More on Three Point Shooting

[Irish]

We got into three point shooting a bit in another thread http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/update-on-shaq-118668-4.html. It was dsappointing that the Suns were unable to sign a proven three point shooter like Brent Barry or Lue (Posey is another but well out of the Suns price range).

The fact that they did not addresss this issue means either they couldn't or they think they can teach some of their current guys to be better shooters.

The odd part about the Suns is that they have added three point shooters every year:

2004-05 Jimmy Jackson
2005-06 Tim Thomas
2006-07 Jalen Rose (didn't get playing time but shot well)
2007-08 Giricek

You never know who will get bought out, but there is a fair amount of luck involved with someone like Tim Thomas. He was awful with the Bulls and did great with the Suns. He did well with the Clippers his first year and awful last year.

Can the Suns teach some of their guys to become serious three point threats? It looks like they think so. They certainly have some guys who knew how to shoot the three in their playing days:

Porter- Career 38.6% - Last five season went 39.5% and the rest over 40% for three.

Majerle - Career - 35.8%. Between 19901991 at 34.9 jumped to 1991-92 38.2%

1991-92 38.2%
1992-93 38.1%
1993-94 38.2%
1994-95 36.3%

With weaker teams, his percentage dropped.

Kerr - Career - 45.4% Too bad he's not a shooting coach.

Assuming Gentry continues the D'Antoni offense, we can assume the three will be very important.

2004-05 - 796 of 2026 39.3% Total Scoring 110.4 ppg
2005-06 - 837 of 2097 39.9% Total Scoring 108.4 ppg
2006-07 - 795 of 1965 39.9% Total Scoring 110.4 ppg
2007-08 - 694 of 1764 39.3% Total Scoring 110.1 ppg

The 2007-08 atats included 47 games by Marion who shot 58 of 167 (34.7%) and Banks (25 of 65 for 38.5%).

Replaced by Giricek who shot 19 of 50 for 38% over 22 games.

For this season, the Sun need to replace 282 three point shots (3.4 per game) out of 1764; and makes of 102 of 282 attempts.. Overall, the guys they lose shot 36.1%.

 

[AceP]

Giricek is not a great shooter at all. Playing for the Suns, he did just around 35% in regular season and the 20 some % in playoff was a nightmare we'd like to forget. Barnes is a decent 3p shooter when in good form. I don't think he will NOT do any worse than Giricek.

Besides, even if we could get a good 3p shooter, there is no more room in rotation. No more minutes to share with another player.

Irish, maybe u have to hope for Diaw to finally get his 3p shooting going.

 

[Mainstreet]

Besides, even if we could get a good 3p shooter, there is no more room in rotation. No more minutes to share with another player.

IMO there is always room for a good 3 point shooter. He might not crack the Suns rotation on a regular basis but there will always be nights where a good 3 point shooter is needed to unclog the lane when their outside shooting is off. The Suns certainly could have used another good 3 point shooter last season. As you correctly noted, the Suns could not count on Giricek getting the job done. I'm not totally satisfied this problem has been corrected.

 

[Bufalay]

how many times have you posted this same thread?

 

[Irish]

Giricek is not a great shooter at all. Playing for the Suns, he did just around 35% in regular season and the 20 some % in playoff was a nightmare we'd like to forget. Barnes is a decent 3p shooter when in good form. I don't think he will NOT do any worse than Giricek.

Besides, even if we could get a good 3p shooter, there is no more room in rotation. No more minutes to share with another player.

Irish, maybe u have to hope for Diaw to finally get his 3p shooting going.

Giricek hit 19 of 50 in 22 regular season games for the Suns (38%) but shot 79 of 159 overall (49.7%). What is more critical is that he was useless in the playoffs 6-18 overall and 1 of 4 for three.

 

[AceP]

Irish, we r talking about a shooter that consistent enough to spread the floor, 3p made per game is actually more important than 3P%.

For Giricek, 38% might be good, but with less than 1 3p made per game, no opponent will put a defender on him at crutch time. Only 1-4 in 5 playoff games? What a nightmare ...

Actually, many big playoff shooters were not so impressive with their 3p%. Posey is all about 38% in both of his championship run, Horry is even lower. But they do attempted more and hit more.

Barnes had one great playoff run just a little more than 1 year ago. 19 3p made in 11 games, that is 1.73 made per game, with 42.2%. FAR FAR better than Giricek. Let's hope Barnes can play his best season with us.

 

[Errntknght]

Three point shooting is far down my list of things to fret about for the upcoming season. If nothing bad happens with Bell, Nash and Barbosa we ought to be in pretty good shape - essentially we traded Marion for Barnes and that's likely a small plus, maybe more. I expect that Hill has been working on his three pointer so maybe another little plus.

