NCAA looking at eligibility of 3 of best incoming freshman hoops stars

[Russ Smith]

This started yesterday with the news the NCAA had informed Memphis incoming frosh Will Barton he was academically ineligible due to questions about the legitimacy of some of his transcript. Barton is appealing the ruling and has already been admitted by Memphis.

Now Gary Parrish reports that Barton's cousin Josh Selby has still not been cleared to play at Kansas due to questions about his amateur status.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...cruit-not-cleared-by-ncaa?tag=headlines;other

Same story talks about Enes Kanter and UK who I've mentioned before, Kanter reportedly paid for play in Turkey and virtually nobody expected him to be able to play without at least some suspension, there's now questions if he'll be cleared to play at all.

Selby's situation was detailed months ago in a couple of big newspaper articles where his mom admitted to having an adviser who just happened to be Carmelo Anthony's business manager. In the paper the mom said that the guy was just advising them on the recruiting process but the NCAA is reportedly looking at whether the relationship went further and Selby's amateur status was violated.

In other college hoops news an online story in the Chicago Sun Times said superstar recruit Anthony Davis has committed to Kentucky although he hasn't made it public yet. In the story the author commented on rumors that Davis' family had been asking to get paid by saying the rumor was Davis had taken 200K to commit to UK. These sort of rumors appear about Chicago area recruits fairly commonly, what's unusual is that they list a very specific amount that Davis reportedly got. his dad of course denies it says the story is preposterous but it's sure unusual for a newspaper even online to print such a specific allegation.

 

[Dback Jon]

College Basketball is so corrupt, at the highest level

 

[Russ Smith]

College Basketball is so corrupt, at the highest level

Agreed but with most of these kids the alleged corruption occurred before they got to college.

But it's all part of the same machine if you will.

This is all fallout from the Mayo and Rose mess a few years ago. The NCAA got embarassed letting guys like that play and then later declaring them ineligible.

Renardo Sidney was the first guy to face the wrath of that and this year it appears it's going to happen again.

 

[Dback Jon]

Agreed but with most of these kids the alleged corruption occurred before they got to college.

But it's all part of the same machine if you will.

This is all fallout from the Mayo and Rose mess a few years ago. The NCAA got embarassed letting guys like that play and then later declaring them ineligible.

Renardo Sidney was the first guy to face the wrath of that and this year it appears it's going to happen again.

Agreed it is the AAU system that is corrupt - and criminal. Putting a good portion of the AAU heads in jail would help

 

[Southpaw]

Pump Bros.

 

[Russ Smith]

Pump Bros.

Yep they're going after them hard too.

It'll be interesting to see the fallout of all this. Kids continue to all want to go play for Kentucky and it sure looks like everyone thinks calipari cheats they just need proof. It'll be interesting to see if/when he gets caught and what impact this stuff has on recruiting. Will schools stop going after these kids with questionable backgrounds or continue to pursue them and hope they are eligible.

 

[DWKB]

To elaborate on the Selby situation from the KU sources, Bay and Selby's mother, Maeshon Witherspoon, have known each other since elementary school.

The opinions being shared to KU sources:

Multiple sources have told me that the Josh Selby stuff is totally overblown and over hyped right now and that no one has even made a peep that Josh won't be ruled eligible. In fact, I was told this in regards to the NCAA looking into Josh's relationship with Bay, "There's nothing there."

Of course, depending on your preconceived slant, I'm sure it's either because Selby is a good kid who's talent brings a spotlight on him or it's because someone, probably Kansas, greased the wheels to cheat again.

 

[Russ Smith]

To elaborate on the Selby situation from the KU sources, Bay and Selby's mother, Maeshon Witherspoon, have known each other since elementary school.

The opinions being shared to KU sources:



Of course, depending on your preconceived slant, I'm sure it's either because Selby is a good kid who's talent brings a spotlight on him or it's because someone, probably Kansas, greased the wheels to cheat again.

I have no idea if Selby will be cleared or not but anybody that is saying there's no peep he might not is simply not dealing in reality. It's August the fact that Selby hasn't yet been cleared is already news because most schools already know if their recruits have been cleared or not. Selby is already part of a much smaller subset that hasn't been cleared for a specific reason, in his case apparently questions about his amateur status.

