Player changes so far.

[Chaz]

All this complaining about this player or that had me thinking.

Let look at who is coming and going here. Sure it is not like last year or the year before with player changes and who is replacing who but with the exception Banks many want to complain about the players the Suns have added.


Out: Eddie House - In: Marcus Banks
I think we all can agree this is an upgrade. I know some people miss House for his shooting but in reality he was streaky at best and non existent once defenses were paying close attention to him.

Out: Brian Grant - In: Sean Marks
Brian missed a good part of the season with an injury and never contributed much. Marks looks to be a better shooter and can actually move. If he actually gets onto the court I guess we will see. Unless he is also out for most of the year he should be an improvement.

Out: Tim Thomas - In: Amare Stoudemire
Yes, Amare was on the team last year but as we all know he didn't play so I am counting him as an addition. Thomas was our PF/C for the playoffs and in that role I see Amare as a more than adequate replacement.

Out: Dijon Thompson - In: Eric Piakowski
Even if Pike is only a lockerroom guy then he is already an upgrade over Thompson. If he actually does anything on the court it is a bonus.

Besides Skita who else did we lose? Did I forget anyone?

Add Kurt Thomas and consider the Suns are the WC runners up and I think we are in pretty good shape.

I agree it would be nice to add another body up front but I though the same thing last year (which never happened) and the season turned out OK.

 

[Muggum]

Is Marks official?

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Good post. Breaking it out like that makes me fell better about this offseason. To this point, the only good thing (actually, GREAT thing) the Suns have done is sign Banks. But, looking at it this way makes sense. It shows that we have essentially replaced our roster from last year with upgrades from Banks and Stoudemire....

 

[George O'Brien]

It's hard to seriously upgrade a team that started out with two returning guys to make an eight man rotation. Adding Banks is nine.

Beyond nine, the Suns are talking about guys who won't play unless there is more than one injury. It is hard enough to believe D'Antoni will play nine guys much less ten. Guys who are good enough to make a difference are too good to want to just sit and hope somebody will get hurt.

 

[Chaz]

Is Marks official?

It is now.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0727seanmarks-CR.html


Suns add Marks to frontcourt
Sixth international player to join Suns roster

Jul. 27, 2006 02:57 PM


The Phoenix Suns added to their frontcourt Thursday with the signing of unrestricted free-agent Sean Marks to a one-year contract.

 

[F-Dog]

Out: Tim Thomas - In: Nothing

Out: #27 pick - In: three million dollars

These are the two problems with this year's offseason.


The idea that Amare's return somehow makes Tim Thomas unnecessary is laughable; you'll notice the Suns are still scrambling for another forward as we speak. Plus, the team has had trouble with new players shooting blanks in the clutch each of the past two years, so there's no reason to think it will be any different this year.

Selling a first-round pick for cash is bad karma--you can say the Spurs are cheap (and they are) but they haven't sold any of their picks yet, despite fielding a championship favorite year after year. I think you have to start asking yourself whether this ownership group deserves to win a championship.



If the Suns had another decent body in the backcourt last season, they could easily have won a chip. Players get hurt every year, especially in the playoffs, and it's foolish to assume the 2006-7 Suns will be the exception.

 

[Chaz]

Out: Tim Thomas - In: Nothing

Out: #27 pick - In: three million dollars

These are the two problems with this year's offseason.


The idea that Amare's return somehow makes Tim Thomas unnecessary is laughable; you'll notice the Suns are still scrambling for another forward as we speak. Plus, the team has had trouble with new players shooting blanks in the clutch each of the past two years, so there's no reason to think it will be any different this year.

Selling a first-round pick for cash is bad karma--you can say the Spurs are cheap (and they are) but they haven't sold any of their picks yet, despite fielding a championship favorite year after year. I think you have to start asking yourself whether this ownership group deserves to win a championship.



If the Suns had another decent body in the backcourt last season, they could easily have won a chip. Players get hurt every year, especially in the playoffs, and it's foolish to assume the 2006-7 Suns will be the exception.

