My 2 Cents on Levi Brown

cardsfanmd

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Just want to apologize now for the length. This definitely wasn't intended to be Mitch/Doug long :D

Levi play is the culmination of 4 factors IMO. First, he's essentially playing out of position. Secondly, Russ Grimm is overrated to begin with and coaching a scheme that isn't his IMO and doesn't require a lineman to do what he drafted Levi to do. Third, when Whiz took over the team he surely must have thought we were going to run a whole lot more. Finally, Levi was a reach because the team had painted itself into a corner.

Calvin Pace was a prototypical 3-4 OLB who was reached for AND drafted out of position. I dont know anyone who watched Wake Forest football and thought he was a first round prospect. When he didn't perform until we switched to the 3-4 he was labeled a bust. He has since proven that label to be incorrect.

Antrel Rolle fits in the same category. He came from a college program that had a very strong pass rush and called for their DBs to be very physical both at the line and in run support. His ability to press at the line and disrupt routes was fantastic. Courtesy of his strength at the LOS and the team's pass rush, he rarely had to cover his man longer than 2-3 seconds. For reasons unclear to me, he was drafted by a Cardinal team who wanted him to play 7 yards off the LOS and stick with a receiver for 5-7 seconds while the QB took his time through his progressions because there was no need to hurry against our porous pass rush. I think he is much better safety than most seem to give him credit for, but again, his skills portray him as more of a SS than a FS. Had he been drafted into a system that embraced his talents he would still be a CB (and a very good one IMO) and be earning more of that 8 mill he's making this year.

Watching Levi at Penn State you saw a few things. He was a definite road grader in the run game. He was a hard worker and a solid individual. He also was average in pass protection. He was a left tackle. Like Rolle and (to a lesser extent) Pace, he is being asked to play to his weaknesses rather than his strengths. Being switched form the left to the right is also a much bigger deal than Grimm led on to IMO. I understand that he switched sides as a pro, but Russ was also a HOFer and a guard. There is just too much muscle memory involved. That is like asking guys who have been golfing or swinging a baseball ball strictly right-handed for 15 years to suddenly switch and go at it lefty. There are going to be a super-ambidextrous few that can do it immediately, but most are going to struggle for a while or never be as good as before.

Russ Grimm came here thinking they were going to make a Pittsburgh West, but is now being asked to help duplicate The Greatest Show on Turf--in other words, he's in O-Line Coach HELL. Here is a guy who played on a bullying O-line for his entire career. He was exceptional at run blocking and that leads one to believe that he is probably better suited to teach that aspect of the position. So here we have a run-block oriented line coach teaching his guys to pass protect for 3/4 of the game. On top of this, he is literally only given 5 guys to block with 90% of the time.

The first hole in the road was losing Leonard Davis. My opinion is that it had next to nothing to do with his on-field play. He said he didn't want to be here and had shown himself to be inconsistent with his commitment and motor. I personally, dont blame LD entirely for this, as the organization was still a joke and the way the players were still being treated in comparison with players from other clubs when he got here was sad. Either which way, Whiz didn't want to set a president by paying an underachiever who publicly displayed affection for other teams(especially douchebags like Dallas:D).

When Whiz took this team over he, like most all of us, assumed Leinart would be our starter. Whiz had good intentions for Matty and tried to give him what every young QB needs to be successful, a strong running game.So here we were with no starting quality OTs on the team, two of the top 10 receivers in the league, an aging, but future HOF running back who gained over 1,000 yards the year before behind a putrid line and a young and fragile franchise QB. Logic tells you that we were going to take the best OTs available with our first 2 picks. Looking back, I should have really known there was no real chance we'd take AP. The truth is that nobody thought he would be this good or the guy would have went #1, whether the Raiders took him or traded the pick. Either which way, we should have known we were stuck with Levi.

I believe the coaching staff knew he had slow feet and thought they could counteract that by switching him to the right side and hiding him from the premium pass rushers. Because Leinart is a southpaw, they were able to say that a great RT was necessary. In reality, I believe it was an excuse to keep the media from immediately hounding them about being the first team in the history of the NFL draft to select a RT with a top 10 pick.

