Rod Graves and Michael Bidwill

[Stout]

So, I think this topic deserves its own thread. Michael Bidwill has universally been lauded for turning this franchise around and modernizing their front office practices. Rod Graves has universally been blasted as having poor negotiating skills and giving out poor contracts.

Now, who is really to blame in how negotiating and contracts are handled? Does Bidwill deserve all of the credit and none of the blame? Does Graves deserve all of the blame, or is he simply a yes man that is being told what to do at every turn by Bidwill? Is Bidwill acting far too much on his own, and ruining things by not allowing a strong football GM make decisions around here?

 

[Cheesebeef]

it's on Mikey. it's not Graves fault he continues to be rewarded for doing a mediocre at best job.

 

[WildBB]

So, I think this topic deserves its own thread. Michael Bidwill has universally been lauded for turning this franchise around and modernizing their front office practices. Rod Graves has universally been blasted as having poor negotiating skills and giving out poor contracts.

Now, who is really to blame in how negotiating and contracts are handled? Does Bidwill deserve all of the credit and none of the blame? Does Graves deserve all of the blame, or is he simply a yes man that is being told what to do at every turn by Bidwill? Is Bidwill acting far too much on his own, and ruining things by not allowing a strong football GM make decisions around here?

It's a family business. Everything revolves around that.

I think that THIS YEAR they are a little hamstrung by some of the signings of last season (Fitz), and they are working some of that out. Cutting ties w/ Stuckey, reworking Kolb and Bradley's deals. They still would like to make a deal with CC. But they can be more creative with their contracts. Maybe they need to be. But that can bite you down the road some, like the Steelers now. But they certainly have the success to show for it (creative contracts).

As far as FA goes:
There is just so much value on the market. Most of it (value) is really on your own team. The players know the system, the coaches know what they're getting for the most part. You really have to overspend to get top (upgraded) talent, and it really has proven that it's not that much of an upgrade long term, for most teams.

Anybody remember when top FA's Clyde Simmons and Seth Joyner signed here? Many teams have had this sort of result - BAD. Yor getting some of these guys and they get top $$, and they have nothing more to prove. There have been some successes (Warner and Berry), but overall it's really a 50/50 proposition. Mostly it's just hitting on that one integral player at the right time to add to an already semi/fully successful group of players and coaches.

 

[Cardiac]

it's on Mikey. it's not Graves fault he continues to be rewarded for doing a mediocre at best job.

I pretty much agree with this.

Joeshmo posted somewhere that Sr is totally out of the picture. I value and trust Joe's opinion but I have trouble believing Sr doesn't have any say so or doesn't meddle with some things.

There is plenty of evidence that Mike is calling the shots now, at least for the most part. He will make mistakes and some of them will be typical rookie mistakes. I'm not confident that Graves has the skills or fortitude to minimize these mistakes.

Thing is that there are plenty of owners who have a hands on approach and make a ton of mistakes as well. So Graves isn't in an exclusive club in which he doesn't have the power to over rule his employer.

I also believe Whiz has a very strong voice and has to get some blame for any mistakes.

 

[Duckjake]

Anybody remember when top FA's Clyde Simmons and Seth Joyner signed here? Many teams have had this sort of result - BAD. Yor getting some of these guys and they get top $$, and they have nothing more to prove. There have been some successes (Warner and Berry), but overall it's really a 50/50 proposition. Mostly it's just hitting on that one integral player at the right time to add to an already semi/fully successful group of players and coaches.

Those two helped the Cards have the highest ranked Defense, #4, since 1956. Unfortunately the Bidwills brought an idiot in with them, Buddy Ryan.

 

[joeshmo]

Joeshmo posted somewhere that Sr is totally out of the picture. I value and trust Joe's opinion but I have trouble believing Sr doesn't have any say so or doesn't meddle with some things.

Its not my opinion its Somers, Urban, and Jurecki's opinion.

 

[Buckybird]

It's a family business. Everything revolves around that.
I think that THIS YEAR they are a little hamstrung by some of the signings of last season (Fitz), and they are working some of that out. Cutting ties w/ Stuckey, reworking Kolb and Bradley's deals. They still would like to make a deal with CC. But they can be more creative with their contracts. Maybe they need to be. But that can bite you down the road some, like the Steelers now. But they certainly have the success to show for it (creative contracts).

As far as FA goes:
There is just so much value on the market. Most of it (value) is really on your own team. The players know the system, the coaches know what they're getting for the most part. You really have to overspend to get top (upgraded) talent, and it really has proven that it's not that much of an upgrade long term, for most teams.

Anybody remember when top FA's Clyde Simmons and Seth Joyner signed here? Many teams have had this sort of result - BAD. Yor getting some of these guys and they get top $$, and they have nothing more to prove. There have been some successes (Warner and Berry), but overall it's really a 50/50 proposition. Mostly it's just hitting on that one integral player at the right time to add to an already semi/fully successful group of players and coaches.

I agree 100% The bolded part will never change & will probably always limit the Cards potential to be great team for any stretch of time.

I pretty much agree with this.

Joeshmo posted somewhere that Sr is totally out of the picture. I value and trust Joe's opinion but I have trouble believing Sr doesn't have any say so or doesn't meddle with some things.

