Pro Football Focus diagnoses Kevin Kolb

[Mulli]

And so do I, honestly. But do you want to give up a first-round pick (plus?) for a guy you think can be solid? That's my main issue, as I said. The problem with Kevin Kolb isn't the prospect; it's the cost to get him.

I think that you can get almost identical production from Marc Bulger or Kyle Orton in 2011 as you'd get from Kevin Kolb. The question is whether the security of knowing that you have a quarterback through 2016 (or so) is worth giving up a first-round pick (plus?) for as well as a mid-eight-figure contract.

I am thinking the longer the lockout, the shorter the off-season, the quicker the Eagles want to unload Kolb for a second this year and maybe a bit more. If it is for a pick that can end up in the twenties, that is okay with me though.

 

[Pariah]

What were Hasselback and Delhomme traded for, Pariah?

I don't know. To be honest, I don't even know what the guys I named bodies of work looked like.

I don't think that Kolb is a bad player; my concern is that the price tag is too high for him.

I hear ya, and I'm with you. I wouldn't be irate if they traded a first for him, though. I think he'll be solid for a number of years.

I'd rather have Orton, though. I think Kolb is Orton without having proven it. He might (might!) have a higher ceiling than Orton, but for all intents and purposes I think they're the same player, with Orton being a safer (and cheaper) option.

 

[Pariah]

And so do I, honestly. But do you want to give up a first-round pick (plus?) for a guy you think can be solid?

Yeah, I think you can at the QB position. Otherwise it's a COMPLETE crapshoot when you're spending that same pick on a rookie QB.

JMHO

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't know. To be honest, I don;t eben know what the guys I named bodies of work looked like. I hear ya, and I'm with you. I wouldn't be irate if they traded a first for him, though. I think he'll be solid for a number of years.

I'd rather have Orton, though. I think Kolb is Orton without having proven it. He might (might!) have a higher ceiling than Orton, but for all intents and purposes I think they're the same player, with Orton being a safer (and cheaper) option.

Agree with most of this, although my preference would probably be Palmer by a hair. If it turns into Palmer for a 2nd, and Orton for a 3rd, I think it's a wash.

Like many here, I think he can be good, but to assert it with any sense of certainty is ridiculous.

 

[john h]

Hell, while we're at it, let's make him GM!

Warner thinks Palmer is the best fit, as someone who actually played the position in Whiz's offense, I'll take his opinion over Fitz.

What the hell I was watching the Cards play football before Warner and Fitz were even born. My expert opinion is that Kolb would suck as a Cardinal QB.

 

[john h]

Hell, while we're at it, let's make him GM!

Warner thinks Palmer is the best fit, as someone who actually played the position in Whiz's offense, I'll take his opinion over Fitz.

As bad as things look for us my other team the Cubs appear to be the worst team in MLB as of today. Last night they gave up 7 unearned runs, made 4 errors, and lost 7-5. Just when I thought things could not get worse for the Cubs and Cards they have. I think I am in some sort of black hole. I have lived with the Bidwill family for 78 years. Now my lowly Cubs have the new Ricketts family in charge and each of them are active in running the organization.

 

[Mulli]

As bad as things look for us my other team the Cubs appear to be the worst team in MLB as of today. Last night they gave up 7 unearned runs, made 4 errors, and lost 7-5. Just when I thought things could not get worse for the Cubs and Cards they have. I think I am in some sort of black hole. I have lived with the Bidwill family for 78 years. Now my lowly Cubs have the new Ricketts family in charge and each of them are active in running the organization.

Hendry = Graves.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah, I think you can at the QB position. Otherwise it's a COMPLETE crapshoot when you're spending that same pick on a rookie QB.

JMHO

I don't know. I'm not certain that it's a "complete crapshoot." I understand people being risk-averse when looking at the QB position, but I'm not sure that Kolb has the upside to be as good as someone like Joe Flacco, who is another solid guy on a good team.