The pre-existing relationship situation is something that will obviously play a role in Selby's case if anybody finds out that there was any money changing hands with this guy "Bay". They have to determine if such a relationship would be allowable under the pre-existing relationship ruling or not. Remember Melo got Mayo in trouble at USC because he gave him free tickets to a Lakers game and then USC claimed that a prior relationship existed and therefore Mayo was allowed to take the tickets. The NCAA said the prior relationship was based entirely on basketball and as such did not exempt Mayo from the rule. If any money changed hands here, the NCAA would likely be trying to determine if the relationship changed when Selby's basketball prowess became apparent. In other words was Bay giving money to the family before Selby was a recruitable athlete or did he just start doing that when Selby's talent became apparent.

The KC Star story about this is pretty clear, if the NCAA believes there's an agreement either written or verbal that Selby will be a future client of Frazier's(Bay) then he's violated his amateur status. The question is not an easy one to answer since Bay says he has known Selby for years. Bay admits he gave Melo money and clothes when he was young and playing on Bay's AAU team, even that is questionable if it violated Melo's amateur status or not since Bay had known him since he was 10 years old. It's not a black and white issue at all.

It's got nothing to do with Kansas beyond they took his LOI knowing this story was out there(the NYT story about Selby pre-dated his signing with Kansas). Nobody is saying Kansas paid him they're saying his relationship with Bay and the former school official may have voided his amateur status.



Regarding the allegations that recruit Anthony Davis got paid to commit to UK that story gets bigger. Wed the Chicago Sun Times removed the paragraph with that allegation after threat of lawsuit by lawyers representing UK. Today the Sun Times printed a much larger article that says they have sources at 3 other colleges who allege Davis' father demanded anywhere between 125K and 150K to commit to their school.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/preps/2571594,CST-SPT-cruit06.article

 

[Russ Smith]

To me the interesting question in this story about Selby is if the NCAA ultimately rules him ineligible(not saying they will) does it then follow that they will then take a hard look at Carmelo Anthony and whether he was eligible himself?

If they rule this guy Bay gave Selby money and had an agreement so Selby isn't eligible, how can they then not look at Melo when Bay has already admitted he gave him money, and Melo hired Bay when he turned pro?

The repercussions would be interesting, forfeiting an NCAA title.

 

[DWKB]

I have no idea if Selby will be cleared or not but anybody that is saying there's no peep he might not is simply not dealing in reality. It's August the fact that Selby hasn't yet been cleared is already news because most schools already know if their recruits have been cleared or not. Selby is already part of a much smaller subset that hasn't been cleared for a specific reason, in his case apparently questions about his amateur status.

The pre-existing relationship situation is something that will obviously play a role in Selby's case if anybody finds out that there was any money changing hands with this guy "Bay". They have to determine if such a relationship would be allowable under the pre-existing relationship ruling or not. Remember Melo got Mayo in trouble at USC because he gave him free tickets to a Lakers game and then USC claimed that a prior relationship existed and therefore Mayo was allowed to take the tickets. The NCAA said the prior relationship was based entirely on basketball and as such did not exempt Mayo from the rule. If any money changed hands here, the NCAA would likely be trying to determine if the relationship changed when Selby's basketball prowess became apparent. In other words was Bay giving money to the family before Selby was a recruitable athlete or did he just start doing that when Selby's talent became apparent.

The KC Star story about this is pretty clear, if the NCAA believes there's an agreement either written or verbal that Selby will be a future client of Frazier's(Bay) then he's violated his amateur status. The question is not an easy one to answer since Bay says he has known Selby for years. Bay admits he gave Melo money and clothes when he was young and playing on Bay's AAU team, even that is questionable if it violated Melo's amateur status or not since Bay had known him since he was 10 years old. It's not a black and white issue at all.

It's got nothing to do with Kansas beyond they took his LOI knowing this story was out there(the NYT story about Selby pre-dated his signing with Kansas). Nobody is saying Kansas paid him they're saying his relationship with Bay and the former school official may have voided his amateur status.



Regarding the allegations that recruit Anthony Davis got paid to commit to UK that story gets bigger. Wed the Chicago Sun Times removed the paragraph with that allegation after threat of lawsuit by lawyers representing UK. Today the Sun Times printed a much larger article that says they have sources at 3 other colleges who allege Davis' father demanded anywhere between 125K and 150K to commit to their school.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/preps/2571594,CST-SPT-cruit06.article

Who's the strawman you're attacking here not dealing with reality. I swear Russ, I'm seriously starting to question your reading comprehension with the constant inability to understand posts. The amount of leaps and assumptions is staggering.