In the end, after this year when Warner retires and Matt takes over things will drastically change. Asking a lineman with Brown's skill-set to pass protect all day would be like having Dockett primarily play NT in our 3-4. This team is going to be so different when we're ramming the ball down your throats with Beanie and Hightower setting up the play-action bomb to Fitz. I am excited about the future, I just wish it wasn't getting in the way of the present.
 

Russ Smith

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Agree with some but not all.

I actually just suggested on another thread we move Levi to LT and Gandy to RT. Kurt is not agile but he is pretty good sliding right to get more time to throw, the problem is when he does it now he always runs into Levi's man who has beaten Levi. If that man is coming from Kurt's left, he has further to go when kurt slides right.

I completely disagree on Rolle. Given how often I'm wrong I like to take advantage of when I'm right. Antrell Rolle is NOT a CB, never was, never will be no matter what system he's in. At Miami he blitzed a lot, he wasn't used all that much as a cover CB, they had a great pass rush, and the college rules were allowing more contact. The problem is the NFL changed the rules the year before he got there and started enforcing all the grabbing and holding by CB's, call it the Patriots rule since they were doing it the most.

So here we are needing a CB and we pick a kid whose entire game in coverage is based on something the NFL just made a penalty. If you remember the camp reports that year over and over we were told Rolle is going to lead the world in PI penalties if he doesn't stop grabbing and holding so much. Rolle was never fast for a CB and he seemed to lose a step with the knee problem early on. I said he was a FS, I now think he's a SS.

He has become a positive factor on the Cards but with his contract eventually something has to give, he's likely to want more than he's worth on the next contract I don't expect him to be a card that much longer.
 

joeshmo

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Levi would not do well as a Gaurd. Gaurds can be smaller, but they cannot be soft physically or mentally. Levi is soft in every aspect, he is weak. He shys away from contact, its why you always see him just standing there before the whistle even blows.
 

Zeno

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Levi would not do well as a Gaurd. Gaurds can be smaller, but they cannot be soft physically or mentally. Levi is soft in every aspect, he is weak. He shys away from contact, its why you always see him just standing there before the whistle even blows.

Just as an example-Lutui for all his faults plays right up until the whistle(and sometimes beyond) and seems to look for contact on every play...Brown doesn't do that, at all.
 

Folster

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Agree with some but not all.

I actually just suggested on another thread we move Levi to LT and Gandy to RT.

Wouldn't moving Levi to LT match him up with Jared Allen when we play Minnesota (I think he plays the R DE)? If so, Allen's going to crush the single game sack record.
 

Snakester

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First on Calvin Pace. Your right about he was drafted too high. He should have been a second rounder. He was a DE in a 3-4 and was not a great pass rusher. He was decent though. I thought he would give us about 7 sacks a year once he was in about his third year or so. One thing so many don't realize is that with most players it take 3 or 4 years for them to grow and learn a position to get good and even then only about half of those are keepers in the end.

It's still too soon to give up on Levi. Or Lutui for that matter. Both are young and still learning. Gandy is passed his prime and is on the downside of his career. He should be made a backup and signed to a two million a year contract. Even though Reggie Wells is in the prime of his career he should be moved to either center or made a backup. He should also get a 2mil contract.

You hit the nail on the head with Rolle. He was pure and simple an in your face, at the LOS attacking CB. His game was to hit his man at the line, take the timing out of the throw and make every thing happen in the first 10 to 15 yards. If the play was more than that the safety was responsible. The Cardinals completely put him in an opposite situation as you describe by putting him in 7yards back and making him a cover corner. He was not used to his strengths and it showed. I think he would make a fine cb if used the way he was at the U. Other wise I think he will be fine at either free or strong safety. Many people seem to forget that Adrian Wilson was pretty bad his first couple of years. But the coaches learned to use him correctly and play to his strengths. They need to do that with Rolle as well.

It's too bad that Leonard Davis went to Dallas. He was our best offensive lineman easily. If the Cardinals would have put him at guard or right tackle and left him there he would have been fine. Of course the Cowboys gave him 40 mil to play for them and the Cards were not going to pay that kind of money to keep him.

