That is why he was constantly complaining about their energy levels. Tight man defense is more about quickness and reaction than running back and forth across the court toward the open man.

I have always felt that double teams should be used only against offensive super stars like Duncan to get the ball out his hands and against really inept ball handlers. But the rest of the time, man defense is better because it leaves fewer open shots and it makes it easier to block out for rebounds.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Here, here.

D'Antoni is right. The Suns are actually a pretty good team defensively. They have pretty decent man-to-man defenders in Steph, JJ, Marion, Amare, Jahidi, Barbosa, and even Voskul. This allows for more defensive accountability.

The constant trapping tended to wear our own players down and caused confusion. Our half court press was used predicably and way too often to be effective. For a press to work on the NBA level it has to be intense and all-out, and it needs to surprise.

We'll suffer some with the man to man, when Penny or Casey are in the game. Those might be good times to run a zone or a trapping D. There is always someone on the floor they can cover though.

While the wins aren't here yet, it seems to me that D'Antoni has shown a lot of insight into his team. His comments are making sense. They also seem to inspire some hope.

 

[elindholm]

Oh my God, a sportswriter actually spelled "mano-a-mano" correctly, for probably the first time ever.

 

[devilalum]

Isn't it funny how the zone works so well against the Suns but so poorly for them?

 

[George O'Brien]

Isn't it funny how the zone works so well against the Suns but so poorly for them?

The zone works very well for teams with straight up shot blockers against teams without great outside shooters. The plus of a zone is that it permits tall but slower players to be effective on defense and picks are not as big a threat.

One of the biggest problems with the zone is the same as with double teams - preventing offensive rebounds. In the case of double teams, someone has a clear path the basket for put backs (not to mention backside cuts). Likewise, the zone does not have someone matched to each player, so they are open to getting to the basket for put backs.

I'm not really confinced that the zone is a good formation for a team that is playing "small ball" because it negates any advantage created by the player's relative quickness.

 

[Errntknght]

There are times when heavy doubling, scrambling D can take another team out of it's game but like most gimmicks, your opponents will solve it if they see enough of it. San Antonio was very slow solving it last year but when they settled down they beat us rather handily. It was easy to see that fact was lost on FJ when he was crowing about how it put a scare into SA - and easy to predict we'd see a lot more of it this year.

It's a relief to see and hear that D' is not going to keep on with that plan. I think the first quarter of the Portland game sealed his decision - we doubled everyone who touched the ball in the low post and got creamed. Hopefully, we'll improve the way we double team in cases where it is necessary or we use it as a surprise tactic. For example, if you're not in a favorable position don't bother - long distance doubles, like FJ used so much with Casey, just don't work.

I don't have a problem with the team using a true half-court trap a fair amount - meaning, the trap that you spring just as the opponents bring the ball across the half court line. That doesn't burn a lot of energy and it's been fairly effective. (I'm not sure what others mean when they're complaining about our 'trapping' and 'half-court press'. Trapping, in my understanding is a double team where the guy is pinned against a sideline or, better, in a corner - and is not done with the intent of just getting the ball out of a certain players hands as is normally the case with a vanilla double team.) Seattle played a very effective trapping defense years ago - with Nate McMillan spearheading it. They trapped almost every time the ball got near a sideline or in a corner. Ainge tried it one year with the Suns and it was pathetic. So I'm not recommending the full blown thing, by any means.

I hope the Suns don't waste much time and effort on zone D for a while - the first thing is to get the man-to-man working effectively. I would expect D'Antoni has quite a lot of experience running a zone so should be able to get us doing it well easier than most NBA coaches would. Well enough to use it as a change of pace, anyway. NBA cpaches have the advantage when it comes to using zone techniques within a man-to-man since that has a very long history in the league.

Zones have another weakness - the offense gets to choose the matchups... just thought I'd toss that out there...

 

[George O'Brien]

A key to the trap is rotation. If a player leaves his man to trap, then everyone has to rotate so that the open man is on the opposite side of the court. Otherwise, it is too easy to pass out of the trap to an open man.

 

[Errntknght]

If you're talking about a sideline or end-corner trap then the key is to turn the man with the ball toward the sideline just before the double team. That keeps him from seeing the double coming and from splitting the two defenders once the trap takes place. It's a thing of beauty when it's done right - the only passing lanes the guy has are to either side down the sidelines since his back is toward the middle of the court. Needless to say you don't so much worry about rotating in the classic manner, you just make sure you guard the guys that are in position to bail him out.

The trap at the half court line is another thing - rarely can you prevent the guy from seeing the double team coming. Consequently, all five defensive players have to be involved before the springing of the trap, if you want to have much hope of it working. Normally, teams put the other three in a zone like pattern - the C at about the FT line and the other two guys trying to get in whatever passing lanes the trapped player has. Of course, it's pretty hard to use this trap effectively on a good, experienced PG, so it's often used in conjuntion with a full court press where you try to get the ball out of the hands of the PG before it gets to mid-court. The 8-sec clock helps, too, since a team may not have time to do anything but cross the line into the trap even though they can see it coming.

I've often wondered whether fans would like the game if the league would go to a six-second clock on getting ball over mid-court. I'm assuming that would be short enough that a good full court press would have a decent chance of forcing a time violation. That would be a heck of an incentive for teams to press much more, especially when behind near the end of the game. Of course, teams would also counter by developing strategies to get the ball across in time and, almost certainly, strategies for attacking the press. I'm pretty sure I'd like the game better but there is the possibility that it would change it too drastically. In the long run it might change the basic equation of the game so that sheer height lost a fair amount of it's value.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght

I've often wondered whether fans would like the game if the league would go to a six-second clock on getting ball over mid-court. I'm assuming that would be short enough that a good full court press would have a decent chance of forcing a time violation. That would be a heck of an incentive for teams to press much more, especially when behind near the end of the game. Of course, teams would also counter by developing strategies to get the ball across in time and, almost certainly, strategies for attacking the press. I'm pretty sure I'd like the game better but there is the possibility that it would change it too drastically. In the long run it might change the basic equation of the game so that sheer height lost a fair amount of it's value.

The current rule is 8 seconds. As it is, very few teams press because they have to deal with a possible three on two if the ball is advanced. Most of the press tactics fail to guard the guy who took the ball out, so it is not that hard to beat.

Often the purpose of the press is to force the opponent to bring someone out to take the pass. This slows down their ability to set up their half court offense.

 

[Errntknght]

"The current rule is 8 seconds. As it is, very few teams press because they have to deal with a possible three on two if the ball is advanced."

Sure, but if the chances of forcing a time violation were considerably better - say, because of less time, wouldn't teams be more inclined to take the risk? Or were you conceding that point?

 

[George O'Brien]

My point is that for the press to work, the defenders have to guard the guy who took the ball out. This means three players in the backcourt guarding two players. If the offense gets the ball across the line, then it is three on two at the other end.

I've seen more of the press in college games than in the NBA. Teams that can complete long passes often get relatively easy shots. On the other hand, teams that have to pull someone into the backcourt to take the pass are delayed in getting their offense started.

Based on seeing in college games, it seems like the teams that do the press best are both very quick and have a shot blocker guarding against easy layups.

The Suns press is not really that agressive since they do not guard the guy who threw the ball out. In a few cases they have caught the point guard unawares and haved forced a turnover, but usually the main result is to get the ball out of the PG's hands.

If they were to guard the guy who takes the ball out, the Suns could force some 8 second violations; but they will also give up some easy layups.