OT: Regarding the Vikings and the Williams' suspensions

[Russ Smith]

I keep complaining about this but it seems like the bulk of the NFL has forgotten. Kevin and Pat Williams were suspended for 4 games because they took Starcaps which it turns out contains banned substances. Several other NFL players took them, tested positve and were suspended. The Vikings players first insisted the tests were wrong, then said the supplement was tainted they didn't know it contained banned substances. later they got a Minnesota judge(gee surprising a judge in Minnesota would rule in their favor) to ban the NFL from suspending them. An appeals court of 3 judges upheld the Minnesota judges decision and ruled the players had the right to sue the NFL for violating Minnesota state rules with respect to how and when they tested the players.

The same appeals court ruled that teh 2 suspended Saints players could NOT sue under the same rule because the laws are different in Louisiana. So the saints players were suspended, but the Vikings players are still playing and will not be suspended in the 2009 season.

Basically what they did was say despite having antitrust exemptions, the NFL is subject to state employment laws. So here's my short list of why this is silly and downright unfair.

1) If the ruling by the 3 judge panel is fair, the Vikings players should have been suspended for the next 4 road games. The state law obviously applies when they're playing in Minnesota, but why does it apply when they're playing in another state? I don't buy that their employer is in Minnesota so those laws rule, because if a high tech company sends a worker from Minn. to say Arizona to do work, that company has to abide by the laws in the state of Arizona while that worker is there. If we're applying state laws to the NFL, they should be suspended the next 4 road games where Minnesota law doesn't apply.

You can argue this even further if you want to get silly. Under Cal OSHA laws neither the 49ers nor Raiders should be allowed to play in the NFL because the incidence of injury is too high in the NFL. Under Cal OSHA rules the job would be declared too dangerous and the teams would have to make drastic changes to decrease injury. Those changes wouldn't conform to NFL rules, so those teams wouldn't be allowed to play in the NFL.

2) every other team that had players tested positive have already lost the use of their players for a series of games. The situation gets even worse, suppose for a minute the Vikings decide Pat is too old and let him go after the season, any other NFL team that wants to sign him, can only get 12 games because he'll be suspended the first 4, as soon as he's not playing for a Minnesota team. Same with kevin, if someone trades for him he's immediately suspended for 4 games. You can't have a situation like this, it's absurd.

From what I understand the NFL is essentially waiting for the suit so they can face the 2 in court. I think they should really push the issue by telling the Vikings you can play them but your games will be forfeited for using players who aren't eligible under NFL rules. Force their hand because right now the 2 players are just waiting to see how long the NFL will allow this before Goodell gets tough.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

i agree with you 100% - i think it's completely bogus

 

[joeshmo]

I could be wrong but I dont think they have officially suspended the Saints players yet. I thought the NFL said they will wait for the Minny case to be resolved which it isnt yet.

 

[Russ Smith]

I could be wrong but I dont think they have officially suspended the Saints players yet. I thought the NFL said they will wait for the Minny case to be resolved which it isnt yet.

I'm not positive but the story I just read said the appeals court ruled the Saints players were not protected because the state laws were different.

If you really want to get absurd, NFL players have to file state tax returns in every state they play in during the tax year. So the federal government has already ruled that NFL players aren't subject to state laws in just the state their team is based in. That is Vikings players have to file returns in Illinois, Wisconsin etc because when they play games in those states, they are "working" in those states and the game check is income in that state.
So there really shouldn't even be an issue here, if they can't be suspended in Minnesota because of that state law fine, but the next 4 games NOT in Minnesota those state laws don't apply.

I think it bugs me because the Vikings are the NFL darling right now due to Favre, they have a great team, are a Super Bowl contender, and everyone seems to be forgetting that it's an absurd legal technicality that is keeping 2 of their players from being suspended.

 

[CardLogic]

You are right, Russ. It is, of course, a totally unfair situation.

I think they (the NFL) should really push the issue by telling the Vikings you can play them but your games will be forfeited for using players who aren't eligible under NFL rules.

I like this solution. Although I assume that the one caveat, due to the courts ruling, would be that the two Vikings players would still get paid for those games, whether they played or were voluntarily held out by the Vikings.