There is plenty of evidence that Mike is calling the shots now, at least for the most part. He will make mistakes and some of them will be typical rookie mistakes. I'm not confident that Graves has the skills or fortitude to minimize these mistakes.

Thing is that there are plenty of owners who have a hands on approach and make a ton of mistakes as well. So Graves isn't in an exclusive club in which he doesn't have the power to over rule his employer.

I also believe Whiz has a very strong voice and has to get some blame for any mistakes.

Yeah, to think Bowtie just sits around eating ice cream is pretty naive

Those two helped the Cards have the highest ranked Defense, #4, since 1956. Unfortunately the Bidwills brought an idiot in with them, Buddy Ryan.

Cruddy Ball!!!

 

[football karma]

Bill Sr is out of the picture 100% due to health issues.

Its a family business, and one that is run conservatively from a financial point of view.

They have always taken the point of view on contracts to front load them (generally speaking) relative to the cap whenever possible. This is contrast to large portions of the league that back loads contracts. About the only time contracts get back loaded is on those top 10 rookie deals where slotting basically forces them to do it.

Graves basically operates within the boundaries given to him . He really doesn't challenge boundaries either -- its why he has been around so long.

The boundaries also reflect fiscal reality for the team. They are in much better shape today than pre- UoP, but still they are a below average revenue team whose owner is not in position to run regular losses.

The recent economic situation in Phoenix metro hasnt helped. While the stadium "sells out" -- that doesnt count Club seating and Skybox sales. Those areas are critical to the team because the team keeps that revenue 100% ( i.e. regular seat sale revenue is split 60% team / 40% league). I know most of the east side Club section has been empty the last two years, and a good portion of the skyboxes are empty. That is worth probably $7 to $10mm per year to the team that they had when UoP opened -- but didn't renew in 2009 and 2010.

 

[kingbob131]

Hey Guys,

I am Bob Sullivan and I have a couple interviews I did with Arizona athletes, Ralph Brown and Taylor Griffin, that you can share in Forums if you are interested. I can't post the links, but you can if you want to. Just let me know.

Bob Sullivan

Bob Sullivan Show

 

[WildBB]

Those two helped the Cards have the highest ranked Defense, #4, since 1956. Unfortunately the Bidwills brought an idiot in with them, Buddy Ryan.

But they quickly deteriorated - longer term.

 

[Duckjake]

But they quickly deteriorated - longer term.

Well nobody expected them to play for 10 years in Arizona. They did what they were supposed to do. It wasn't their fault Bizarro Ryan hated anything and everything that was associated with offense.

 

[CardLogic]

Hey Guys,

I am Bob Sullivan and I have a couple interviews I did with Arizona athletes, Ralph Brown and Taylor Griffin, that you can share in Forums if you are interested. I can't post the links, but you can if you want to. Just let me know.

Bob Sullivan

Bob Sullivan Show

Who?

 

[Cardiac]

Its not my opinion its Somers, Urban, and Jurecki's opinion.

Thanks for the clarification. So what is your opinion?

 

[WildBB]

Well nobody expected them to play for 10 years in Arizona. They did what they were supposed to do. It wasn't their fault Bizarro Ryan hated anything and everything that was associated with offense.

Bizarro was a catastrophe for sure.

 

[THESMEL]

Now Now

I agree with the Buddy Hiring he had 10+ wins and the playoffs in 4 previous years IN THE same division. He wanted more personell control he got it, abused it and lost it, but He earned his shot! He lost the team by playing favorites on defense. I remember Larry Centers pounding out yardage in desperation - as Buddy and crew walked off the field before time expired.

I disagree more with firing Denny with the SB being played in AZ that year, I think He was a better chance with talent he had accumulated to earn a home SB. Denny did not lose the team, He lost the front office when He fired the OC and had to take him back as an advisor, Graves did not step in and lead , he layed down and bled for this team. to come back from MNM was heart wretching but we had a good last few games.

Rod Graves seems worried more about Rod Graves, Why He didn't get fired with Denny, look at their drafts? Free agents? Denny blows Rod Graves away as a personell man. I think Michael Bidwill was fighting the urge to do something stupid to step out of the old mans shadow, Whisenhunt was a good move and a good hire, but Graves should have went and Denny should have stayed in my book.

Not that Michael can admit that, Lil Billy Bidwill has forgot more about football than his son has ever seen. Not Championship football, but surviving as a traveling team for over a century as a team and a league. It was not always a sure thingy like it is today, a great investment, Owners and investor ate iron and spit bullets back in the day, they lost fortunes and writhered away in painfull agony. Jerry Jones should be nervous, with his 1 billion stadium, His team sucks and he feels entitled to something-that Tex and Tom earned.

Those two helped the Cards have the highest ranked Defense, #4, since 1956. Unfortunately the Bidwills brought an idiot in with them, Buddy Ryan.

 

[40yearfan]

Well nobody expected them to play for 10 years in Arizona. They did what they were supposed to do. It wasn't their fault Bizarro Ryan hated anything and everything that was associated with offense.

Yeah, I remember when they were playing here. I used to hope for the offense to go 3 and out because it was much more exciting to watch the defense in action.

Like you say Dj. A Cardinal defense that was actually good probably for the first time in their history. Fun to watch.