On Arenas

[Russ Smith]

He said last night if owner Chris Cohan had promised to pay him a max contract NEXT year, he'd have taken the 4.9 THIS year.

Great Gil, one problem, that violates NBA cap rules and is almost exactly what got the Twolves in trouble. The bay area media is all over this now, Gil's comments are actually helping the Warriors because it's that much clearer why they couldn't keep him and why the talk about him being immature was out there.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
He said last night if owner Chris Cohan had promised to pay him a max contract NEXT year, he'd have taken the 4.9 THIS year.

Great Gil, one problem, that violates NBA cap rules and is almost exactly what got the Twolves in trouble. The bay area media is all over this now, Gil's comments are actually helping the Warriors because it's that much clearer why they couldn't keep him and why the talk about him being immature was out there.

We did that several times in the last 12 years--Rex, Manning, Wayman Tisdale, just to name a few.

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: On Arenas

Originally posted by Chaplin
We did that several times in the last 12 years--Rex, Manning, Wayman Tisdale, just to name a few.

Probably true but it is not legal under the NBA rules, if you have a secret deal it's a violation and is almost exactly what got Minnesota in trouble with Joe Smith.

Arenas was asked point blank if he knew it was a violation and he apparently declined to answer the question.

 

[Chaplin]

Re: Re: Re: On Arenas

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Probably true but it is not legal under the NBA rules, if you have a secret deal it's a violation and is almost exactly what got Minnesota in trouble with Joe Smith.

Arenas was asked point blank if he knew it was a violation and he apparently declined to answer the question.

This doesn't mean there is a "secret deal". If a guy says, "hey, sign this one year deal, and we'll take care of you next year when we have more money", that's not a deal. If he said, "hey, sign this one year deal, and next year we'll sign you to a 7 year contract worth 21 million," THEN there would be a problem.

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: On Arenas

Originally posted by Chaplin
This doesn't mean there is a "secret deal". If a guy says, "hey, sign this one year deal, and we'll take care of you next year when we have more money", that's not a deal. If he said, "hey, sign this one year deal, and next year we'll sign you to a 7 year contract worth 21 million," THEN there would be a problem.

He said he wanted a promise of a max deal.


"Had Arenas signed a one-year contract with the Warriors, he would have been eligible to sign the maximum allowable contract with them next summer.

``I don't know the guy personally,'' Arenas said of Cohan. ``I only know St. Jean and Otis Smith,'' the Warriors' executive director of basketball operations. ``They can tell me everything I want to hear, but if the guy who I do not know can tell me in my face the deal will get done no matter how I play . . . that's all I wanted to hear.''

League rules would have prevented the Warriors from negotiating such a contract."

Matt Steinmetz of the Contra Costa Times wrote the story, the SJ Mercury News picked it up.

Most Warrior fans agree with you that they should have done it, the media on the other hand is playing up the NBA rule violation angle. KNBR interviewed GA last night that's where this is all coming from, he would not answer the question about if he knew that it technically wasn't legal to promise him a max contract.

FYI local rumor today is they're trying to generate interest in Antawn Jamison in a trade.

 

[Joe Mama]

How could you responsibly promise a one-hit wonder (so far) like Gilbert Arenas a maximum contract no matter how he played next season? As it stands the wizards are going to end up over paying him by several million dollars per season.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
How could you responsibly promise a one-hit wonder (so far) like Gilbert Arenas a maximum contract no matter how he played next season? Joe Mama

That too.

 

[hcsilla]

Re: Re: Re: On Arenas

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Probably true but it is not legal under the NBA rules, if you have a secret deal it's a violation and is almost exactly what got Minnesota in trouble with Joe Smith.

That was not but MIN was stupid enough to write this agreement.
I would like to see how NBA proves that it was a secret deal if it would have been a verbal agreement between Arenas and GSW's management.

 

[Errntknght]

GS was smart not to make the deal... Arenas has not proved himself to be a max player. Not even close to that and he could improve a good amount and still never be one. Frankly, I don't see how anyone but a Duncan or Shaq is worth the max, which is about 120 million over 7 years. For 17 mil per annum a guy has to be able to carry a team on his back. Jermaine O'Neill is a longshot to be worth his contract, IMO.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Jermaine O'Neill is a longshot to be worth his contract, IMO.

Then how about Shawn Marion and his contract?

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Then how about Shawn Marion and his contract?

I've said it about thousand times already, but here it goes again:
Shawn Marion is not worth 50% of what he is going to make this year.

 

[SweetD]

Marion is worth the money IMO. What do you think he should be paid for a guy averaging 21+ points, 2+ steals, 9+ rebounds a game? I am sure that the other 38 players that are getting paid more than him are worth it. Come the guy will do better than last years numbers. Marion is the real deal and he plays well on both ends.

