Palmer's Game

[82CardsGrad]

So how many years do we keep Palmer. We can't justify paying him 24 million, but say we keep him one year. What if we don't have his replacement on the roster then? Do we keep him 2 more years? Re-sign him and keep him for 3 years? You can't just keep an old QB forever and ever amen.

I believe Palmer's deal ends next season. I am hopeful that BASK and Michael are also aware of that fact... so I am hopeful that they will do whatever is required to locate Palmer's replacement who would be opening day 2018 starter... [emoji106]

 

[Russ Smith]

How it fills holes is that $10 million from Palmer, plus likely Fitz's $6 mil will buy 5 decent free agents. Does that mean a QB as good as Palmer in year one - no. Of course you're assuming Palmer can stay healthy. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the steps are in this "plan" that turns a 6 win team into a 10 win team. I guess only time will settle this. I wouldn't be shocked to see Palmer & Fitz return. I would be shocked if that scenario led to more than 8 wins.

Teh argument is we could have easily won 10 games this year on things that had nothing to do with Palmer, fixing ST's and we win more games. At least 2-3 times this year Palmer drove us down for the game winning FG and we missed.

How does getting rid of him add wins to the team if the QB is going to be Stanton or someone off the street? The only guy out there that seems intriguing is Cutler and there's a reason the Bears are probably going to let him go.

So we're basically doing what every coach who's ever had Cutler did, hope they're the guy that can "fix" him.

It's not a bad plan but it's not any better than bringing Palmer back, plugging other holes and expecting NEXT year in a better QB draft you get your QBOTF.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So I log on today and the first two threads I see are about Palmer and Chandler Jones being the problems. Wow.

Losing does make people lose their minds.

Note: the third thread is about Barkley being QBOF. WOW again.

 

[82CardsGrad]

So I log on today and the first two threads I see are about Palmer and Chandler Jones being the problems. Wow.

Losing does make people lose their minds.

Note: the third thread is about Barkley being QBOF. WOW again.

The Palmer talk is stupid... The Jones talk, not so much... [emoji6]

 

[Russ Smith]

Harry, what I disagree with is your premise that by cutting Palmer we can sign FA's and fill several holes. Sounds good, but there is no assurance that one, we can sign FA's that we covet. And two, we do sign the FA, and they perform the way we want them to. Who knows? But every year we read about mistakes teams make with FA's. Brock Osweiler, being the latest.

That's the other part I was going to make. IN the NFL it's not easy to sign GOOD FA's if you don't have a QB. You can sign the guys who are just chasing another paycheck if you have money but you want the good players that fill a need. Those guys don't look at a team without a QB and assume ok it'll work out.

So then we're counting on Jay Cutler or Tony Romo to lure FA's?

 

[TheCardFan]

The Palmer talk is stupid... The Jones talk, not so much... [emoji6]

Chandler Jones is still one of the best LB's we have had in years. We need him but the question in my mind is how much money will it take to sign him? He is nowhere near Von Miller, so if that is his goal we will have to let him walk or try to trade him using franchise tag (we could probably get our 2nd round pick back).

His game/skill is more like Ryan Kerrigan than Von Miller. Kerrigan signed in 2015 for 5 years/57m (11.5m avg) but the market has changed in 2 years (2015-2017). Justin Houston got 6 years/101m (16.8m avg) in 2015. Von Miller got 6 years/114m (19m avg) in 2016.

Based on the market...what would you pay for Jones?

 

[football karma]

Chandler Jones is still one of the best LB's we have had in years. We need him but the question in my mind is how much money will it take to sign him? He is nowhere near Von Miller, so if that is his goal we will have to let him walk or try to trade him using franchise tag (we could probably get our 2nd round pick back).

His game/skill is more like Ryan Kerrigan than Von Miller. Kerrigan signed in 2015 for 5 years/57m (11.5m avg) but the market has changed in 2 years (2015-2017). Justin Houston got 6 years/101m (16.8m avg) in 2015. Von Miller got 6 years/114m (19m avg) in 2016.