I personally think the Nancy Grace act is killing any joy of college sports that might ever be expressed on this forum. It's all about crime and punishment and what if's.

 

[Russ Smith]

Who's the strawman you're attacking here not dealing with reality. I swear Russ, I'm seriously starting to question your reading comprehension with the constant inability to understand posts. The amount of leaps and assumptions is staggering.

I personally think the Nancy Grace act is killing any joy of college sports that might ever be expressed on this forum. It's all about crime and punishment and what if's.

I suggest you re-read. I haven't said Selby did anything, I'm saying the questions will be did he take money and if he did, does it violate the spirit of the rule or is it covered under the prior relationship exemption, which YOU yourself brought up on this board, not me. You're the one that said they have known each other for years according to Kansas sources.

On the Scout Kansas board people were pointing out that because the mom had known Frazier "since middle school" they had an existing relationship and it would not be a problem. I pointed out to them they are reading her quote incorrectly. She didn't say she's known him since grade school, she said when she was told to talk to him to get advice about recruitment, she immediately recognized him from grade school. Those are 2 entirely different statements.

the first one implies they've actively known each other since gradeschool, they're both in their 30's so that's a period of over 20 years. What she said is entirely different, that she recognized him which implies that she hadn't seen him SINCE gradeschool again we're talking like 20 years. Several KU fans who read my comments immediately grasped what I was getting at and agreed, based on how his mom said it, there is no existing relationship between Selby and Frazier that would allow for any "extra benefits."

So the entire question is were there any extra benefits, the other stuff is irrelevant since the NCAA won't consider it an existing relationship. I went to gradeschool with maybe 50 kids, many of whom I haven't seen in over 20 years. I certainly wouldn't say I had a relationship with all of them just because we went to the same gradeschool. One KU fan even joked about it's ok they're Facebook friends, basically everyone on that board seems to grasp what I was pointing out.

There isn't an issue here of did Kansas do anything wrong, nobody including me has said they did. All they did is take a chance on signing a kid who was obviously going to have some questions about his amateur status because of what was said in the NYT article. The NCAA is now going much harder after those kids because of what happened with Mayo and Rose.

The last part of what I said was strictly from a point of interest, if the NCAA somehow finds that Selby DID take money and declares him ineligible, you have to wonder that the next logical step is to investigate Melo and likely make Syracuse forfeit their national title because Melo should have been ineligible. That is IF Selby violated his amateur status with Frazier, then without question so did Melo since Frazier admits he was giving him money and gifts going back to the age of 10, and Frazier admits that the beginnings of his relationship with Melo were strictly about basketball. I would argue that even if Selby is completely cleared, and he probably will be, the NCAA probably still should look into Melo and Frazier because based on what's been in print, Frazier probably violated Melo's amateur status long before he ever played at Syracuse.

To me it would be interesting to see how far the NCAA would be willing to take this because Melo won an NC, so any findings against him would result in a vacated national title. Are they so focussed on cleaning up this stuff that they're willing to open Pandora's box knowing it could very likely lead to forfeiting a national championship?

I expect Selby to be cleared, the NCAA has apparently been looking at him for a couple of months now odds are if they had something concrete they would have already ruled.

As for this thread and this board if you read the thread title and somehow didn't realize what the topic would be, that's not my issue it's yours. If you don't want to read about eligibility issues in college sports it's really not that hard to just avoid threads that are clearly about that. I would submit that the reason you're "bothered" is that one of the recruits in question happens to be a Kansas recruit. If it were Tyler Lamb of UCLA instead of Selby of Kansas, I don't think you'd be complaining. I couldn't have made the title any more descriptive of what this thread would be about, if you still chose to read it and respond in it, that would be your issue.

Right now in the offseason the biggest stories in college sports all seem to be connected to NCAA rules, the stuff with SEC football schools(now UT under investigation again), and now some of the eligibility issues with Barton, Selby and Kanter among them.

 

[overseascardfan]

You really have to give Miller credit. Most of these guys under the NCAA microscope were at one time UA recruits. Maybe Miller's determination to run a clean program is one of the reasons these kids did not end up at UA. With Davis, you have 3 unnamed sources who have stated his father was looking for other teams to match UK's offer. Its not its some disgruntled, sleezy coach who is trying to cause trouble is leaking this to the media. UK has got to go down soon enough, Kanter if I had to bet got paid and the whole Terrence Jones recruitment seems to fishy to be legal. Brandon Knight better not sign a LOI but more than likely he is a one and done anyways so sanctions will come after he is gone. Once again I will announce my prediction that this will be Cal's last year at UK. I think Selby will be cleared to play at KU, if "Born Ready" (another one time UA recruit) got in, Selby shouldn't have any trouble.