One thing that I would like to see is once we get a couple of decent backups on the O-line that we start rotating them in to let the other linemen get a breather. The Cardinals I fear are going to make another huge mistake by putting Herman Johnson at tackle. He clearly doesn't have the feet to be a tackle. I know Grimm looked at him and thought to himself ( he's big, tall, has long arms, he looks just like a right tackle, thats where I'll put him). He just forgot to look further and realize that he doesn't have the foot speed to mirror and slide with speed rushers. I think if Johnson is put back at his natural position of Left Guard and left there for a few years he could become a dominating player.

Instead I think he will be forced to play tackle where he will fail and become ridiculed by the fans until he is released. Hopefully the coaches eyes are open and they don't let this happen but it doesn't look good.
 

bg7brd

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There must be something going on mentally with Levi. On the play before Warner had his fumble, Warner was in shotgun and LSH was lined up in the backfield. The play was a pass play designed for LSH and pobably would have been good for a long gain but Levi blocked Lutui's man leaving his man untouched. Warner was forced to throw early and it was incomplete. The next play Levi went to do the same thing except he quickly realized his mistake and made a half arsed block on the DE who still got to Warner and caused the fumble. I don't know enough about OL schemes and what Levi's assignment was but it looked pretty obvious to me who his man was. Somethings not right with Levi.
 

JeffGollin

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You may be right.

This is Leonard Davis all over again. LB is WAY better than most posters claim, IMO.
Levi may be Leonard Davis all over again, but so what?

In both cases, our offensive line play wasn't very good and both players didn't always get the job done.

Maybe it was due to coaching/teaching. Maybe each player is unhappy or distracted about something. It kills me to see Leonard suiting up for the Pro Bowl wearing a Team Felon helmet. But when he was with us, he wasn't doing the job. So what were we supposed to do? Continuing to let him hurt us with the same dumb mistakes and risking getting our QB killed?

Same deal with Levi. Two penalties yesterday. Chronically gets out-quicked by faster outside pass rushers. Not consistently getting the job done.

The issues we have to deal with are: (1) Is he receiving good coaching? (2) Is he receptive to good coaching? (3) Can his deficiencies be coached out of him? or (4) Is he physically incapable of handling quick pass rushers?

I don't know what the answer is (i.e. patience? demotion? "the highway?)" but I do think we have an emerging problem. But before we bring out the long knives, we should make certain that any move we make (whether it be with Levi or any other Cardinal player) should meet the single criteria of: "Will the move net out to be a "positive" for our football team - i.e. if we were to move Levi, we'd better have someone equal or better to replace him with).
 

Crazy Canuck

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This is Leonard Davis all over again. LB is WAY better than most posters claim, IMO.

Levi joins a long list of Cards or former Cards that have been, at some relatively recent point, written off by ever so prescient posters:

Leonard Davis
Thomas Jones
Calvin Pace
Adrian Wilson
Antrel Rolle
Deuce Lutui
Matt Leinart
JJ Arrington
Alan Branch
 

Russ Smith

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Wouldn't moving Levi to LT match him up with Jared Allen when we play Minnesota (I think he plays the R DE)? If so, Allen's going to crush the single game sack record.

I'm saying if we can't bench him and apparently that's how the coaches feel since he's still starting.
 

Mulli

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Levi joins a long list of Cards or former Cards that have been, at some relatively recent point, written off by ever so prescient posters:

Leonard Davis
Thomas Jones
Calvin Pace
Adrian Wilson
Antrel Rolle
Deuce Lutui
Matt Leinart
JJ Arrington
Alan Branch
Kurt Warner. Larry Fitzgerald (to some extent).
 

dreamcastrocks

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This is Leonard Davis all over again. LB is WAY better than most posters claim, IMO.

It is just so painful because you passed on a once in a generation player for a guy that should have been drafted late in the 1st round. Furthermore, by now Levi should be progressing and gradually getting better, but he is regressing. Players drafted later than his spot and in later rounds are going to the pro bowl. Yeah, that part is on Levi. But a lot of it is on Grimm too. He hand picked Levi and he is a bust.
 

joeshmo

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This is Leonard Davis all over again. LB is WAY better than most posters claim, IMO.

5 sacks, 5 penalties, the 2nd most QB hits allowed, the third most QB pressures allowed, and a 2.99 yards per carry off his backside in 5 games. You are right we are clearly not giving him enough credit.