They are scrambling to sign a forward? Talk about spin.

Is Amare an addition from last years team or not? Will Amare be playing the position Thomas played in the playoffs last year or not? I never said Thomas is unneeded or unwanted because of Amare's return but it would put a pinch on his minutes.

They had a chance at TT and decided he was a luxury. Even though he played that position last year he is not a rebounding 4/5 which is what most people agree is the Suns biggest need at this point.

New players shooting blanks? New players like Diaw and Bell? Or only we only looking at certain players that fit our preconcieved notions?

Also didn't the Spurs give away their only pick this year?


I am not say it is all wine and roses here but it is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

 

[F-Dog]

Also didn't the Spurs give away their only pick this year?

No, they didn't. They traded the pick for something useful (Nazr Mohammad). That's what the responsible teams do with unwanted first-round picks.


If nosing around Devean George doesn't count as scrambling, what verb would you prefer?


The other side of Raja and TT (not Diaw) is Q, Walter McCarty, Eddie House, and James Jones. That's four guys in two years. I don't think it takes much prescience to assume that the Suns will need another shooter in next year's playoffs.


Hey, if you're going to spin things sunny-side up, you have to expect someone else will show up with the other side of the coin, right?

 

[Chaz]

No, they didn't. They traded the pick for something useful (Nazr Mohammad). That's what the responsible teams do with unwanted first-round picks.

I was refering to the one pick they did have. Plus didn't they just let Mohammad walk this off season.

If nosing around Devean George doesn't count as scrambling, what verb would you prefer?

It was said (by someone) that they were interested. That could be true or not. Also I would consider scrambling and nosing around as synonymous even over George.

Hey, if you're going to spin things sunny-side up, you have to expect someone else will show up with the other side of the coin, right?

I am glad you showed up.

I just don't agree that we have a gloomy off season going here.
So far I give them a C. Not a lot of improvement but not a step back either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They had a chance at TT and decided he was a luxury.

I think it's laughable (and this isn't directed at you Chaz) that a team who hasn't even made the Finals, much less has gone only 3-8 in the WCF the past two years and have been hit by lack of depth both seasons can consider ANYONE a luxury.

When a team starts winning titles, they can claim they can't afford luxuries IMO. Until then, I'd rather not hear the term "luxury" thrown around because it makes it seem like we're already where we want to be and last time I looked, I don't see any banners hanging in AWA. It's the one thing that kind of bothers me about DA. While I love his confidence, the guy hasn't won jack squat so far, yet he and Sarver (IMO) act as if we're a dynasty already.

 

[Chaz]

I think it's laughable (and this isn't directed at you Chaz) that a team who hasn't even made the Finals, much less has gone only 3-8 in the WCF the past two years and have been hit by lack of depth both seasons can consider ANYONE a luxury.

When a team starts winning titles, they can claim they can't afford luxuries IMO. Until then, I'd rather not hear the term "luxury" thrown around because it makes it seem like we're already where we want to be and last time I looked, I don't see any banners hanging in AWA. It's the one thing that kind of bothers me about DA. While I love his confidence, the guy hasn't won jack squat so far, yet he and Sarver (IMO) act as if we're a dynasty already.

Thomas was a luxury, at that price (20+ Million).

Well even if they are totally willing to go over the luxury tax the financial options are limited because they are over the cap. They had the MLE and the trade exception to go shopping with.

Would you rather have Thomas or Banks at this point?

I tend to trust D'Antonis assessment that a backup PG is more important. Of couse they did tend to stumble onto Banks by luck.

So far Banks coming to the Suns on his own may have saved the offseason. At least so far.

 

[F-Dog]

I was refering to the one pick they did have. Plus didn't they just let Mohammad walk this off season.

Sure, and before that, he was the starting center for their last championship team.

Even if he'd been a bust, though, the Spurs were trying to get better, not giving up on improving themselves and using their assets to funnel money into the owner's pocket.

It was said (by someone) that they were interested. That could be true or not. Also I would consider scrambling and nosing around as synonymous even over George.

