Rivers / Big Ben / or Fitz in 2004

[GimmedaBall]

On an earlier thread, the discussion was on the question of Fitz’s retirement. While looking back at his career, I found a recent D Urban column on how Fitz came to us with the #3 pick in the 2004 draft.

https://www.azcardinals.com/news/lo...ate-poole-oral-history-cardinals-vikings-2003

If you look at that draft, several QBs with possible HOF careers were in the mix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NFL_Draft

That Viking last-second win cost us the #1 pick—Eli Manning ended up going to San Diego—then refusing to play there—and on to NY with San Diego getting Rivers. At #3, Denny Green picked Fitz. Green had a history with Fitz and trusted his instincts that Fitz was an exceptional player. At the time, it was a puzzling pick—we already had Boldin as a #1 WR. I recall plenty of debate that we should have gone with a QB while moving on from Josh McCown.

So—assume Eli Manning is off the board. That still leaves Rivers and Big Ben (and Losman) in the first round.

Would the Cards have been better off to go with either Rivers or Big Ben as the value pick over Fitz????

 

[Proximo]

Yes probably.

Quarterback is by far the most valuable position, and even though Larry has been arguably the second best receiver of all time, his impact is still less than either of those QB's. With that said, I still don't think we would have won a superbowl with either of those guys.

 

[DVontel]

Ben? Probably.

Rivers? Hell no.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Ben? Probably.

Rivers? Hell no.

The raw numbers are pretty close. BB lost a few games due to injury while Rivers has been able to run out for 16 games. Both guys with some gunslinger in their game.
I think BB had the better D. Both had some great offensive players surrounding them.

Without looking at the stats, I would have guessed Rivers to have more INTs but they compare given BB lost a season+ due to injury.

Big Ben’s stats:
https://www.nfl.com/players/ben-roethlisberger/stats/career
Comp % 64.47
Yards 58,479
Average 7.7
TD 381
INT 195

Philip Rivers stats:
https://www.nfl.com/players/philip-rivers/stats/career
Comp % 64.77
Yards 61,358
Average 7.5
TD 407
INT 205

Of course, in the head-to-head in the SB, Big Ben came out the winner---even as Fitz put on a show to get us into the SB. If our D held up, the Warner-to-Fitz TD would have been the defining moment of the game and part of SB history.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I wanted Ben. Badly.

But am so happy with Denny's choice!

 

[Finito]

Fitz is great but we already had a legit borderline hall of famer at WR in Boldin.

I draft Big Ben everyday over Fitz. I’ll take the hall of fame QB over the hall of fame WR.

 

[Stout]

Big Ben was the pick I wanted. In retrospect, yes, he would have been the better pick. I am, however, in no way upset with the pick we made

 

[mjb21aztd]

Big ben but cards luck he would have got hurt bad here cause of cards oline

But big ben with a prime boldin would have been insane!!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

In retrospect includes SB wins for Big Ben then the choice is obvious.. and this is coming from me... Fitz is my favorite athlete of all time.

 

[AZ Native]

Big ben but cards luck he would have got hurt bad here cause of cards oline

But big ben with a prime boldin would have been insane!!

As much as I love Fitz, I agree with this. Boldin would have stayed and he and Ben would have been a force to contend with for many years.

 

[BigRedRage]

Ben wouldn't have the same career at all in arizona imo

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ben wouldn't have the same career at all in arizona imo

He's a good QB that won SBs with great defenses. Not sure he would have ever had what he needed to win here.

 

[BigRedRage]

He's a good QB that won SBs with great defenses. Not sure he would have ever had what he needed to win here.

his team is an always contender that has had a very similar coaching structure his entire tenure and he has two super bowls. With us he could very well have zero. We have only had two real chances to even get there and both times had a quality QB at the time. Most of the rest of the time we were a crap team.

id rather have warner in our super bowl year that he beat us. The other time was his second season and he was on an amazing team.

 

[Russ Smith]

I distinctly remember arguing we should take Roy Williams over Fitz because he was faster and a better athlete. Had a good start to his career but never got better. Boy was I wrong.

The guy I really wanted was the late Sean Taylor who was a HOF talent himself but got killed at a young age.

I think we made the right choice, so glad the Raiders took Robert Gallery

 

[BurqueCardFan]

He's a good QB that won SBs with great defenses. Not sure he would have ever had what he needed to win here.

