Questions for Cards fans

[sundevilfan99]

A couple questions for you...

How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

If you believe that the team will improve, please show me an example.

Do you believe it is ethical for a for-profit entity to sue a not-for-profit entity simply to increase profits?

Do you believe it is ethical to sue a public entity after the public votes to give the for-profit company a $350M stadium?

Do you believe that the Cardinals have been 'good-faith' bargainers with regard to the stadium? With their first round draft picks? With anyone?

Please list those with whom you believe the Cardinals have bargained in good faith.

How will it personally hurt you should the Cards lose the suit? How will it hurt the Cards?

Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

Do you believe that gutting the ASU athletic department helps you or the Cardinals?

SDF99 (aka NED)

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

(NED)

Great insight in to the tru mission of the department. Notice the football team and basketball teams werne't lumped in with the masses.

ASU has dumped sports in the past and, in those cases, were not able to blame the Cardinals.

ASU has dumped support staff for those minor sports and, in those cases, were not able to blame the Cardinals.

ASU, despite all of that, was still able to make Dirk Koetter one of the highest paid employees in the state of Arizona.

So, yeah, I can see how all of the ills in Tempe can be laid squarley at the feet of the Cardinals.

 

[ds512az]

Personnally it won't hurt me one bit. ASU should live up to the contract that they signed. Period. An unbiased arbitrator ruled in favor of the Cards. Period. Stop the underhanded media slam against the Cards. Period.

My opinion. Period.

 

[sundevilfan99]

Re: Re: Questions for Cards fans

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
Great insight in to the tru mission of the department. Notice the football team and basketball teams werne't lumped in with the masses.

ASU has dumped sports in the past and, in those cases, were not able to blame the Cardinals.

ASU has dumped support staff for those minor sports and, in those cases, were not able to blame the Cardinals.

ASU, despite all of that, was still able to make Dirk Koetter one of the highest paid employees in the state of Arizona.

So, yeah, I can see how all of the ills in Tempe can be laid squarley at the feet of the Cardinals.

I notice you ignored pretty much all of my post. Congrats on sticking your head in the sand.

It's true that ASU has had to trim the budget and sports before, but that was due to title IX compliance and money issues.

I am now talking about the very real result of what would happen should the Cardinals be awarded what they claim their damages are.

Please address the issue...

SDF99 (aka NED)

 

[ajcardfan]

I won't.

Maybe.

Yes. (It's called a 'contract', a legal document.) The government gets sued constantly, often with very good reason. With no control on a public institution, they can abuse power. It's not like ASU athletics is Mother Teresa and her nuns feeding the sick and dying in Calcutta.

Yes.

Yes,yes,yes.

Glendale, TSA, Tempe, Hunt, Mesa, most of their draft picks, etc.
It won't hurt me. Not much.

The ASU Athletic Department needs to be called on the carpet for putting their athletes at risk, if they actually are. Personally, I think the damages, if any are even awarded, will be paid off in such a way that jobs and scholarships are not put at risk.

No. Terms like "gutting" are overdramatic and a hysterical overreaction to something that will not happen, IMO.

 

[WizardOfAz]

What does Koetter's contract have to do with Title IX?

And since when does complying with Title IX mean lowering the standards for existing student/athletes?

Title IX had nothing to do with the recent round of layoffs that the department just went through.

 

[AZ1766]

Do you believe if you make an agreement with somebody you should honor it?

Professional football is a business, do you believe a business should not fight for what is owed them, or even for what they believe is owed them, especially when it is millions of dollars.

The questions you asked could not be asked at the time the agreement was made. They can only be asked, in hindsight for sympathy.
I suspect you lumped the rest of your questions( the ones not pertaining to ASU) in there trying to make your point.

 

[nidan]

I will not benift at all. The question however is a leading question and makes several assumptions.

- There is a lawsuit. No there is not, until ASU went public to sling mud, it was being resolved without the need to resort to the courts.

- That there will or should be a high (subjective term) dmaage award. None of these is known yet.

Not sure what relevance the team improving has to do with this but ok.

- Both first round picks will be in rookie camp
- Superbowl MVP, future Hall of Fame RB, QB, FB all signed as FA
- New QB is better suited to Cardinals offence than old one. Ignoring issues of who is the better QB and assuming a wash (an assumtion I do not share)

A reasonable start to answering that question, I think.

Again you question makes the assumption that the a for profit org should never get into a disbute with a non-profit. To answerthat let's take the emotions out of the equation.

Should a janitorial company sue ASU athletics Dept for non payment of invoices on services delivered ?

If not then, it might be reasonable for the Cardinals not to seek to enforce their contract but then under those rules no public/non profit entity should be held responsible for contracts.