He is clearly getting better then last year when he gave up 11 sacks, 8 penalties, league leader in QB hits and pressures allowed, and a 2.25 yard per carry off his backside.

Whats not to love.:sarcasm:
 
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Crazy Canuck

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There must be something going on mentally with Levi. On the play before Warner had his fumble, Warner was in shotgun and LSH was lined up in the backfield. The play was a pass play designed for LSH and pobably would have been good for a long gain but Levi blocked Lutui's man leaving his man untouched. Warner was forced to throw early and it was incomplete. The next play Levi went to do the same thing except he quickly realized his mistake and made a half arsed block on the DE who still got to Warner and caused the fumble. I don't know enough about OL schemes and what Levi's assignment was but it looked pretty obvious to me who his man was. Somethings not right with Levi.

Some consideration should be given that when using a silent snap count, and not being able to clearly see the ball snapped, tackles are at a particular disadvantage. If Levi is off by a second, or perhaps less, he (and any other tackle, I'd venture) is in trouble.
 

Shogun

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Levi would not do well as a Gaurd. Gaurds can be smaller, but they cannot be soft physically or mentally. Levi is soft in every aspect, he is weak. He shys away from contact, its why you always see him just standing there before the whistle even blows.
Agreed 100%. He would fail at guard as well. His current play (which has been worse than usual) has shaken any faith or hope I had in him to be adequate at any position on the line.

Cut our losses and move on.

I agree about Rolle and tenure with the Cards. Had be been drafted by a Cover 2, he would have thrived and been successful. I still have hope that he'll be a solid free safety.
 

dreamcastrocks

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5 sacks, 5 penalties, the 2nd most QB hits allowed, the third most QB pressures allowed, and a 2.99 yards per carry off his backside in 5 games. You are right we are clearly not giving him enough credit.

He is clearly getting better then last year when he gave up 11 sacks, 8 penalties, league leader in QB hits and pressures allowed, and a 2.25 yard per carry off his backside.

Whats not to love.:sarcasm:

LMAO.
 

Doug

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Wow guys....The only real crime was taking an ORT in the top 10.The rest was for need and I can see that happening all over he league and failing.

The lambs have had near the top pick and done just as bad.They took howie longs boy as the second pick in the draft and he's undersized and unable to use what his dad used in Oakland to get big and make the pro bowl.

This year they picked the 2nd player in the draft at OT and have'nt gotten anything in return just like they did'nt with Barren from FSU in the top 10 when they drafted him.Now that Pace is with the Bears Barren is moved to OLT and still stinks.

You just never want to be picking in the top 10 if you can help it is the key to this whole thread.I think we are on the right track.None of us know whats going on behind the walls at the CARDINALS.Levi can be fixed and can come back to the form that he used to get us through a great playoff run last year.

We don't know how bad his ankle is.The missed play with taking the wrong man is no excuse and I'm sure he saw it at least 10 times in the offensive lineman room with Grimm.

I don't even want to start thinking about next year when we might lose Rolle and Dansby to teams with a will to spend more money than us.Its just proof we are very deep (or were) and we will keep losing players in their prime or just at their peak.

I also want to go back to the top thread and beg to differ that Kurt Warner is gonna retire after this year.Where does that come from?

If Kurt Warner was to win the SB with this team this year he would still return to play out his contract he signed this last offseason.I'd bet anything on it.His shoulder is hurting him more than his hip.I'm not even sure the hip is hurting at all.The hit he took in the 9ers game would have put other qb's on the shelf.He took himself out of the Jags game with a 31 point lead due to the shoulder.

I'm too busy thinking of the next game with the giants to worry about next year.I'm sure coach Whiz will take care of the problem as he took care of the running game usage this last week.Coach Whiz is right on top of the Levi problem and is doing the best thing WE as the CARDINALS can do to make that situation improve.Lets all keep a cool head and not look at the failures of the past and move on to the good things we have in the very near future to make us ALL VERY HAPPY.:D

One thing for sure this is the best CARDINALS message board bare none.They kill each other on the other board and eat their young and stalk each other with vendetta's.I know all about it.No peace to be found.The past just won't ever let anyone find peace over there.We can have it here.I feel it.Thanks JIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Dr. Jones

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Shogun and Joe have been all over this.