 

[Errntknght]

I'd say Marion is worth about 9.5 million per year. He's better than an average starting '3', pegged at about 7 million, but he won't carry the team. He's not a primary threat on offense, meaning that other teams won't double him much and certainly won't gear their defense to stopping him. His defense is good but not super. He rebounds exceptionally well for a '3' but an exceptional rebounding PF/C does more than just get rebounds - he takes up space around the basket and prevents offensiave players from getting an easy shot when they do grab a rebound. And gets 2-3 more rebounds per game. One thing Marion does have going for him is that he isn't fragile or hasn't been so far, anyway.

It's critical for a team like the Suns not to overpay a player because the total payroll is essentially fixed so overpaying one guy means you'll have to underpay someone else which usually translates to guys playing out their contracts and moving on.

 

[elindholm]

I just conceded in a very long argument on the ESPN board, where I was saying pretty much exactly what Errntknght just said. This concept of resources being limited was just beyond them.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Errntknght

It's critical for a team like the Suns not to overpay a player because the total payroll is essentially fixed so overpaying one guy means you'll have to underpay someone else which usually translates to guys playing out their contracts and moving on.

Right, and some of us here argued that the Suns re-signed Marion too soon. They should have waited to see what other teams are going to offer him, and then match it.

Stefan

 

[elindholm]

They should have waited to see what other teams are going to offer him, and then match it.

Not to mention, see whether he was going to get hurt in 2002-03. It's a relief that he didn't, but what if he'd suffered a career-ending injury? That's a risk you always take when signing a player to a huge contract -- but not a full year before you have to!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght
I'd say Marion is worth about 9.5 million per year. He's better than an average starting '3', pegged at about 7 million, but he won't carry the team.

Where are you getting your info to base all this on?

 

[elindholm]

Heck, Errntknght, if we accept your $9.5 million figure, then Marion basically isn't overpaid. He makes only $10.1 million this season. I can't get too excited about $600,000.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
Heck, Errntknght, if we accept your $9.5 million figure, then Marion basically isn't overpaid. He makes only $10.1 million this season. I can't get too excited about $600,000.

Exactly. If some of these other guys are getting massive contracts you can bet Shawn Marion would have received an offer for the max or something damn close to it. I think it was worth the little bit extra he may have received from the Phoenix Suns, so there was no question they loved him and wanted him to be part of the team for a long time.

Shawn Marion would have been one of the hottest free agents just below the guys like Jason Kidd and Jermaine O'Neal.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm
. He makes only $10.1 million this season.

Only for the record Marion's 1st year salary of his new contract is 25% of this year's cap or 10.95 mil.

 

[Errntknght]

Here's how I arrived at my figures:

Starters play roughly 2/3 of the minutes for a team so they should get 2/3 of the money available. Whatever the formal 'salary cap' is, teams seem to be paying somewhat over 50 million per year in salaries, so the starters share of that should be around 35 million. Divide that by five and you get 7 million per starter. Now the bigger guys will average somewhat more than that and smaller guys less but a 3 is in the middle so should make around 7 million. Shawn is significantly above average and plays more minutes than average but he isn't going to carry the team, meaning you have to have 4 other starters who are pretty darn good if you want to compete for the title. Rolling all that around in my head I took a stab with 9.5 million. I didn't get specific but what I meant was 9.5 mil average for the life of his contract.

I have no idea how his contract scales up but if it's 1/2 mil per year increase over 6 years, for example, then he should be starting at 8.25 million. In this case, starting him at 10.1 or 10.95 is dramatically overpaying him.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght

I have no idea how his contract scales up but if it's 1/2 mil per year increase over 6 years, for example, then he should be starting at 8.25 million. In this case, starting him at 10.1 or 10.95 is dramatically overpaying him.

Even by your numbers, 10.1 isn't "dramatically" overpaying him.

 

[Errntknght]

Chap wrote, "Even by your numbers, 10.1 isn't "dramatically" overpaying him."

Now (10.1 - 8.25) = 1.85 million may not be dramatic to you or Shawn, but there will be players on the team to whom 1.85 mil will mean a dramatic pay cut, if they happen to be the one who is shortchanged to compensate for Marion being overpaid.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Chap wrote, "Even by your numbers, 10.1 isn't "dramatically" overpaying him."

Now (10.1 - 8.25) = 1.85 million may not be dramatic to you or Shawn, but there will be players on the team to whom 1.85 mil will mean a dramatic pay cut, if they happen to be the one who is shortchanged to compensate for Marion being overpaid.

Last summer ESPN Insider ran a couple of stories where they supposedly talked to a couple of NBA GM's about the soon-to-be free agents. I remember several of us were surprised that Shawn Marion was one of the only guys generally considered a maximum contract player. At one point Insider even questioned whether Elton Brand was a max player.

If it was a priority for the Phoenix Suns to keep Shawn Marion they were most likely going to have to give him the max or something very, very close to it.

Joe Mama