If the answer is yes, then why is it not also true for the Cardinals. Obviously the answer is that you already disliked the Cardinals and could care less if the are in the right or not and would back the ASU AD postion regardless of who is in the right.

The stdium has nothing to do with this other than as amunition for more mud slinging. and let's not forget the Cardinals are putting up $100M+ of that money. The mud slingers like you convieniently forget that bit.

As I said before there is no effect on me and all I and the folks here are asking is that people stopsling mud and unfounded rhetoric.

As for the Cardinals barganing process, you know nothing about it other that what you read and that is mostly supersoition as well. You just take it as a fact as you don't like the Cardinals in the first place.

Why do you think that we support "gutting" ASU athletics. Again you are intentionaly using emotionaly charged language in an attempt to paint the Cardinals as bad.

I ask you, why are you not enraged over the years of mismangement at ASU athletics that has lead to them being in financial trouble. This is just an attempt to blame a handy target for years of poor management.

 

[Card Trader]

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
A couple questions for you...

How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

How will I personally benefit if ASU wins a lawsuit against the Cards? I won't. However, there is one entity that is in the right and one in the wrong here.......as a normal human being I would like to see the one that is right prevail.

If you believe that the team will improve, please show me an example.

You do not know if that money will or will not help the Cardinals sign free agents provide better facilities/gear.....you can't make an educated argument either way so why bring it up?

Do you believe it is ethical for a for-profit entity to sue a not-for-profit entity simply to increase profits?

Not to "simply increase profits"....but to hold the not for profit entity to a contract that they ENTERED INTO WILLINGLY.

Do you believe it is ethical to sue a public entity after the public votes to give the for-profit company a $350M stadium?

What does that have to do with anything? Do you know how the ASU athletic department voted for the stadium? I think not, so it's safe to say that this is a ridiculous statement.

Do you believe that the Cardinals have been 'good-faith' bargainers with regard to the stadium? With their first round draft picks? With anyone?

The first rounders that are in camp?

How will it personally hurt you should the Cards lose the suit? How will it hurt the Cards?

Personally, it won't affect me unless it affects the product the Cardinals produce....and that will solely be an emotional effect.

How it will hurt the Cards, you nor I could make a logical argument either way, so again, a poor argument.

Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

Do you believe that gutting the ASU athletic department helps you or the Cardinals?

SDF99 (aka NED)

How the ASU athletic department wastes their money(yes wastes in many cases) is not concern of me or the Cardinals. The ineptness of the ASU athletic department should not be the question......the question is why did they break an agreement?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Sundevilfan: I am a student at ASU, and I love ASU, almost as much as I love the Cardinals, but your argument holds no water. You make interesting points, but they are all moot, because there is only one point that matters: ASU owes the Cardinals the money. Your argument is based purely on an emotional appeal, and ASU hopes to make the Cardinals out to be the bad guy in this situation, and this is no surprise; when you can't beat them from a legal standpoint, attack them from a emotional, and so-called "moral" standpoint. This argument is getting out of control, and if you want to have any credence at this board, please come with a well thought out discussion with fact, instead of your anti-Cardinals rhetoric.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

(NED)

Lawsuit? I thought both parties agreed to the arbitrators to avoid a lawsuit.

High damage award? Won't happen. ASU fans inform me regularly that ASU is really right. The aribitrator's decision against them is merely a technicality because they really control SDS and can do what ever they would like despite the terms out-lined in the contract.

 

[so far away]

Originally posted by ds512az
Personnally it won't hurt me one bit. ASU should live up to the contract that they signed. Period. An unbiased arbitrator ruled in favor of the Cards. Period. Stop the underhanded media slam against the Cards. Period.

My opinion. Period.

This ain't Western Union.Period.

 

[kerouac9]

Not to mention that the Cards aren't asking for "new money" (damages, interest, legal fees, etc.). They're asking for the money they are owed, but was illegally withheld. ASU would have had to make these cuts anyway, if they'd honored their agreements, but they didn't.

This sounds like there's an internal budgeting problem at the athletic department.

Also, if you actually think that Arizona State is any more than nominally a non-profit institution, you're incredibly naive.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
Sundevilfan: I am a student at ASU, and I love ASU, almost as much as I love the Cardinals, but your argument holds no water. You make interesting points, but they are all moot, because there is only one point that matters: ASU owes the Cardinals the money. Your argument is based purely on an emotional appeal, and ASU hopes to make the Cardinals out to be the bad guy in this situation, and this is no surprise; when you can't beat them from a legal standpoint, attack them from a emotional, and so-called "moral" standpoint. This argument is getting out of control, and if you want to have any credence at this board, please come with a well thought out discussion with fact, instead of your anti-Cardinals rhetoric.