Levi is horrible. And for such a reach, he has been one of the biggest busts that Green / Whiz have made in the first round. Hell, Branch is even proving some worth right now.


Not only is Levi horrible.... He is REGRESSING!!! That is the worst part of all of this.
 

Duckjake

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Kurt Warner. Larry Fitzgerald (to some extent).

Let me get my media guide and I can list, oh say, 50-100 guys that have been written off by oh so prescient posters that never amounted to squat.

Captain of that team is Wendall Bryant.

That same list would include numerous guys that many prescient posters claimed were going to be pro-bowlers when in reality the only reason they were in the NFL was that they had latched onto the Cards roster.

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone from the Kool-Aid Club said all (insert name of worthless player here) needs is more time. Yeah, more time to find a job selling cars.

It goes both ways.
 

Doug

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So if you're a positive person you automatically fall into the KOOLAID club?

Duck you picked the seahags to win yesterday.Now you got a very enjoyable win and yet you don't seem to be too happy.You want to find something from a great win to bring some down.

We are a work in progress.I assure you every week we are working on the bad things that happened the week before.Even if it was a very,very solid win.That some thought the other team was gonna win.:D


What are the names of the other clubs? Crow eaters club.
Sky is falling club.
Only post on games we lose club.
Find the weakest link on the team club.
Eternal optimist club.
Koolaid club.
DuckJake is my favorite poster club.:D Thats me all over.Peace Brother:)
 
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Duckjake

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So if you're a positive person you automatically fall into the KOOLAID club?

Duck you picked the seahags to win yesterday.Now you go a very enjoyable win and yet you don't seem to be too happy.You want to find something from a great win to bring some down.

We are a work in progress.I assure you every week we are working on the bad things that happened the week before.Even if it was a very,very solid win.That some thought the other team was gonna win.:D


What are the names of the other clubs? Crow eaters club.
Sky is falling club.
Only post on games we lose club.
Find the weakest link on the team club.
Eternal optimist club.
Koolaid club.
DuckJake is my favorite poster club.:D Thats me all over.Peace Brother:)

My favorite is the Pollyanna Doug Club. :koolaid: :D

If you had been paying attention you would know that the majority of my posts are based on the recent history of whichever player or group of players that get bashed the most here play the best the next week. Working great so far with the exception of Stand Around Levi Brown. But we'll figure out something for him too.

Note also my prediction on the Cards game had the Cards ahead 27-3 at halftime and blowing the lead. Worked like a charm. The Cards got ahead and didn't blow the lead and won 27-3. Beat that one.
 
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Russ Smith

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Doug, the problem with Levi, and no fault of his own, is not only has he just not been a good player, but we passed on a HOF RB to take him. That's a huge reason why people are so hard on Levi, it's not just he's not good, it's how insanely good Adrian Peterson is.
 

Doug

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My favorite is the Pollyanna Doug Club. :koolaid: :D

If you had been paying attention you would know that the majority of my posts are based on the recent history of whichever player or group of players that get bashed the most here play the best the next week. Working great so far with the exception of Stand Around Levi Brown. But we'll figure out something for him too.

Note also my prediction on the Cards game had the Cards ahead 27-3 at halftime and blowing the lead. Worked like a charm. The Cards got ahead and didn't blow the lead and won 27-3. Beat that one.


You're my man Duck.I see some good dancing on that bottom part starting with Note.All I noted is you picked the seahags to win.Nothing I can do or say can beat you man.You're one of best posters here and you have the best intentions at heart for the CARDINALS as much or more than I do.I know you only want the best for the team.Never will I ever try to take that from you.

You know I only kid with you.I hope so.I'm just glad to be here and if I've made you mad at me.I apologize.I know I post too much when I'm excited about our team really coming together.Its not even about yesterday as much as I really see an opening for us on National TV next Sunday night and Collinsworth having to eat his tounge.Even tho he graduated from Florida as a so so reciever.I've never liked him as a broadcaster.He's a nice guy but I can't put my finger on just one thing.Its a bunch of things that irk me about his style.His opinions seem to change just a little too fast as the wind blows.Must be the Bengal in him.:D
 

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