If they wind up with KVH instead (as I predicted), I'm sure you'll have a whole new set of synonyms.

I just don't agree that we have a gloomy off season going here. So far I give them a C. Not a lot of improvement but not a step back either.

When a team is as close as the Suns are, I think they have to make sacrifices and take risks to strengthen themselves in the present. The Suns haven't shown any willingness to do that...I'd give them a 'D' right now.

At this point, I think the Suns have to make a trade if they're going to have a successful offseason.

 

[Chaz]

All this talk about trading away pick just to line the owners pockets and not improving the team is an assumption. Is it not possible they thought the best way to improve the team was to spend the money some place other than in the rookie they could of had? Maybe you are right but I but I don't think it is a given.


If the sign KVH the grade definitely drops.


I loved KVH on the Mavs. He can't hit a clutch shot and plays <0 defense.

I think they need to round out the roster with a banger. A dirt worker as Cotton used to say.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thomas was a luxury, at that price (20+ Million).

Well even if they are totally willing to go over the luxury tax the financial options are limited because they are over the cap. They had the MLE and the trade exception to go shopping with.

Would you rather have Thomas or Banks at this point?

I tend to trust D'Antonis assessment that a backup PG is more important. Of couse they did tend to stumble onto Banks by luck.

So far Banks coming to the Suns on his own may have saved the offseason. At least so far.

As far as trusting DA's assessment that a backup PG is more important, well, that kindof flies in the face of what happened at the beginningof FA. What would have happened if TT tok that money? There wouldn't have been any money left for a backup PG andd since that waas the first thing we did out of the gate, I'd assume it was our numbe one goal, as misguided as it may have been monetarily wise and personnel wise (in some people's opinions).

Second, why did it have to Banks OR Thomas? Why not both? After all, with the trade exemption starting at 3.6, couldn't they have swung a trade with Minny for him considering that's about where his contract is starting anyway? An you'd think Minny would be happier getting SOMETHING for Banks, TE and maybe even a 2nd round pick, than losing him for nothing, which is what happened. Thus, you could have gotten Thomas back AND traded fo Banks.

I just don't see how this is an either or scenario. I'd rather have both and it seemed like we had the ability/wherewithall to get both. And I don't see how a team that hasn't even reahed the Finals yet and has their two power player coming back from injuries (one VERY SERIOUS) can even start to talk abut luxuries. Luxury is something the best can do without because they are the best. We haven't shown that, thus I don't think the term can be used.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Tim Thomas was a mid-season replacement for

Kurt Thomas and Amare Stoudemire.

When those two come back healthy, his role is completely diminished. In the modern NBA, lux tax, cap restricted world--signing him would have been a luxury.

Repeat, he wasn't a luxury last year, but he would be this year. That's just how the NBA works.

 

[Joe Mama]

Tim Thomas was a mid-season replacement for

Kurt Thomas and Amare Stoudemire.

When those two come back healthy, his role is completely diminished. In the modern NBA, lux tax, cap restricted world--signing him would have been a luxury.

Repeat, he wasn't a luxury last year, but he would be this year. That's just how the NBA works.

assuming one or both of those guys don't end up injured for a long period of time again this season.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

Tim Thomas was a mid-season replacement for

Kurt Thomas and Amare Stoudemire.

When those two come back healthy, his role is completely diminished. In the modern NBA, lux tax, cap restricted world--signing him would have been a luxury.

Repeat, he wasn't a luxury last year, but he would be this year. That's just how the NBA works.

sorry, but when you only have ONE backup Power player to back up TWO spot (PF and C) and have the guys that are coming back are coming off a series of SERIOUS injuries and the other couldn't make it through the season and is 33 going on 34, I'd hardly call another solid backup big man a luxury - especially when you haven't proven the ability to win squat and depth problems have reared it's ugly head in two consecutive playoff thrashings in the WCF.

And bottom line - teams that want to win titles and haven't shouldn't talk about luxuries. Luxries come AFTER you've proven the ability to put togetehr a team that can win a title. Until then, you should be doing everything in your power to win.