I am a student too.....so we aren't all non-ASU fans here....actually most of us ARE ASU fans.

Very good points. I am very disappointed with the petty tactics that Gene Smith has resorted too, and I have thought about not going to any ASU games anymore...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9


Also, if you actually think that Arizona State is any more than nominally a non-profit institution, you're incredibly naive.

Great point. College Athletics are all about profits! Just look at what is happening with the expansion of the ACC.

 

[Card Trader]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I am a student too.....so we aren't all non-ASU fans here....actually most of us ARE ASU fans.

I'm not an ASU student but a very big fan, especially of the football program and am excited about the upcomming year...namely Walter.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I am a student too.....so we aren't all non-ASU fans here....actually most of us ARE ASU fans.

Because of this, I think we are pretty unbiased. I have tried to stay out of this situation, because it is similar to your two best friends fighting, but at a certain point, you have to tell that one friend that he is being an idiot, and is wrong. I'll still be an ASU fan however, and I am sure you will too Krang. We'll both get drunk Saturday night, and go to the ASU game, wake up hungover on Sunday, and go to the Cardinals game. So life ain't so bad, is it?

 

[Dback Jon]

(NED)
How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

(JON)
If the Cards can use the money to better the team, then yes, I benefit.

(NED)
If you believe that the team will improve, please show me an example.

(JON)
More money makes it easier to pay more upfront cash for signing bonuses. Cash flow is one of the Card's biggest problems.

(NED)
Do you believe it is ethical for a for-profit entity to sue a not-for-profit entity simply to increase profits?

(JON)
What does profit/non-profit have to do with anything? I my industry, we have both non-profits and for-profits. You can bet that if a non-profit entity violates a contract with us, we will use every means available to get what is rightfully ours. Being a non-profit does not give you a free pass when it comes to being honest and living up to your end of a deal.

(NED)
Do you believe it is ethical to sue a public entity after the public votes to give the for-profit company a $350M stadium?

(JON)
I could care less about ASU athletics - it would not make any difference to Arizona at all. And athletics are privately funded, anyway.

(NED)
Do you believe that the Cardinals have been 'good-faith' bargainers with regard to the stadium? With their first round draft picks? With anyone?

(JON)
Of anybody in the NFL, the Bidwills probably exert more of a good-faith effort than anyone else. Part of their problems stem from the fact that they still believe everyone else (ASU, agents, etc) are always dealing in good faith.

(NED)
Please list those with whom you believe the Cardinals have bargained in good faith.

(JON)
See above.

(NED)
How will it personally hurt you should the Cards lose the suit? How will it hurt the Cards?

(JON)
By having a less competitive team on the field.

(NED)
Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

(JON)
Irrelevant to the issue. Irrelevant that the Cards are for-profit.
Sensationalist crap - do you have any support for your contention that this would happen?

Bottom line - if ASU Athletics can't uphold their end of a deal, then maybe they DON'T deserve to exist.

Tell ya what - if the Bidwills drop the suit, that would automatically make them ASU's biggest donor, athletic-wise. Rename Sun Devil Stadium to Bidwill Stadium, and call it even.

 

[JasonKGME]

I'll answer you as soon as you answer me

Give me any reason other then "moral
" that this "lawsuit" as you call it should be dropped by the Cardinals.

If you can provide me with that answer I will gladly answer in return any questions you have, until then this is simply crying over spilt milk for ASU and it's fans.

 

[Stronso]

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
A couple questions for you...

How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

NOT A LICK. HOW WOULD YOU BENEFIT IF THE ARBITER RULED FOR ASU? IT IS, HOWEVER, IRRELEVANT.

If you believe that the team will improve, please show me an example.

IRRELEVANT TO THE ASU ISSUE

Do you believe it is ethical for a for-profit entity to sue a not-for-profit entity simply to increase profits?

IT IS ETHICAL IF BOTH PARTIES ENTERED INTO A CONTRACT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL AND ONE OF THE PARTIES DID NOT LIVE UP TO THEIR AGREED RESPONSIBILITIES. IN ADDITION, THIS IS NOT TO "JUST INCREASE PROFITS" - THIS IS CALLED BREACH OF CONTRACT BY ASU AND THE CARDINALS ARE TRYING TO HAVE THE TERMS OF THEIR AGREEMENT ENFORCED.

Do you believe it is ethical to sue a public entity after the public votes to give the for-profit company a $350M stadium?

IRRELEVANT

Do you believe that the Cardinals have been 'good-faith' bargainers with regard to the stadium? With their first round draft picks? With anyone?

