New Starting Line Up Anyone?

[desertdawg]

I aint saying no names, we all see the same games. We need to start off better, especially at the crib. We have a huge road trip coming after the break, we need to start our best during that stretch. I like the turn around but our formula can improve, logically when you look at stats or if you watch the games.

Granted, Gentry quit dong the musical chairs with the starting line up and it helped. Much props to him, but it has shown us other options, thats what happens when you stick with a line up. Now make the correct changes and benefit fully from the trade.

 

[Evil Ash]

I aint saying no names, we all see the same games. We need to start off better, especially at the crib. We have a huge road trip coming after the break, we need to start our best during that stretch. I like the turn around but our formula can improve, logically when you look at stats or if you watch the games.

Granted, Gentry quit dong the musical chairs with the starting line up and it helped. Much props to him, but it has shown us other options, thats what happens when you stick with a line up. Now make the correct changes and benefit fully from the trade.

I'm for getting rid of Vince at this point. Seriously I would take anything for him at this point or just send him home. He's a waste of roster space.

The centers are fine, we need Gorat's energy off the bench

 

[Mainstreet]

I think replacing Vince Carter in the starting lineup is the most obvious move but Gentry feels like he has gas left in the tank as I posted earlier on the first page of the game thread. Maybe Gentry is right but VC seems to be so out of rhythm and is struggling to find his game. I find it hard to believe it is a confidence issue with such a veteran player.

 

[BC867]

The centers are fine, we need Gorat's energy off the bench

I wasn't going to respond, because my opinion is known.

But . . . energy is what you'd expect from a Wing -- constantly moving without the ball.

Defense and rebounding is what you expect from a starting Center, as well as some scoring.

Priorities!

Lopez tonight vs. Utah at home. Two points - zero rebounds - deer-in-the-headlights on defense. We were lucky to escape with a one-point win.

Lopez should take Frye out for a steak dinner. He played well enough for both of them.

 

[Evil Ash]

I wasn't going to respond, because my opinion is known.

But . . . energy is what you'd expect from a Wing -- constantly moving without the ball.

Defense and rebounding is what you expect from a starting Center, as well as some scoring.

Priorities!

Lopez tonight vs. Utah at home. Two points - zero rebounds - deer-in-the-headlights on defense. We were lucky to escape with a one-point win.

Lopez should take Frye out for a steak dinner. He played well enough for both of them.

This is not the game to talk about either center's defense. Gortat was bad tonight and Lopez was just awful. Neither made a difference

 

[BC867]

This is not the game to talk about either center's defense. Gortat was bad tonight and Lopez was just awful. Neither made a difference

My impression was that Gortat made enough key defensive plays, and was constantly a threat to do so. At worst, he was average tonight. I wouldn't call it bad.

His presence makes a difference. Lopez's does not.

Even with Gortat no longer able to play under the radar on offense, once again, his presence makes a difference.

There is no question that Gortat is constantly doing positive things that don't show in the box score.

Not the least of which is talking to his teammates constantly on the floor. He and Nash -- the big guy and the little guy -- are filling that much-needed role.

 

[desertdawg]

This is not the game to talk about either center's defense. Gortat was bad tonight and Lopez was just awful. Neither made a difference

I beg to differ, so does Gentry's line up when it counts. To think the starting line up doesn't count might contribute to future losses. Lets keep it real, you want to keep starting Lopez why? He sucks.

 

[jagu]

Things are going well now, I wouldn't mind keeping it as is at the center position. I would swap Carter for Dudley and that gives Dragic/Dowdell a go-to-guy for isolation. Dudley works pretty well with Nash and he is super smart on defense.

 

[Evil Ash]

My impression was that Gortat made enough key defensive plays, and was constantly a threat to do so. At worst, he was average tonight. I wouldn't call it bad.

His presence makes a difference. Lopez's does not.

Even with Gortat no longer able to play under the radar on offense, once again, his presence makes a difference.