 

[arthurracoon]

sorry, but when you only have ONE backup Power player to back up TWO spot (PF and C) and have the guys that are coming back are coming off a series of SERIOUS injuries and the other couldn't make it through the season and is 33 going on 34, I'd hardly call another solid backup big man a luxury - especially when you haven't proven the ability to win squat and depth problems have reared it's ugly head in two consecutive playoff thrashings in the WCF.

And bottom line - teams that want to win titles and haven't shouldn't talk about luxuries. Luxries come AFTER you've proven the ability to put togetehr a team that can win a title. Until then, you should be doing everything in your power to win.

 

[Mainstreet]

sorry, but when you only have ONE backup Power player to back up TWO spot (PF and C) and have the guys that are coming back are coming off a series of SERIOUS injuries and the other couldn't make it through the season and is 33 going on 34, I'd hardly call another solid backup big man a luxury - especially when you haven't proven the ability to win squat and depth problems have reared it's ugly head in two consecutive playoff thrashings in the WCF.

And bottom line - teams that want to win titles and haven't shouldn't talk about luxuries. Luxries come AFTER you've proven the ability to put togetehr a team that can win a title. Until then, you should be doing everything in your power to win.

Give the Suns a ear full Cheesebeef.

I want a Suns Championship banner in Phoenix before I'm layed to rest.

 

[SirStefan32]

Thomas was a luxury, at that price (20+ Million).

You know Chaz, I used to think that, but after seeing how much money other free agents are getting, I just think TT was a bargain at that price.

 

[Chaz]

You know Chaz, I used to think that, but after seeing how much money other free agents are getting, I just think TT was a bargain at that price.

I am not saying I wouldn't have signed him for that but I understand D'Antoni's call with limited options financially from being over the cap.

With his playoff performance history I might have signed him just to keep him away from the Clippers.

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the problems with following lines of "reasoning" on this board is that I can't keep track of what positions people take on the various issues being discussed.

1. What was the Suns main priority? Was it PG or anothe big? If you answer PG, they made the right choice. If you answered "big", then obviously TT for the MLE over four was the best selection.

2. Could the Suns have signed both Banks and TT? No. Anyone who ******* about not signing TT is saying they prefer him over Banks.

3. Does it matter what the Suns knew or thought they knew and when they knew it? No. Apparently they thought they had a chance to sign TT for $12, which would have left them $2 million to go after a PG with if no TE deals came through. The fact that they weren't willing to spend their entire MLE on TT suggests THEY thought PG was at least as big a priority as a big.

4. Were they just being cheap in trading the 27th? Maybe, but the key issue was that it would be a guaranteed contract which would apply against the luxury tax once Boris and Leandro's contracts kick in. Is not paying luxury tax on a guy who won't play a sign of being cheap?

5. Will the Suns be FORCED to trade either Marion and/or KT once Boris and Leandro's contracts kick in? Why? Apparently the reason is the luxury tax. But if paying the luxury tax because of keeping an All Star and the team's best interior defender is bad, why is paying luxury tax due to a draft pick, who won't play, a good thing? Ditto with adding an above minimum guy who would be 10th in the rotation at most?

I know that asking for logical consistency is considered unacceptable, but...

 

[jandaman]

Sarver will be willing to be over the luxury tax.. as long as the Suns are contending....

 

[Errntknght]

Logical consistency isn't everything, George... for example, it would be nice to get the story straight. A #27 draft pick would cost $60,000 more than minimum players like Pike or Burke for luxury tax purposes. I'd rather have Maurice Agar, for example, than either one of them.

I'm fine with Banks instead of TT but I was getting ready to be ticked off about the Suns signing Salmons instead.

 

[George O'Brien]

The issue with the 27 wasn't for this year, it was for the second and third years on the contract. If I read it correctly, these guys have one year deals.

Next year the Suns are likely to add a couple of draft picks who can play. It makes no sense to tie up future roster slots and money with guys who won't.