Based on the market...what would you pay for Jones?

your assessment is pretty solid

that being said: the market is a forward looking kind of thing--

meaning: the Justin Houston contract is where it starts, as adjusted for the increase in the salary cap.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Chandler Jones is still one of the best LB's we have had in years. We need him but the question in my mind is how much money will it take to sign him? He is nowhere near Von Miller, so if that is his goal we will have to let him walk or try to trade him using franchise tag (we could probably get our 2nd round pick back).

His game/skill is more like Ryan Kerrigan than Von Miller. Kerrigan signed in 2015 for 5 years/57m (11.5m avg) but the market has changed in 2 years (2015-2017). Justin Houston got 6 years/101m (16.8m avg) in 2015. Von Miller got 6 years/114m (19m avg) in 2016.

Based on the market...what would you pay for Jones?

Saying Jones is one of the best linebackers we've had in years really isn't saying much at all... aside from DWaste, and a one year return from Dansby, we've had zilcho at this position...
What we don't need is the Jones we've seen over the last 5 games or so... a guy who barely registers on the stat sheet is rarely impacting a game.
What we do need is the Jones who we thought we were getting when we made this move. A guy who can consistently threaten the pocket and pressure and/force a QB to move around. A guy who can get you 8-10 sacks on a consistent basis as well.

In terms of money, all I know is I don't believe Jones is worth anywhere near Von Miller money. Given Houston's contract, I would say Jones "should be" around the $15 million per area. But who knows...

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I think this is a BIG NEED, a true FS. Neither Swearinger or Jefferson is a true FS. This I think is a major need of the defense besides ILB.

+1

I've mentioned this before, I thought T Branch was slated to be the FS...instead they use him as nickel corner and HB as the FS - not good for anyone. When Branch returns, they have no choice but to put him back at nickel because we have no HB and no good CBs at nickel.

This was a case of believing players are interchangeable in a system versus putting them where they can thrive. I hope both Keim and Bettcher learn from this year as they are both to fault.

 

[Jetstream Green]

+1

I've mentioned this before, I thought T Branch was slated to be the FS...instead they use him as nickel corner and HB as the FS - not good for anyone. When Branch returns, they have no choice but to put him back at nickel because we have no HB and no good CBs at nickel.

This was a case of believing players are interchangeable in a system versus putting them where they can thrive. I hope both Keim and Bettcher learn from this year as they are both to fault.

I said this in another thread, that the Cardinals right now do not have a legit free safety after they let Rashad Johnson go. They have in my opinion three solid to even great at times strong safeties in Jefferson, Swearinger and Bucannon who plays out of position. Honey Badger will be his old self next year (nobody is coming back from his injury in just a a year) but he is a X factor nickel back with extremely good instincts but he does thrive being the brains of a secondary and playing the free safety position. We are currently talking about the future of the signal caller on offense but we do not have one in the secondary and it shows in our coverage

 

[Stout]

I believe Palmer's deal ends next season. I am hopeful that BASK and Michael are also aware of that fact... so I am hopeful that they will do whatever is required to locate Palmer's replacement who would be opening day 2018 starter... [emoji106]

Thanks for meeting halfway on this subject. I wanted to put that out there first because I didn't want to start with a 'no chance in hell' statement

Except we can't keep him at 24 MILLION dollars against the cap next year. Not a chance in hell. I'm not happy with him as our 2017 QB, not even a little bit right now. I think age has finally caught him up. Nothing for him to be ashamed of. It might be bad enough for him to retire on his own, but it might not. Now, if this team really commits THIS OFFSEASON to finding his replacement, and if he accepts a big pay cut, I can see the argument of keeping Palmer on board for next season. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't want Palmer to be making 24 million next season, I figure?

 

[Chopper0080]

I still struggle to understand how 10 mil extra makes up any gap at QB. With today's rules, you have to have a legendary defense to be deficient at QB and win.

 

[Stout]

I still struggle to understand how 10 mil extra makes up any gap at QB. With today's rules, you have to have a legendary defense to be deficient at QB and win.

That's because you think Palmer will be any good next season. I think age has caught up with him, as do others. How does tying up an extra 10 million and having a finished QB help us win? It doesn't. That's my stance.

Now, if we keep him I will hope and pray I'm wrong, but it's a legit concern. Does Palmer have enough left in the tank to take us to the promised land next season? I severely doubt it. What do others think?