There is no question that Gortat is constantly doing positive things that don't show in the box score.

Not the least of which is talking to his teammates constantly on the floor. He and Nash -- the big guy and the little guy -- are filling that much-needed role.

I like Gortat but he was bad tonight. He turned the ball over alot (although he may not get credit with all of them), didn't block anyone off of the boards and limited Al Jefferson to ONLY 14 POINTS IN THE 4TH QTR. He had a bad game. His only saving grace was that Lopez was worse. It was a bad game by our centers tonight. PERIOD. THE END.

As to the reason why I'm okay with keeping him on the bench have you or desertdawg paid attention to our 4th qtrs lately? The reason we are having trouble closing games is that our bench as a whole hasn't played well lately. So let me ask the question: How does Lopez going to the bench with a struggling unit improve it?!

Logic, there is no logic. Gortat is still getting the majority of the minutes so it really isn't that big of a deal other than for ego. Our team is playing well lately so I don't see the point of change for a reason as stupid as that

 

[desertdawg]

As to the reason why I'm okay with keeping him on the bench have you or desertdawg paid attention to our 4th qtrs lately? The reason we are having trouble closing games is that our bench as a whole hasn't played well lately. So let me ask the question: How does Lopez going to the bench with a struggling unit improve it?!

Logic, there is no logic. Gortat is still getting the majority of the minutes so it really isn't that big of a deal other than for ego

A new starting line up would help the Suns.

 

[Chaplin]

My impression was that Gortat made enough key defensive plays, and was constantly a threat to do so. At worst, he was average tonight. I wouldn't call it bad.

His presence makes a difference. Lopez's does not.

Even with Gortat no longer able to play under the radar on offense, once again, his presence makes a difference.

There is no question that Gortat is constantly doing positive things that don't show in the box score.

Not the least of which is talking to his teammates constantly on the floor. He and Nash -- the big guy and the little guy -- are filling that much-needed role.

I love Gortat, but tonight he was plain awful defensively. He at least started to rebound better in the 2nd half, but he consistently left Jefferson and gave him open jumpshot after open jumpshot.

 

[sunsfan88]

New starting lineup:

Nash
Dudley
Hill
Frye
Gortat

Bench:

Dowdell
Dragic
Pietrus
Warrick
Lopez

Carter gets left out of the rotation.

 

[Evil Ash]

New starting lineup:

Nash
Dudley
Hill
Frye
Gortat

Bench:

Dowdell
Dragic
Pietrus
Warrick
Lopez

Carter gets left out of the rotation.

Leave the centers alone and I'm fine with that. I'm just afraid that if we move Gortat moves into the starting lineup that our bench production goes down to basically nothing.

Our problems aren't slow starts (except the past few games), its bad finishes because of a lack of production from the bench. Putting Lopez on the bench doesn't really help anything

 

[Errntknght]

Vince -> Glass Case like AzStevenCal said in another thread - except with no instructions for breaking the case. Quarantine him permanently. The minimal effort he's putting out can't be doing anything but hurting the team chemistry. Give it a boost and they may return to the good defense they'd displayed for ten games.

I think Dudley is the best choice to replace him in the starting lineup - he's earned it if anyone has. Pietrus is doing okay despite turning into a black hole on offense but promoting him to starting would be like rewarding him for sucky shot selection. Childress will do fine backing up Hill in Duds old spot in the rotation - he can defend and rebound equally well and is nearly as smart. Josh gets out on the break better than Jared and we can use that. If we need more 3 pt shooting, Gentry can insert Dragic at SG & slide Duds back to SF. If we keep the rest of the rotation the same we improve the defense a bit in every game and VC's wild swings in scoring get evened out.

Getting the defense back in that nice groove is the essential thing - playing like we were and having a frontcourt with decent size means we aren't going into the postseason wars unarmed.