I think that Kolb can be a little better than someone like Jason Campbell. Campbell gets a bad rap, but he was taken 25th overall in the 2005 draft. He was taken with the pick after Aaron Rodgers. But when you look at the first round quarterbacks taken in the past five years, the busts (Russell, Quinn, #7) tend to overshadow all the young stars at the position in the NFL right now (Cutler, Ryan, Flacco, Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford) and the futures of guys like Matt Stafford have yet to be written.

IMO, you don't turn your back on a division championship--ever. That's what the Cards did last year going with Anderson over #7 at the end of training camp, no matter how much of a dud #7 was going to be in the lockerroom. IMO, Bulger or Orton are more likely to win the NFC West in 2011 than Kolb is, but Kolb will be playing for longer than either of those guys. But if you can get two solid years from Bulger and develop someone like Nick Foles or John Skelton behind him, you're better off both financially and with a possible talent upgrade.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

As bad as things look for us my other team the Cubs appear to be the worst team in MLB as of today. Last night they gave up 7 unearned runs, made 4 errors, and lost 7-5. Just when I thought things could not get worse for the Cubs and Cards they have. I think I am in some sort of black hole. I have lived with the Bidwill family for 78 years. Now my lowly Cubs have the new Ricketts family in charge and each of them are active in running the organization.

Don't take it personally, but nothing makes me happier than the Cubs fail. Their fans are about the most annoying to me out of any in the state, which is saying something.

 

[TJ]

I don't know. I'm not certain that it's a "complete crapshoot." I understand people being risk-averse when looking at the QB position, but I'm not sure that Kolb has the upside to be as good as someone like Joe Flacco, who is another solid guy on a good team.

I think that Kolb can be a little better than someone like Jason Campbell. Campbell gets a bad rap.

I think you're right in that he's underrated; but as a starting QB, he historically doesn't put up points. He had one season with 20 TDs while at Washington but the previous year, he only put up 13 (he started all 16 games). Don't get me wrong, he is accurate and limits his INTs, but I think he plays too conservative.

The reason I like Kolb is he's fearless. I think he can be much better than Campbell. I figure him to be a guy who can throw for 25+ TDs a season.

Going back to asking price, I'd be ok with giving up two 2nd rounders. A first rounder would hurt, but if it meant a playoff sport, that pick would be in the 20s rather than drafting in the first hour.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's weird that many of Kolb's critics will still admit that the guy has some promise in a lot of areas, but his defenders insist that there are no warts on the guy at all and that they're baffled that people don't think he's the second coming.

you know what's weird? saying people are insisting that the guy has no warts on the guy and that they're baffled when people don't think he's the second coming when the over-whelming majority of the people who want to make a move for him have never said anything even remotely close to the above.

I think I've seen ONE person compare him to Kurt Warner (and that person is off his rocker). Otherwise, seems like the majority of people who want to make the move realize he's a risk, but think he's got potential and think the team needs to take a risk at this point in the franchise's history. how that equals "no warts" and is "the second coming" is a bit of a head scratcher to me.

 

[HoodieBets]

you know what's weird? saying people are insisting that the guy has no warts on the guy and that they're baffled when people don't think he's the second coming when the over-whelming majority of the people who want to make a move for him have never said anything even remotely close to the above.

I think I've seen ONE person compare him to Kurt Warner (and that person is off his rocker). Otherwise, seems like the majority of people who want to make the move realize he's a risk, but think he's got potential and think the team needs to take a risk at this point in the franchise's history. how that equals "no warts" and is "the second coming" is a bit of a head scratcher to me.

Kolb may not be the next Warner but he may be good enough to help us win for the next 6 years which is more then I can say for the other guys. Hassleback and Bulger each have 2-3 years left and Palmer is way too injury prone to rely on. The only other option is Skelton and im not willing to go down that road yet.

My theory is if we trade a 1st for Kolb we should win the division which would at the very lowest make that pick #20 which is fair value because you def arent going to find a NFL ready QB if you draft outside the top 10. We cant wait 3 more years to find a QB this might be our best shot. BTW I truly believe if we dont have a competent QB Fitz is gone which should add incentive to add someone who will stick around for the long haul.

