Should Irvin be in the Hall?

[moklerman]

I'm pretty disgusted by his induction into the Hall of Fame but I didn't watch a lot of Dallas games back in the day. Since the Card's were playing the 'Boys twice a year during Irvin's era I was wondering if some of you might have some insight into why this guy was voted in. I assume that any self-respecting Card's fan hates him with a passion but that being said, can any of you make a case for why this guy should be in Canton for me? I did a little digging for a thread on another site that I'm going to repost just to expand upon my feelings on the subject-

The fact that Irvin is in means that I don't really care if Bruce makes it in or not because the system is apparently flawed. Irvin was a good wr but HOF? Longevity and character should factor in to the voting process in my opinion and at this point, the sanctity of the Hall itself is compromised.

Monk is a great example of why the HOF is quickly becoming like the Pro Bowl as far as I'm concerned. The worst part is, I'll NEVER hear the end of it if I'm to watch a pregame show ever again.

Lance Alworth 1962-1972
Raymond Berry 1955-1967
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978
Tom Fears 1948-1956
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956
Michael Irvin 1988-1999
Charlie Joiner 1969-1986
Steve Largent 1976-1989
Dante Lavelli 1946-1956
James Lofton 1978-1993
Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973
Tommy McDonald 1957-1968
Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968
Pete Pihos 1947-1955
John Stallworth 1974-1987
Lynn Swann 1974-1982
Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977
Paul Warfield 1964-1977

There are (now) 18 WR's in the Hall of Fame(in the modern era 1948+). Can someone honestly tell me that Irvin should be on such a short list of WR's over the last 60 years? I think Jerry Jones is throwing his weight around on this one.

Just to add to my angst on the subject, Irvin is SECOND on the Cowboys all-time WR's list behind Bob Hayes for career TD's. He's not even the top guy in Cowboys history! Why isn't Hayes in the HOF? I was reading an article about Irvin's induction and the writer stated that more than his numbers, Irvin was considered the heart and soul of those great Cowboys teams. Maybe it's just me, but this seems like a really forced choice.

In 12 years, Irvin made the Pro Bowl 5 times which isn't bad. HOF? In those 12 years he was in the top 10* in receptions 4 times, receiving yards 6 times, receiving td's 5 times. All time, he's 20th in receiving yards and 37(!) in receiving td's. In 16 career playoff games, he has 8 td's. His one big postseason game (12 receptions, 192 yards, 2 td's) the Cowboys LOST 28-38 to the *****. How does any of this explain how he's a HOF'er? I could make a stronger case for Henry Ellard than I could Michael Irvin.

*EDIT-When I put top 10, I forgot to mention that it was usually in the 5-10 range of the top 10 WR's of any particular year. He led the league once in receiving yards, mainly because he was thrown to the 2nd most that year. In '91 & '92 you could call Irvin dominant. The rest of his career there were always plenty of guys far surpassing what he was doing on the field. Hell, Sterling Sharpe was a lot more dominant WR than Irvin for a longer period of time. At least when SS was healthy, it was obvious how dominant he was. He was clearly outperforming Irvin, which isn't saying much, but also Rice in his prime.

Man, the more I look at this, the more it stinks. I mentioned that Irvin is tied for 37th all-time in receiving td's. I didn't realize it was Sterling Sharpe that he was tied with! So, I looked up Sharpe's numbers and in 7 years(before he had to retire due to injury) he put up as many td's(65) that it took Irvin 12 years to do and he put up as many Pro Bowl's (5) as well. It's unfortunate for Sharpe that his best days were a year or two before the Packers' two Super Bowls. My point is, Sharpe was clearly a dominant WR of that era. When you look at where he was among his contemporaries, he was at the top of the list in most categories. When you look at Irvin, he usually wasn't. He'd have around 1,000 yards receiving and maybe be in the top 10 in TD's but nothing that guy's like Yancy Thigpen and Herman Moore weren't duplicating or exceeding. You can't really look at the Super Bowl's either. Versus Buffalo, he had his best Super Bowl (6, 114 & 2) but Dallas steamrolled the Bills 52-17 so it's hard for me to think that it was because of Irvin. The next time vs. Buffalo, Irvin was along for the ride (5, 66 & 0). Versus Pittsburgh, more of the same (5, 75 & 0). Essentially, he didn't do anything that stands out any more than what a ton of other WR's have done in the postseason.