 

[sunsfan88]

Leave the centers alone and I'm fine with that. I'm just afraid that if we move Gortat moves into the starting lineup that our bench production goes down to basically nothing.

Our problems aren't slow starts (except the past few games), its bad finishes because of a lack of production from the bench. Putting Lopez on the bench doesn't really help anything

Maybe its the pressure of playing along with Nash thats getting to Lopez.

So if he plays with someone like Dragic (who came out of the draft the same year as him) it could possibly make both Dragic and Lopez to play better.

 

[Evil Ash]

Maybe its the pressure of playing along with Nash thats getting to Lopez.

So if he plays with someone like Dragic (who came out of the draft the same year as him) it could possibly make both Dragic and Lopez to play better.

Maybe but I doubt it. Lopez and Dragic seem to have the same problem of not being aggressive so putting them together wouldn't likely help that. Besides we've been playing well lately and making a change for the sake of making a change or appeasing Gortat's ego doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[desertdawg]

Gortat has earned his start and it would benefit the team, Lopez has failed again. Don't penalize the Suns because of the false hope that LOLopez will become a great.

Only one true NBA center on our roster, and we are starting off poorly because we won't start him.

If folks want to bench Carter, I am no longer against that. The joys of being flexible and paying attention make it this way.

 

[Evil Ash]

Gortat has earned his start and it would benefit the team, Lopez has failed again. Don't penalize the Suns because of the false hope that LOLopez will become a great.

Only one true NBA center on our roster, and we are starting off poorly because we won't start him.

If folks want to bench Carter, I am no longer against that. The joys of being flexible and paying attention make it this way.

1) No one has suggested that Lopez will turn into a great. However, he's a 22 years old 7 footer that has shown signs of developing into a good player when he doesn't revert back into his bad habits and is aggressive (ie 2nd half of last Jazz game).

2) We have only started slowly the past few games. During the majority of this 16 game stretch we've done very well in the 1st qtr but have struggled in the 4th qtr when our bench (including Gortat is in). How does putting in Lopez with this already struggling bench, when Nash is out, improve the team?


3) Gortat is only able to handle a certain amount of minutes due to the lack of playing time, he got in Orlando. So which is more important that he starts a game or that he's able to finish it?

You make moves to improve the team and with Gortat still getting the majority of the minutes this would only be done to appease his ego as it would only likely make us worse. You really want to make the struggling bench worse?

The move to remove VC is different as that would improve the team because he provides absolutely nothing.

 

[desertdawg]

1)

The move to remove VC is different as that would improve the team because he provides absolutely nothing.

I agree with that part. If you would keep starting Lopez that's kinda all I need to know. (It basically says that I have a shot at being the Suns center)

 

[Covert Rain]

In my opinion it's not true our bench production would fall off just because Gortat would go to the starting lineup. It's not like Gortat puts up 30 a night.

We have the #3rd best scoring bench in the NBA and lead in other offensive categories. We have the 2nd best bench in total rebounds per game. The bench is already the 4th worst defensive bench in giving up points in the NBA already so no change it going to impact that either.

The Suns problem is that we play from behind almost every game after the start of the 1st quarter and let teams get a great start at the start of the 2nd half. How many times have we heard coaches say it takes a ton of energy to play from behind?

The Starters hurt really bad in 3 areas. That is scoring, rebounding & defense. The Suns rank #19 in scoring in starting lineups. We rank 2nd worst in the NBA in starting lineup rebounding. We rank 6th worst in giving up points by starting lineup.

That is freaking horrible. So, we have one of the best benches in scoring and rebounding but one of the worst starting lineups in those same categories? Do you really have to wonder why the Suns get such bad starts when the starting lineup is on the floor in the 1st and 3rd periods???

The lineup needs to change. I have been saying that from day one. You move Gortat to the starting lineup and you instantly get a boost with defense and rebounding. Not to mention Gortat's occasional scoring.