Backup PG is at the top of my list - will Steve really be able to go off the floor and not leave the offense in shambles? I'm hoping Porter will have an offense that is not totally dependent on Nash's sorcery.

What mental and physical shape will Shaq be in?

What about our three semi-head cases: Diaw, Amare and Barbosa? Can Porter light some kind of a fire under Boris? Get Amare to play some decent D without instant foul trouble. Shore up Leandro's fragile ego - and get him to develop his mid-range game. Progress on two fronts would be wonderful.

I'm so looking forward to this season - the last two years it grew increasingly excruciating and frustrating just to watch the games and that's supposed to be the fun part. I suppose there is no way Porter can live up to my expectations... I'm trying to keep them in check. It'll help a lot if he can just act like a normal coach on the sidelines - can you imagine a coach who behaves like he had some faith in his preparation in practice after D'A, Skiles and Ainge. I'm not complimenting FJ by leaving him off the list, its that I've managed expunge him almost completely from my memory.

 

[nowagimp]

Three point shooting is far down my list of things to fret about for the upcoming season. If nothing bad happens with Bell, Nash and Barbosa we ought to be in pretty good shape - essentially we traded Marion for Barnes and that's likely a small plus, maybe more. I expect that Hill has been working on his three pointer so maybe another little plus.

Backup PG is at the top of my list - will Steve really be able to go off the floor and not leave the offense in shambles? I'm hoping Porter will have an offense that is not totally dependent on Nash's sorcery.

What mental and physical shape will Shaq be in?

What about our three semi-head cases: Diaw, Amare and Barbosa? Can Porter light some kind of a fire under Boris? Get Amare to play some decent D without instant foul trouble. Shore up Leandro's fragile ego - and get him to develop his mid-range game. Progress on two fronts would be wonderful.

I'm so looking forward to this season - the last two years it grew increasingly excruciating and frustrating just to watch the games and that's supposed to be the fun part. I suppose there is no way Porter can live up to my expectations... I'm trying to keep them in check. It'll help a lot if he can just act like a normal coach on the sidelines - can you imagine a coach who behaves like he had some faith in his preparation in practice after D'A, Skiles and Ainge. I'm not complimenting FJ by leaving him off the list, its that I've managed expunge him almost completely from my memory.

Prepare yourself, take the rose colored glasses off, the suns have alot of issues to address, and a new coach isn't enough to solve their problems. With lopez and barnes they should be better defensively, but they really arent that close to the lakers or hornets in talent. They dont have the insideout capability of those teams, and are quite a bit older at the skilled positions. When "A" isnt working the answer isnt necessarily "not A", its a bit too simplistic.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm so looking forward to this season - the last two years it grew increasingly excruciating and frustrating just to watch the games and that's supposed to be the fun part. I suppose there is no way Porter can live up to my expectations... I'm trying to keep them in check. It'll help a lot if he can just act like a normal coach on the sidelines - can you imagine a coach who behaves like he had some faith in his preparation in practice after D'A, Skiles and Ainge. I'm not complimenting FJ by leaving him off the list, its that I've managed expunge him almost completely from my memory.

I'm looking forward to the season as well and I'm hoping Coach Porter gets the job done. I'm an optimist at heart with my feet firmly planted in reality. I will give Coach Porter his opportunity. However, in football terminology here is how I kind of look at it. With D'Antoni the Suns ran an option system with Nash making most of the decisions as an option quarterback on offense. Sadly the defense was lacking. Now with Porter, I'm wondering if he will be letting Nash make the decisions on offense or whether he will do more play calling. I think the answer lies if if Porter can implement a much more defense oriented strategy while still keeping a smooth operating team on offense.

However, here is what gets me really excited... the rookies and Barnes. What if Dragic is good as advertised and can play the backup PG position. Also the Suns have Singleton to give a look at PG. What if Lopez brings some crazy energy to the team as a backup center? Now we hear Barnes will be starting ahead of Hill. These are some exciting times. I know the whole thing could crash but what if it works? This gets my adrenaline flowing. It's all based on hope now. We'll find out about the reality later.

 

[Errntknght]

gimp,

Prepare yourself, take the rose colored glasses off, the suns have alot of issues to address, and a new coach isn't enough to solve their problems.

I listed my top five issues - how do you twist that around to be rose colored glasses? Obviously, we're going to have to see what Porter can do - but, IMO, a new coach was the best single step the Suns could take so at least there is a ray of hope.

With lopez and barnes they should be better defensively, but they really arent that close to the lakers or hornets in talent. They dont have the insideout capability of those teams, and are quite a bit older at the skilled positions.

What the heck was there in my post this is an answer to? What kind of glasses are you wearing?

When "A" isnt working the answer isnt necessarily "not A", its a bit too simplistic.

Now at least we have a comprehensible disagreement - assuming A = D'A. I'm thrilled with the simple "not A" for starters. If that isn't what you meant then the last line is an unintelligible as a response to my post as the first two parts.