I agree with this. Big Ben is good but his "greatness" is more attributed to the great defenses and team consistency he has had over the years.
One could argue both his SB wins are marred in controversy. The Superbowl they "beat" Seattle, they won in spite of Ben not because of him. He was horrible. Had a QB rating below 30 and the refs in that SB basically gave the game to Pitt. Then in 2008, you know how that game ended. Still questionable if Holmes had two feet down.
Not to mention Ben's off the field issues. You can keep him. I will take Fitz

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Hard pass on the rapist no matter how good of a QB he is.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He's a good QB that won SBs with great defenses. Not sure he would have ever had what he needed to win here.

To piggyback on my own post. We did have some good defenses (even great defenses at times) throughout the last 10 years that may have been enough for Ben to lead to a SB. That is assuming that we didn't ruin him early in his career.

 

[TJ]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but we went into that season with Josh McCown as our QB with Q and Bryant Johnson (a relatively unknown, but promising WR at the time) as our two top receivers. Drafting three receivers in the first two rounds in two consecutive drafts is folly.

Of the three, Fitz would be my third choice. Doesnt mean I love him less, but franchise QB > WR, especially if you'd already invested a lot of capital into the position

 

[GimmedaBall]

As of Post #18 by TJ--Ben (7) Fitz (2) Warner (1) Sean Taylor (1), Not Ben (2), one of the QBs over Fitz (1).

Got a lot of football savvy geeks on the forum. A franchise HOF QB has more value than a face-of-the franchise HOF WR. (And Fitz is my favorite all-time Card).

No takers for Rivers, got votes for players who were not part of the poll, no suggestion that if we had the #1 pick that we should take Eli Manning. Manning played in NY and will most likely get into the HOF (alongside Namath) because of the media coverage and success in the SB/ not because of his career stats.

Robert Gallery was off the board at #2. We dodged a bullet there---he had a perfect 9.0 grade Draft Prospect Rating and was given the label of 'best Offensive Line prospect in years.' Problem with all the hype was that he was a swinging gate at both LT and RT. Got moved to LG and had a serviceable career.

Denny Green aced that 2004 draft. Has to rank as one of the best for the Cards. We got (#3): Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pittsburgh Round 2 (#33): Karlos Dansby, OLB, Auburn Round 3 (#64): Darnell Dockett, DT, Florida State Round 4 (#100): Alex Stepanovich, C, Ohio State Round 5 (#135): Antonio Smith, DE, Oklahoma State Round 6 (#167): Nick Leckey, C, Kansas State Round 7 (#246): John Navarre, QB, Michigan

Fitz-Dansby-Dockett were part of the core group Green left Whiz. Stepanovich (C) looked like a keeper and started all 16 games at C and had mention for 'Rookie of the Year' nominations. Got injured and hung around for 5 years. Antonio Smith had a 16-year career in the NFL, 5 with the Cards. Probably best known for his years with Houston. Nick Lecky played for 6 years, 3 with Cards. We even got value out of John Navarre as reserve QB for 3 years.

Here's a better link to Cards 2004 draft---looks like the one I previously posted is getting sidetracked for an ad:

https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/arizona-cardinals/draft/2004

 

[WisconsinCard]

Deny was on record saying even with the first pick he would have taken Larry. So there's that.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ben would’ve never survived Old Town.

 

[Finito]

To piggyback on my own post. We did have some good defenses (even great defenses at times) throughout the last 10 years that may have been enough for Ben to lead to a SB. That is assuming that we didn't ruin him early in his career.

people really forget we had some amazing defenses back then.

 

[Vacard]

We seem to have this thread every year

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

people really forget we had some amazing defenses back then.

Most of our wins prior to BA were when the defense was carrying us. Those Horton years were damn good and then a couple rock solid years with Bowles.

TBF we had a lot of talent on defense back then. It will take us a while to build that kind of talent again.

 

[GimmedaBall]

We seem to have this thread every year

What's wrong with that?
You don't have to participate.
You can start a thread of your own. Be sure it has never been mentioned before.
People can have a change of opinion.
There's really not much for long-term fans that has not already been discussed. You can make your comment about any topic that looks back in Card's history. Do we only get one time to bring up a topic? Are we supposed to remember every single mention of a topic so as to not bring it up again?

What is really old is the comment "We seen to have this thread every year."