 

[kerouac9]

Kolb may not be the next Warner but he may be good enough to help us win for the next 6 years which is more then I can say for the other guys. Hassleback and Bulger each have 2-3 years left and Palmer is way too injury prone to rely on. The only other option is Skelton and im not willing to go down that road yet.

My theory is if we trade a 1st for Kolb we should win the division which would at the very lowest make that pick #20 which is fair value because you def arent going to find a NFL ready QB if you draft outside the top 10. We cant wait 3 more years to find a QB this might be our best shot. BTW I truly believe if we dont have a competent QB Fitz is gone which should add incentive to add someone who will stick around for the long haul.

Why is this a fact? People keep stating it like we for some reason can't survive as a franchise if we have Kyle Orton or Marc Bulger starting for two years while we figure out what John Skelton has or develop a guy like Landry Jones.

I get that people aren't happy with having a question mark at the QB position for the long term, but there's no reason to "settle" for Kolb if you don't think he can be anything more than "solid."

 

[HoodieBets]

Why is this a fact? People keep stating it like we for some reason can't survive as a franchise if we have Kyle Orton or Marc Bulger starting for two years while we figure out what John Skelton has or develop a guy like Landry Jones.

What happens if Skelton doesnt work out so now we have two years of mediocrity from an aging QB or a Qb we know isnt worth a damn and we are back at square one where we draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round and sign another mid 30's vet to hold us over til the QBOF is ready. This is what we were after Plummer left and I dont want to expierence times like that again where we see junk QB's like Jeff Blake and Josh McCown.

 

[ARodg]

I think you're right in that he's underrated; but as a starting QB, he historically doesn't put up points. He had one season with 20 TDs while at Washington but the previous year, he only put up 13 (he started all 16 games). Don't get me wrong, he is accurate and limits his INTs, but I think he plays too conservative.

The reason I like Kolb is he's fearless. I think he can be much better than Campbell. I figure him to be a guy who can throw for 25+ TDs a season.

Going back to asking price, I'd be ok with giving up two 2nd rounders. A first rounder would hurt, but if it meant a playoff sport, that pick would be in the 20s rather than drafting in the first hour.

Why do you keep saying that he's fearless?

 

[kerouac9]

What happens if Skelton doesnt work out[?] so now we have two years of mediocrity from an aging QB or a Qb we know isnt worth a damn and we are back at square one where we draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round and sign another mid 30's vet to hold us over til the QBOF is ready. This is what we were after Plummer left and I dont want to expierence times like that again where we see junk QB's like Jeff Blake and Josh McCown.

1. If Skelton doesn't work out then you're out a 5th round pick. Oh, well. You don't need to start Skelton for 10 games to find out whether he's the answer. Heck, the Eagles only needed to start Kolb for 2 games to find out he was the answer, and then another 4 to find out that he wasn't. The Cards should have a better idea of Skelton's potential if he's the #2 for most of the 2011 season.

2. If Skelton doesn't seem to have a bright future after this season, then you can feel confident drafting Landry, Luck, Barkley, or Foles in the first round next year. There's no reason why the Cards have to go the inexpensive route.

3. People like you were asserting that McCown (like Kolb, actually) was essentially a rookie and deserved more of a chance, including ahead of Kurt Warner. They asserted it right up until he was a free agent and off the team, at which point he was a scrub who would never amount to anything.

 

[TJ]

Why do you keep saying that he's fearless?

Why does a Packer fan post incessantly on a Cardinals MB?

 

[TJ]

1. If Skelton doesn't work out then you're out a 5th round pick. Oh, well. You don't need to start Skelton for 10 games to find out whether he's the answer. Heck, the Eagles only needed to start Kolb for 2 games to find out he was the answer, and then another 4 to find out that he wasn't. The Cards should have a better idea of Skelton's potential if he's the #2 for most of the 2011 season.