 

[TJ]

That's because you think Palmer will be any good next season. I think age has caught up with him, as do others. How does tying up an extra 10 million and having a finished QB help us win? It doesn't. That's my stance.

Now, if we keep him I will hope and pray I'm wrong, but it's a legit concern. Does Palmer have enough left in the tank to take us to the promised land next season? I severely doubt it. What do others think?

Not sure how much he has "left in the tank" but after 13 games, he's at 22 TDs, 62% completion, and 3700 yards passing. That's considering that most of his prominent targets from 2015 regressed in 2016.

I'm not willing to take the risk of signing another Derek Anderson, John Skelton, et al, to save $10 mil. Plus, if Carson leaves, you might as well bid farewell to Fitz, creating another significant hole.

 

[iLLmatiC]

Here's a quick fix on how you get back to 10 wins with Palmer at his current number:

Retool special teams. New coach and punter. Get competition for Catanzaro

Draft/sign an ILB

Re-sign Calais and franchise jones (re-sign both if possible)

Get a possession receiver

That's it.

But you still have to have that QB under center and you're not gonna get any better with another retread (Cutler or Romo) or an unproven (Glennon).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd say adding a punt returner to the list is important too.

 

[iLLmatiC]

Not sure how much he has "left in the tank" but after 13 games, he's at 22 TDs, 62% completion, and 3700 yards passing. That's considering that most of his prominent targets from 2015 regressed in 2016.

I'm not willing to take the risk of signing another Derek Anderson, John Skelton, et al, to save $10 mil. Plus, if Carson leaves, you might as well bid farewell to Fitz, creating another significant hole.

We've easily forgotten what it's like to not have an NFL QB under center.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not sure how much he has "left in the tank" but after 13 games, he's at 22 TDs, 62% completion, and 3700 yards passing. That's considering that most of his prominent targets from 2015 regressed in 2016.

I'm not willing to take the risk of signing another Derek Anderson, John Skelton, et al, to save $10 mil. Plus, if Carson leaves, you might as well bid farewell to Fitz, creating another significant hole.

And good luck signing viable FA's with the money you get from Palmer. When they ask "who's the QB" what is the response, I don't think Cutler or Romo is going to get any FA's excited.

Yes the cap money would be nice, but to be able to use it you have to have a QB.

 

[TheCardFan]

I still struggle to understand how 10 mil extra makes up any gap at QB. With today's rules, you have to have a legendary defense to be deficient at QB and win.

Can one of our cap experts explain how Palmer's contract works for next year? When he signed his extension, 2017 became guaranteed. What are our options/flexibility from a cap perspective? I am 100% sure he will be back next year and should be.

 

[Snakester]

I think Palmer should be kept for next season. I would ask him to take a pay cut. We do need to find a QBOTF though. I would have Palmer help train the new kid next year to get him ready for 2018. Ideally I would like to keep Palmer as the backup for the 18-19 seasons and to mentor the new kid.

On offense I would both sign and draft a WR. Draft a QB in the first round. Sign a RG and draft rb Donnell Pumphrey in the third round to be The backup to David Johnson.

 

[Chopper0080]

Can one of our cap experts explain how Palmer's contract works for next year? When he signed his extension, 2017 became guaranteed. What are our options/flexibility from a cap perspective? I am 100% sure he will be back next year and should be.

So, per over the cap, if we cut Palmer next year we would incur 13.2 mil in dead money, but save 10.8. The problem with make the move is that any QB you may look to sign is going to be over 10 mil so there really isn't any savings. 22 QBs are scheduled to make over 10mil as a cap hit in 2017. If you signed the bottom tier of this, 10 mil, it would still total 23.2 mil towards the starting QB spot vs the 24.1 mil for Palmer.

This is why it doesn't make sense.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Thanks for meeting halfway on this subject. I wanted to put that out there first because I didn't want to start with a 'no chance in hell' statement

Except we can't keep him at 24 MILLION dollars against the cap next year. Not a chance in hell. I'm not happy with him as our 2017 QB, not even a little bit right now. I think age has finally caught him up. Nothing for him to be ashamed of. It might be bad enough for him to retire on his own, but it might not. Now, if this team really commits THIS OFFSEASON to finding his replacement, and if he accepts a big pay cut, I can see the argument of keeping Palmer on board for next season. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't want Palmer to be making 24 million next season, I figure?