Hmmm, maybe you interpolated into my enthusiasm for the upcoming season the idea that I thought the Suns were going to be top flight contenders. It isn't that at all, its just that I'm expecting to see some rational behavior on the part of our coach after years of panicked reactions. I'll be quite happy if Porter gets close to the best out of the team and gets them peaking as we head into playoffs - assuming we do well enough to make the playoffs.

 

[Irish]

E-Knight is not much of rose colored glasses guy. He stated his priority list, not that addressing the top issues will be enough.

As it was, there are a few people who have stated that they have huge concerns about the Suns three point shooting having only three upper llevel three point shooters since it means opponents will be able to pack the paint on defense.

If Barnes playes 30 plus minutes, this issue might go away. The "hope" is that Barnes will be able to get more open looks with Nash at PG than Baron Davis and defenses worrying Amare and Shaq.

IMHO, the real problem is that currently Nash and Barbosa are below average defenders and thus should not be matched together. Even if Dragic is everything hoped for, there is no reason to believe he will be a quality, volume three point shooter right away. (Nash in his rookie year averaged one attempt per game. His rookie year he hit 22 threes in 65 games).

 

[AceP]

Barnes will definitely play 25-30 minutes since there is no way Hill will be on court for more than 25, that's suicidal. He should make it 36% with more than 1 made per game. Such an expectation is not high at all. I would say, that's the bottom line for him to stay in rotation. I'm relatively optimistic that he could reach 38% + 1.5 made per game.

If there is a problem in our 3p shooting, I think it comes with the fact that we can never play Nash + Barbosa together. That case, we have to hope Dragic develop a consistent enough 3p shooting in no time ...

 

[Irish]

I have to admit I was floored by this comment in Coro's article about Barnes:


http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/33642

There is no doubt that there has been consideration for the move, just as the much-debated idea of starting Leandro Barbosa instead of Raja Bell also gets discussed.

I'm curious who is doing the discussion. This is the first time I recall it even coming up. For the Suns coaching staff to even consider it, they must be either crazy or think Leandro has made a major improvement in his defense. It seems awfully improbable.

 

[mojorizen7]

I have to admit I was floored by this comment in Coro's article about Barnes:


http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/33642



I'm curious who is doing the discussion. This is the first time I recall it even coming up. For the Suns coaching staff to even consider it, they must be either crazy or think Leandro has made a major improvement in his defense. It seems awfully improbable.

I wasn't surprised by that comment at all. If you recall an earlier thread/poll where we asked everyone what your starting lineup would be i voted
NASH
BARBOSA
BARNES
STAT
SHAQ
While obviously the worries over the lack of defense w/Nash & Barbs is a legitimate concern...my hope is that the coaching staff has been and will continue to work diligently w/Barbs on his man to man defense. He's got the physical tools. I think it's possible that we may see this starting 5 by midseason if not sooner if Barbs responds to coaching.
It's an offensively aggressive lineup as well as an athletic,quicker lineup. We can throw Barnes at the opposition's best offensive player on most nights....if Barnes gets smoked,Raja can answer the Bell(sorry).
It also gives us a few veterans to run with rookies Dragic and Lopez off the bench.
DRAGIC
BELL
HILL(6th man)
DIAW
LOPEZ
= solid IMO.

 

[AceP]

Starting Nash and Barbosa together is unacceptable defensively. Even D'Antoni didn't dare to do that! Our offense wasn''t the problem. We need to get better in defence. I don't even understand why such thing got mentioned in first place.

 

[mojorizen7]

Starting Nash and Barbosa together is unacceptable defensively. Even D'Antoni didn't dare to do that! Our offense wasn''t the problem. We need to get better in defence. I don't even understand why such thing got mentioned in first place.

As it stands today i fully agree...... assuming Barbs hasn't made any defensive progress.

 

[Irish]

This off season has been frustrating because there are so many issues that have not been even discussed by the print media.

1. Has Barbosa made any progress on defense? In previous years he played for Brazil rather than skills development. He has lots of bad habits on defense such as too much gambling, not getting low enough in hiis stance, mot moving his feet enough, losing vision on the ball, etc. This is all "coachable" stuff, but so there is always hope.

2. Has Diaw developed more of a killer instinct? My feeling has been that some of his passivity is due to not being strong enough, but some could be his personality. I'd love to hear he's working out the way Tucker is who added 15 pounds of muscle.

3. Has the team made some scheme changes on offense? There are numerous hints about the defense, but the problem of guys being too reliant on Nash's special talents haven't been brought up. They keep raving about Dragic, but don't tell us any more than we knew from the draft profiles of what he brings to the talble.

Part of the problem is that reporters keep asking different questions: Shaq's weight, will Lopez contribute, will Dragic's deal EVER get finalized, etc.