 

[DWKB]

I suggest you re-read. I haven't said Selby did anything, I'm saying the questions will be did he take money and if he did, does it violate the spirit of the rule or is it covered under the prior relationship exemption, which YOU yourself brought up on this board, not me. You're the one that said they have known each other for years according to Kansas sources.

Trust me, I read you just fine Nancy. Its still you who seems to have problems understanding, just like on the phog and why they called you out on it as well. I'm sure it's just in my, and those on the phog's head though.

You are correct in that I have the choice to click on your threads or not, but I also have the right to state my opinion that you've killed this particular forum with your POV to NCAA athletics. Why comment on anything when Debbie Downer will come in and tell you how dirty your team and all of college athletics is. Oh, except when real punishment comes along to UofA, then it's tippy toes. Spineless IMO.

 

[Russ Smith]

You really have to give Miller credit. Most of these guys under the NCAA microscope were at one time UA recruits. Maybe Miller's determination to run a clean program is one of the reasons these kids did not end up at UA. With Davis, you have 3 unnamed sources who have stated his father was looking for other teams to match UK's offer. Its not its some disgruntled, sleezy coach who is trying to cause trouble is leaking this to the media. UK has got to go down soon enough, Kanter if I had to bet got paid and the whole Terrence Jones recruitment seems to fishy to be legal. Brandon Knight better not sign a LOI but more than likely he is a one and done anyways so sanctions will come after he is gone. Once again I will announce my prediction that this will be Cal's last year at UK. I think Selby will be cleared to play at KU, if "Born Ready" (another one time UA recruit) got in, Selby shouldn't have any trouble.

Exactly I'm still amazed Lance got cleared, he had a personal website that virtually everyone agreed was taking paid advertisements on the site. how could that NOT violate his amateur status?

But he was cleared and I expect Selby will be too. I think Kanter will miss at least 9 games, and quite possibly won't be cleared. There is so much finger pointing at Calipari and UK right now I think the NCAA may go with the even if we can't prove it we believe the rumors, he played pro ball.

 

[Russ Smith]

Trust me, I read you just fine Nancy. Its still you who seems to have problems understanding, just like on the phog and why they called you out on it as well. I'm sure it's just in my, and those on the phog's head though.

You are correct in that I have the choice to click on your threads or not, but I also have the right to state my opinion that you've killed this particular forum with your POV to NCAA athletics. Why comment on anything when Debbie Downer will come in and tell you how dirty your team and all of college athletics is. Oh, except when real punishment comes along to UofA, then it's tippy toes. Spineless IMO.

now I have to laugh. http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=172&f=2481&t=6187444&p=6

That's the link to thread on the Phog that I have made 8 posts on. The only negative comments have been one person said I was wrong about pre-existing relationship but hasn't bothered to state why. ANd someone else complained my posts are too long, they are, I know this, everyone on THIS board knows that too. At least 3 people have said point blank Russ is right, it's not a pre-existing relationship so there's no point in even talking about that the question will be were there any extra benefits.

I haven't said word one on THIS thread about Kansas being dirty, there are plenty of other threads where I've made my opinion on Kansas clear. If you can't separate my comments there from my comments here that's your issue not mine. You'll note I haven't posted anything on the KU board about my opinion about Kansas aside from this issue, that's because I'm only really discussing this issue.

But since you seem compelled to get me to say something bad about Kansas I would point out that there are some schools who simply walk away from a kid like this when they see the potential issue. UCLA was offered Mayo and turned him down, UCLA backed away from Sidney when they saw something they didn't like. UCLA declined to recruit Derrick Rose when he added them to his list(without their interest) and then when Kevin Love tried to persuade them to recruit Rose. Some schools decide there's enough smoke there we're not really willing to risk the potential for a fire. Kansas didn't do that with Selby, they decided to take the chance. He was uncommitted when that article came out in the NYT, anybody who read that story knew there would be extra scrutiny on Selby as a result, Kansas chose to take him anyways.There is far less smoke with Selby than with those kids though. They probably won't have any issue with him, I would say worst case scenario would be a Wall like 3 game suspension and frankly I doubt even that. With Wall it was well known his AAU coach was a former agent, that's not the case with Selby. As someone else mentioned Arizona has steered away from kids like this as have other schools, since the Mayo and Rose situations some schools are very leery of any kid who has such questions, even though the red flags on those 2 were huge, Selby appears to be a choir boy in comparison.