2. If Skelton doesn't seem to have a bright future after this season, then you can feel confident drafting Landry, Luck, Barkley, or Foles in the first round next year. There's no reason why the Cards have to go the inexpensive route.

3. People like you were asserting that McCown (like Kolb, actually) was essentially a rookie and deserved more of a chance, including ahead of Kurt Warner. They asserted it right up until he was a free agent and off the team, at which point he was a scrub who would never amount to anything.

K-9

I see all of these wagers in your signature. Just curious. What happens if you lose all of them? Do you have to change your avatar and your name or something?

 

[kerouac9]

K-9

I see all of these wagers in your signature. Just curious. What happens if you lose all of them? Do you have to change your avatar and your name or something?

No. Each is time-blocked. If DesertDawg wins, then he chooses my avatar for the first month of the season, but I can wager the avatar (or put in my own) for the last five months. If Shane wins, then I have to keep his chosen avatar from the end of the regular season until the Combine (or whatever I say there).

Thankfully, I don't plan on losing either of these bets, so I'll have a lot of avatar choosing to do.

 

[HoodieBets]

1. If Skelton doesn't work out then you're out a 5th round pick. Oh, well. You don't need to start Skelton for 10 games to find out whether he's the answer. Heck, the Eagles only needed to start Kolb for 2 games to find out he was the answer, and then another 4 to find out that he wasn't. The Cards should have a better idea of Skelton's potential if he's the #2 for most of the 2011 season.

2. If Skelton doesn't seem to have a bright future after this season, then you can feel confident drafting Landry, Luck, Barkley, or Foles in the first round next year. There's no reason why the Cards have to go the inexpensive route.

3. People like you were asserting that McCown (like Kolb, actually) was essentially a rookie and deserved more of a chance, including ahead of Kurt Warner. They asserted it right up until he was a free agent and off the team, at which point he was a scrub who would never amount to anything.

Your nuts if you think Kolb didnt start because the Eagles didnt think he could cut it. He didnt start because of the MVP type performance of Vick last year that he only got the chance to do because clay matthews pounded Kolb. Kolb beat out Vick in training camp.

I dont feel comfortable drafting any of those QB's and this team needs to think about a QB to win this year not just someone to keep the spot warm. They have a very realistic chance to win the division if they have a decent QB.

Finally if you can find that ish about me wanting McCown to have more time I'd love to see it.

 

[kerouac9]

Your nuts if you think Kolb didnt start because the Eagles didnt think he could cut it. He didnt start because of the MVP type performance of Vick last year that he only got the chance to do because clay matthews pounded Kolb. Kolb beat out Vick in training camp.

I dont feel comfortable drafting any of those QB's and this team needs to think about a QB to win this year not just someone to keep the spot warm. They have a very realistic chance to win the division if they have a decent QB.

Finally if you can find that ish about me wanting McCown to have more time I'd love to see it.

And then Vick beat out Kolb when the games started counting. Go figure.

Bulger, Orton, and Palmer are all capable of winning this year--maybe more so than Kolb. If the short-term veteran we get succeeds and leads us to the playoffs, then can go another season (a la Warner) while we continue to develop Skelton and/or a 1st round rookie.

Of course, when you're starting awesome threads like this one, it's easy to trust you evaluation of quarterbacks:

[QUOTE-azcardsfan1616]I think Parsons is a better QB. I think he proved that in pre-season. I think parsons has more a shot to be the cards starter for the future than McCown.[/QUOTE]

 

[HoodieBets]

Of course, when you're starting awesome threads like this one, it's easy to trust you evaluation of quarterbacks:

[QUOTE-azcardsfan1616]I think Parsons is a better QB. I think he proved that in pre-season. I think parsons has more a shot to be the cards starter for the future than McCown.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/why-is-everyone-17983.html?highlight=McCown[/QUOTE]

You said I said I wanted to give McCown more time then you post this which shows you made up your last statement and totally contradicts what you wrote. I was right tho Parsons did play better then McCown and would have been better off starting then that clown.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

And then Vick beat out Kolb when the games started counting. Go figure.