 

[joeshmo]

They did lose their case but the NFL made the decision not to suspend them until the conclusion of the Minny case.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/09/no_suspension_this_week_for_ne.html

Both Will Smith and Grant have played in every game this year so far.

 

[Russ Smith]

They did lose their case but the NFL made the decision not to suspend them until the conclusion of the Minny case.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/09/no_suspension_this_week_for_ne.html

Both Will Smith and Grant have played in every game this year so far.

Yep I googled it and found that. The interesting thing is Goodell is saying that pending the outcome of the decison the NFL may decide to outsource the testing process to WADA, the same people that test Lance Armstrong and Olympic athletes etc. Goodell said if the NFL is going to be constricted by various state laws it will become unwieldy for them to enforce the rule, even though the players association signed off on it, so they would outsource it and the cost would go up and that cost would come out of profits and probably be negotiated to take it away from the players percentage not the teams.

I thought that was a clear threat, you think we're being tough wait until WADA is involved.

THe state law in question is Minnesota law says you can't be punished for taking a substance that is legal and not on their list of banned substances. So if the NFL bans a substance, in this case a diuretic often used to mask steroid use, they have to get the state of Minnesota to ban it too. now obviously the state laws are intended for the normal employees, engineers, construction people, doctors, teachers etc. So a diuretic used to mask steroids is not something they're going to ban quickly. So now the NFL has to inform EVERY state everytime they ban a new substance, and make sure those states add it to their banned list. Which is Goodell's whole point, it's way too much work if we have to abide by each state's laws instead of just the agreed upon NFL drug policy.

Ironic that right now I consider the Saints and Vikings to be the 2 best teams in the NFC, and they both have players who would have been suspended if not for this ruling. It's coincidence but sure could be a big story later in the year .

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

The fact that the NFL is waiting for a state ruling is hilarious.. Do they no longer govern their own rules?

If this works out in the Vikings favor, will they amend a state law that reads: While playing at home, Vikings players are now allowed to grab and hold the opposing players receivers without penalty?

 

[Russ Smith]

The fact that the NFL is waiting for a state ruling is hilarious.. Do they no longer govern their own rules?

If this works out in the Vikings favor, will they amend a state law that reads: While playing at home, Vikings players are now allowed to grab and hold the opposing players receivers without penalty?

they're waiting on the court ruling. I guess the NFL is figuring if we just go ahead and say they can't play, we open ourselves up to a huge lawsuit if the court in Minnesota later rules aginst the NFL. The NFL wants the case to be heard in Federal court where it's already essentially been ruled the players have no leg to stand on. But the appeals court ruled in favor of it being heard in state court in Minnesota.

if I were the NFL I'd be doing a background investigation on the judge in Minnesota and the 3 on the panel to see if any of them have Vikings season tickets.

Note I realize every team has players who cheat, not just the Vikings. My issue is using the courts and state laws to get around it when you get caught. I'm so sick of every player who tests positive for pot saying it's a contact high I was at a concert, or steroids it's a tainted supplement etc.
The Cards lost Patrick to a suspension, lots of other NFL players have been suspended, it's nonsense that the Vikings players are being allowed to get around this because of a state law that clearly isn't intended to be applied to NFL players.

Hell if you apply state laws, the 49ers and Raiders can't field NFL teams, the injury rate in the NFL would make their jobs illegal under Cal OSHA laws, they'd have to make massive changes to make the job safer and those changes would not conform to NFL rules, so they can't play in the NFL. You can take this to absurd lengths.

AS to why the Vikings don't just suspend them on their own and get it over with the theory seems to be the Vikings are afraid they will be sued by the players and the state for violating the state law.

I also find it ironic that they're so concerned about state law now but were so decidedly on the other side of the issue just a few years ago when Korey Stringer died during a Vikings practice and his widow was accusing the team and the NFL of ignoring state safety laws.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Hell if you apply state laws, the 49ers and Raiders can't field NFL teams, the injury rate in the NFL would make their jobs illegal under Cal OSHA laws, they'd have to make massive changes to make the job safer and those changes would not conform to NFL rules, so they can't play in the NFL. You can take this to absurd lengths.

I say we hire a Lawyer to look into this.. Maybe we can get the Niners loss from earlier this year ruled illegal, since they're obviously a bunch of no good law-breakers.