Now factor in Carter's lack of production both defensively & offensively in the starting lineup. This starting lineup is really hurting and the stats prove that out. We need an infusion and moving both Lopez & Carter to the bench could give this team the boost it needs on both ends. Having those guys start is hurting this team.

 

[Mainstreet]

IMO, Gentry is doing the same thing with both VC and Lopez. If he doesn't start them he is unlikely to get much out of them (less than now). Lopez needs Nash to feed him the ball to be effective and VC still thinks he is a star. If I had to chose one of them to go to the bench it is VC. Dudley played quite well after the Turkoglu trade before VC was activated. Gortat is still going to produce off the bench. Now that Dragic is back, he can help out at SG.

 

[BC867]

I'm just afraid that if we move Gortat moves into the starting lineup that our bench production goes down to basically nothing.

Scoring is just one aspect of the game.

Basically, scoring is the only aspect of Lopez's game that comes anywhere near NBA level.

Moving Gortat into the starting rotation would add rebounding and defense which, right now, is mediocre to start the game.

What is so bad about Lopez starting the 2nd quarter instead of the 1st . . . and a few minutes to start the 4th, rather than the 3rd?

 

[Covert Rain]

IMO, Gentry is doing the same thing with both VC and Lopez. If he doesn't start them he is unlikely to get much out of them (less than now). Lopez needs Nash to feed him the ball to be effective and VC still thinks he is a star. If I had to chose one of them to go to the bench it is VC. Dudley played quite well after the Turkoglu trade before VC was activated. Gortat is still going to produce off the bench. Now that Dragic is back, he can help out at SG.

Problem being that VC main job is to score. Even if you put Dudley or Pietrus or whoever in the starting lineup we are still going to struggle in the rebounding department, getting off to slow starts and defense in the paint.

Lopez has to go to the bench to resolve that.

 

[Evil Ash]

Scoring is just one aspect of the game.

Basically, scoring is the only aspect of Lopez's game that comes anywhere near NBA level.

Moving Gortat into the starting rotation would add rebounding and defense which, right now, is mediocre to start the game.

What is so bad about Lopez starting the 2nd quarter instead of the 1st . . . and a few minutes to start the 4th, rather than the 3rd?

Scoring in the 1st qtr has only been a problem for the past few games. Before that our problems had nothing to do with starts as we were scoring 30+ points in the 1st qtr with regularity.

Our problem has been at the start of the 4th qtr when Nash is on the bench and our often collapse as a result. With a lineup of Lopez, Warrick, Pietrus, Dudley, and Goran/Dowdell - we might as well have take 24 seconds off the clock and hand the ball to the other team because that lineup doesn't provide consistent offense or defense.

What people are doing is overreacting to a recent trend (struggles in the 1st qtr) and making one of the actual problems (horrid 4th qtrs) WORSE. That doesn't make any sense.

Gortat gets the majority of the mins and gets to finish the game. I don't want to appease his ego so much that it costs us games, which it would likely do

 

[Covert Rain]

Scoring in the 1st qtr has only been a problem for the past few games. Before that our problems had nothing to do with starts as we were scoring 30+ points in the 1st qtr with regularity.

Our problem has been at the start of the 4th qtr when Nash is on the bench and our often collapse as a result. With a lineup of Lopez, Warrick, Pietrus, Dudley, and Goran/Dowdell - we might as well have take 24 seconds off the clock and hand the ball to the other team because that lineup doesn't provide consistent offense or defense.

What people are doing is overreacting to a recent trend (struggles in the 1st qtr) and making one of the actual problems (horrid 4th qtrs) WORSE. That doesn't make any sense.

Gortat gets the majority of the mins and gets to finish the game. I don't want to appease his ego so much that it costs us games, which it would likely do

Total scoring in the quarter is not the problem. It's the start of the 1st quarter and usually the start of the 1st half. When the team is playing catchup for 1/2 of each of those quarters which is exhausting, I expect this team to struggle in the 4th which it has on almost a regular basis.