One of the connected folks on the KU board said the whole reason this story came out was the Will Barton story. He was ruled ineligible, they knew Selby was his cousin, went to the same school so they asked I wonder if there's anything there, and then ran with the non story that he's not cleared yet. The problem with that logic is that Barton's problems have nothing to do with amateur status, he graduated in 9 semesters, the NCAA says he only gets 8 and that he didn't get the core classes satisfied in the correct time so he's ineligible and has to attend Memphis for a year making progress towards a degree to become eligible. Virtually nobody expects him to win his appeal, the odds of him playing next season are considered to be virtually zero. I would submit that he's the one making that connection that's not why Parrish published what he did, he published it because someone told him hey did you know Kanter and Selby aren't cleared yet, they appear to be the only 2 big name recruits who haven't been cleared yet due to amateurism questions.

I also find it ironic that you of all people are complaining that someone else is ruining a forum for others. This from the guy who routinely blasts people on the P&R forum uses profanities in his posts there, goes so far over the rules he eventually gets a strike for it and has running "feuds" with at least 5 posters on that board alone. When you come over to this board there is one "running feud" that I see, you and me. At some point you might stop and wonder how come so many of these feuds involve DWKB?

Lots of people disagree with me on other forums here but only one seems incapable of doing so in a civil manner. Nancy?

As for the UA situation I've made my opinion known on that situation from the beginning, I didn't consider it to be a huge issue. I think there was a violation there and UA is now facing punishment over it, I think it was an unusual situation they had a coach going through a very difficult time personally and healthwise, a guy who didn't have a prior history of breaking rules, I consider that situation to be largely an anomaly. If anything it said more about the guy Storey(?) involved in it than anything since he's apparently a huge UA fan who apparently didn't care what he was doing was going to get the program in trouble.

There's a far cry between what happened there and some of the stuff I've complained about with respect to KU, UK, USC etc. UA was fundraising against the rules for a camp, they weren't openly paying coaches of kids they recruited to speak at the camp. They weren't doing what USC did with package deals and academic fraud. And they certainly weren't buying recruits as is being alleged against UK.

If you read this board regularly you also know I've openly cheered for the recent crack down on the Pump Brothers, even though that could be perceived as an anti-UCLA thing. It's because I don't like what they do, I don't care if they are personal friends of Howland, I'd like to see their influence in basketball reduced.

see another way too long post.

 

[overseascardfan]

Well its official, Anthony Davis committed to UK. Let the investigation begin.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well its official, Anthony Davis committed to UK. Let the investigation begin.

You'd almost have to think he didn't take money because if he did he would be INSANE to go ahead and commit to UK now with the rumor out there. He has to know the NCAA is going to be all over him so if he commits to the school rumored to have paid him, he's just asking to be declared ineligible if he really took the cash.

I will say this, when he started to blow up during the AAU events there were a couple of national mentions where after describing how he'd come out of nowhere and looked like a budding star, there were comments about his dad could be difficult to deal with and some other comments. At the time they didn't mean anything but in hindsight if the rumors of asking for money are true, it's suggesting maybe that's what was being hinted at with some of the comments?

Chicago is famous for this everytime a kid from that area goes somewhere else people say he got paid, but the rumors on Davis are so specific it makes you wonder.

 

[Russ Smith]

Kansas has started classes already and Selby is NOT attending class. Not sure what the rule is, I know Sidney attended classes for months at MSU while not being cleared no idea if he was paying his own way or not. But apparently there's a cutoff point at which if Selby is not attending classes, he wouldn't be allowed to play because he'd have missed too much time to be considered academically eligible.

A Kansas board cited a source saying the NCAA is not just investigating his interactions with Frazier, they're looking into how Frazier may have interacted with Tennessee and Kentucky in THEIR recruitments of Selby as well. Remember the kid originally verballed to UT and then after the LeBron camp he abruptly decommitted amid rumors Worldwide Wes had a long meeting with him and his mom.

 

[Russ Smith]

Also Gary Parrish is reporting the NCAA reversed their decision on Will Barton and ruled he now IS eligible to play for Memphis this year.