THE CARDINALS HAVE BEEN ACTING IN GOOD FAITH WITH ASU. SDS HAS UNDERGONE MANY IMPROVEMENTS SINCE 1988 AND THESE IMPROVEMENTS ARE DIRECTLY LINKED TO THE CARDS AND NFL. ASU IS NOT ACTING IN GOOD FAITH AS EVIDENCED BY THE BREACH OF CONTRACT.

REGARDING FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS: IRRELEVANT

Please list those with whom you believe the Cardinals have bargained in good faith.

I HAVE A LIST BUT I DOUBT THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO PERUSE IT.

How will it personally hurt you should the Cards lose the suit?

NOT A BIT.

How will it hurt the Cards?

THEY WOULD LOSE MONEY THEY WERE ENTITLED TO PER THE AGREEMENT/CONTRACT BETWEEN ASU AND THE CARDINALS.


Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

THE MISMANAGMENT OF THE ASU ATHLETIC DEPT. IS THE REASON FOR THE CUTTING OF PROGRAMS - IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS LAID OUT BY TITLE IX. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CARDINALS.

Do you believe that gutting the ASU athletic department helps you or the Cardinals?

THE CARDINALS ARE SIMPLY ASKING FOR THE MONEY DUE TO THEM UNDER THE TERMS OF A CONTRACT SIGNED BY BOTH ASU AND THE CARDS. THE FACT THAT ASU BREACHED THE CONTRACT IS THE ISSUE AND THE CARDINALS HAVE SOUGHT PRIVATELY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE AND ARIZONA STATE HAS NOT BEEN WILLING TO.

ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY HAS AN AGREEMENT WITH THE CARDINALS WHICH THEY CHOSE TO IGNORE. IF YOU HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH AN ENTITY - AND THEY CHOSE TO IGNORE THE AGREEMENT, COSTING YOU MONEY - WOULDN'T YOU TRY TO ENFORCE THE CONTRACT? THIS IS SIMPLE CONTRACT/AGREEMENT LAW. NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS.

SDF99 (aka NED)

 

[Lex]

SDF99- Let's start from the correct point. Your argument, is based on a faulty premise.

The Arizona Cardinals football club, is an entertainment enterprise. Much like other performers, they perform their craft in venues located all across America.

The Arizona Cardinals football club, agreed in 1988, to play half of their games at Sun Devil Stadium, a publicly owned facility. At the time, they signed an agreement with Arizona State University, the caretaker of Sun Devil Stadium, dealing with all sorts of issues that could come up. There have been signed agreements in force ever since.

ASU did not honor their own agreement.

The people of Maricopa County, voted to build another venue better suited for hosting large events, and for our own comfort. The Cardinals have not only agreed to lease space in this new venue for 30 years, they have agreed to help finance the structure, to the tune of 100 million dollars.

The 2008 Super Bowl, will MORE than reimberse the hotel and rental car industry for THEIR investment in this project.

The people of Maricopa county did not build a stadium for the Cardinals, we built it for ourselves...and we know a good investment when we see one. Here's hoping that ASU will get the chance to win a national championship in our new venue, in the Fiesta Bowl!

 

[so far away]

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
A couple questions for you...

How will you personally benefit if the Cards win the lawsuit and a high damage award?

If you believe that the team will improve, please show me an example.

Do you believe it is ethical for a for-profit entity to sue a not-for-profit entity simply to increase profits?

Do you believe it is ethical to sue a public entity after the public votes to give the for-profit company a $350M stadium?

Do you believe that the Cardinals have been 'good-faith' bargainers with regard to the stadium? With their first round draft picks? With anyone?

Please list those with whom you believe the Cardinals have bargained in good faith.

How will it personally hurt you should the Cards lose the suit? How will it hurt the Cards?

Do you believe that profits for a for-profit entertainment company should come at the expense of scholar athletes and their coaches? Should Bidwills bottom line be increased by cutting scholarships for swimmers, divers, soccer players, wrestlers, gymnasts, track and field competitors, and the firing of their coaches and support staff?

Do you believe that gutting the ASU athletic department helps you or the Cardinals?

SDF99 (aka NED)

Do you go by "Gambo" by chance?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

WHAT I THINK

I think that is stuff for sleazy business men to fight out. This matter has nothing to do with the Cardinals players or fans.

 

[sundevilfan99]

Re: Re: Questions for Cards fans

Originally posted by so far away
Do you go by "Gambo" by chance?

No, Gambo is an ***** newyorker...

I'm in Boston.

NED

 

[Dback Jon]

Re: Re: Re: Questions for Cards fans

Originally posted by sundevilfan99
No, Gambo is an ***** newyorker...

I'm in Boston.

NED

Boston/New York - all the same