The way he played, other than the upper-echelon established QB's like Manning,Brady,Brees, and the like, who wouldn't have Vick beaten out?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I've stated my opinion on numerous threads on this topic. IMO this is how we should go about looking for a QB:

Bulger
Orton
Kolb
Palmer
Hasselbeck
Young

Ok so that's the list of guys that we have identified as being "out there". Which ones have played poorly recently, have major injury questions and are older? Palmer, Bulger, and Hasselbeck. Move them to the back of the list. Who doesn't fit with what the team looks for in a QB (mentally, physically, etc.)? Young. Move him off the list.

So that leaves you with Orton and Kolb at the top of this list. Which player has the perceived higher upside? IMO that's Kolb; he's younger, has more of that "gunslinger" mentality, and is more of a leader. That put's him at the top of my list over Orton. To the naysayers: If you compared Orton's early career numbers to Kolb's numbers in spot playing time, you'd see that Orton was WORSE, but once he had a chance to establish himself a bit in Denver, he started playing mostly pretty well.

Now Kolb is the top of my list, but you have to factor in the compensation. If Denver is asking for a third rounder and the Eagles are asking for a 1st and a 2nd, I'll take Orton and use him as the bridge to the future, though IMO Orton is a legitimate solid starter in the NFL in the Chris Chandler/ Steve Beuerlein mold. But this isn't a vaccuum, the Cardinals IMO are clearly the destination for one of these QBs and the Eagles are likely to lower their demands in we play the FA market/Trade Market against them. None of the other possible Orton/Kolb destinations are likely to give up what we will because they all have either spent a recent high pick on a QB (Miami) or have traded for a guy (Seattle).

So the Eagles are likely to lower their demands and accept two 2nd rounders for Kolb. Under that scenario, the Cards would have Kolb, Skelton, and Bartel as the QB trio, and if they don't work out, we'll have a high 1st rounder next season and will be able to land a guy like Landry Jones or Matt Barkley.

Warner's thoughts on Kevin Kolb (IMO more of an endorsement than he gave #7)
http://arizonasports.com/?sid=1411588&nid=40

 

[kerouac9]

So the Eagles are likely to lower their demands and accept two 2nd rounders for Kolb. Under that scenario, the Cards would have Kolb, Skelton, and Bartel as the QB trio, and if they don't work out, we'll have a high 1st rounder next season and will be able to land a guy like Landry Jones or Matt Barkley.

Warner's thoughts on Kevin Kolb (IMO more of an endorsement than he gave #7)
http://arizonasports.com/?sid=1411588&nid=40

I'm with you on everything but this. If you trade for Kolb, you're not only giving up the two second-rounders (which is as far as I'd go for a guy who wasn't nearly as good in spot duty/early starts as Cassel or Schaub), you're also giving up a six-year, $64 million contract and paying him $40 million or more in the first three years of the deal. Somewhere between Matt Cassel's last contract (six years, $63 million, $28 million in the first two years and over $40 million through the third year--that's slightly less than what the Raiders paid JaMarcus Russell) and Aaron Rodgers's extension (six-years, $65 million, $20 million guaranteed--which is a real bargain made after Rodgers had only started 8 games).

Such a commitment precludes any further development or experimentation with John Skelton, and certainly prevents the Cards from investing a high first-round pick in the position whether it's Luck, Barkeley, Foles, or Landry.

If you trade for Kolb, you better be extremely certain that he's going to be a Top 15 QB for the foreseeable future. If you just think he's the best available guy right now, and you're desperate for any long-term answer for the future, go with a stop-gap like Orton.

I don't really have a lot of problem with the promise that Kolb has as a starter (especially for the West Coast offense that we don't run); my issue is with making this guy the centerpiece of your franchise when we're so incredibly desperate for a QB.