I want Palmer as our QB next season as their is no other viable option. I also believe that people are using him as an easy target given the crappiness of this season... meanwhile, Carson has performed exceedingly well while being forced to contend with a ridiculously revamped oline and a receiving corps that, aside from Fitz and DJ (and the occasional contributions from Gresham & Fells), offers nothing.
Yesterday is a good example... per Pro Football Focus, Palmer had a rating of over 120 while under pressure. And had Nelson not dropped that beauty from Palmer, he would've had a completion % over 50% on passes over 25 yards.
I think with Palmer we are a legit post season contender... without him we are 4-5 win team. I just don't think we need to dump him in order to somehow better set up our future. I believe we can and should keep him, allowing us to make a legit playoff run which would be tremendous for Fitz, and either thru the draft, Trade or FA, grab our QBOF...

 

[Stout]

So, per over the cap, if we cut Palmer next year we would incur 13.2 mil in dead money, but save 10.8. The problem with make the move is that any QB you may look to sign is going to be over 10 mil so there really isn't any savings. 22 QBs are scheduled to make over 10mil as a cap hit in 2017. If you signed the bottom tier of this, 10 mil, it would still total 23.2 mil towards the starting QB spot vs the 24.1 mil for Palmer.

This is why it doesn't make sense.

And again on this board someone is considering an opinion so factual it doesn't need to be stated. Palmer might be garbage next year. THAT'S why it makes sense. If age catches up and he sucks, it totally makes sense.

 

[Chopper0080]

And again on this board someone is considering an opinion so factual it doesn't need to be stated. Palmer might be garbage next year. THAT'S why it makes sense. If age catches up and he sucks, it totally makes sense.

If that is your argument, the 10mil QB that you sign to replace him may be horrible as well. If we aren't going to speculate, what is the purpose of the board?

My point is that the money saving argument regarding cutting Palmer is inaccurate.

in terms of Palmer's productivity, name me a QB for 10 mil that the Cards could sign who is likely to outperform Palmer? I ask because I haven't found one yet.

 

[nashman]

Because Brady is the rule, not the exception, right? Wrong. You're going to tell me that Palmer's like a fine wine and he's getting better, not worse, with age? I don't see how anyone can agree with this.

I'm not going to argue with you but he's gotten better every year here, not counting this season in which the Oline has been a disaster. And one could easily argue Palmer has excellent numbers behind this atrocious mixing of the line all season. You don't hear saints fans saying get rid of Brees he sucks and she has caught up to him, teams have bad years it happens. If our STs wasnt the worst in football we easily have 3-5 more wins with this awful line. So shore up the STs, get a corner opposite PP, fix the damn Oline this team can beat anyone! Palmer is not the problem right now. And I would think Palmer being the guy he is would do ala Larry and renegotiate to a deal to help the team, he doesn't seem like a chase the money guy. It would be nice to keep CC but judging by his comments he is going straight Dansby and gonna chase dollars so would be shocked if we keep him. Jones is at least younger and could be a force for us. Going with a new QB just pretty much blows the team up and makes it difficult to even attract quality players here, players respect Palmer, Fitz they are huge in recruiting. And I am of the belief Fitz may be tied to Palmer, he does not want to go to some unproven QB he has had enough of that nonsense!

 

[oaken1]

And again on this board someone is considering an opinion so factual it doesn't need to be stated. Palmer might be garbage next year. THAT'S why it makes sense. If age catches up and he sucks, it totally makes sense.

manning was pretty much garbage for the broncos last season...but they won it all and peyton walked away

there is not a QB better than Palmer for 10 mil or less that is in the league IMNSHO...

personally, I think we need to identify our QB in THIS draft, get him, train him, start him...and have Palmer on the sidelines talking in his ear all game...and if the kid fails send Palmer back in. The 24 million is spent already and cutting Palmer does not really help the team at all...using his strengths....ie,...his mind, experience, and leadership....that does help the team... building through the draft is the only way this team is going to get better and draft picks play cheap compared to vets.....in essence,..keep Palmer and place the future success of the team right where it belongs...in Steve Keims lap...it is time for him to start drafting players that can play.