So, he was a pretty good WR that happened to be on a dominant team that won three Super Bowls. When I ask: Should Emmitt Smith be in the HOF? Yes is the "obvious" answer. You don't have to think about it. He's a HOF'er. The same question about Aikman? You have to think a little more but I think his induction can be justified. Irvin? I don't even know how these guys are rationalizing this choice.

Sorry to plagerize myself but I think there are some good points why Irving should NOT be in the Hall and wanted to present them for consideration. I just can't see the argument for him getting in. Only in an objective sense, mind you. I think Jerry Jones is the reason.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Nope...

 

[ajcardfan]

No, he shouldn't be in ahead of Art Monk. But, I can't take the HOF seriously anymore. Electing Dan Hampton was probably the final straw for me.

BTW, Aeneas Williams routinely shut down Irvin. Including the playoff win over Dallas in which he got 2 INTs. He also had 55 career INTs and scored TWELVE defensive TDs. The large majority of that was while he was on the Cards who were unable to get even an average corner across from him most of the time limiting his opportunities for big plays. Troy Aikman called him the "best corner we face every year".

So, I fully expect Williams to struggle to get into the HOF.

 

[1usctrojan]

Nope...

Hi 82....followed you here...missed your intelligent, edgy, straight-up posts on the Cardinals MB, this is a great site and I hope to continue reading and learning from your posts here! Linda

lkratavil49 on the other board - 1usctrojan as you can imagine, is my user name on almost every place else I need to log into.

 

[Pariah]

Monk played for a long time--that's why his stats are up there. He was a very good WR that played for a long time, he was never, IMO, particularly "great."

Irvin, for all of his faults as a person, was dominant. He was a great WR in his day.

Irvin belongs in the HOF. Monk is borderline.

JMHO.

 

[moklerman]

BTW, Aeneas Williams routinely shut down Irvin.

Thanks for the insight, it brings up another example of a guy who can be justified or at least rationalized(Williams) in terms of being elected. AW was a great player on subpar teams. He was even an integral part of his team making it to a Super Bowl in 2001 not to mention all of the individual awards he won. With a defensive back you don't have the measurables so his induction may be more contested but with Irvin, there are very black & white numbers to compare him against his contemporaries and he still got in.

 

[Pariah]

Hi 82....followed you here...missed your intelligent, edgy, straight-up posts on the Cardinals MB, this is a great site and I hope to continue reading and learning from your posts here! Linda

You must have the wrong guy.

 

[ajcardfan]

Monk played for a long time--that's why his stats are up there. He was a very good WR that played for a long time, he was never, IMO, particularly "great."

Irvin, for all of his faults as a person, was dominant. He was a great WR in his day.

Irvin belongs in the HOF. Monk is borderline.

JMHO.

This argument would carry a lot more weight if the HOF hadn't put in so many
good, not great, players over the last decade. JMHO.

 

[moklerman]

Irvin, for all of his faults as a person, was dominant.

Would you please elaborate on why you believe this? I think Irvin was good but not dominant. I think most of his numbers were accumulated because he benefitted from such a well-rounded offense. If Emmitt wasn't churning out the yards and td's, then Aikman was spreading the ball around to guys like Novachek and Harper. A defense couldn't double any one receiver because Aikman would gladly go to the guy with single coverage. That's the thing, if a defense wanted to shut down Irvin I don't think it was too much of an issue to do so.

 

[Gee!]

Hi 82....followed you here...missed your intelligent, edgy, straight-up posts on the Cardinals MB, this is a great site and I hope to continue reading and learning from your posts here! Linda

lkratavil49 on the other board - 1usctrojan as you can imagine, is my user name on almost every place else I need to log into.

Go away!

this board will now be infected with unforgiving matt leinart praise

 

[Gee!]

I think Irvin should be in the HOF.. Dude would go across the middle all the time when most were and still are afraid to (Boldin excluded).. And he made the catches.. This is most likely why his career was cut short as well..

 

[Pariah]

This argument would carry a lot more weight if the HOF hadn't put in so many
good, not great, players over the last decade. JMHO.

I'm not sure I understand your position.

1. You critsize the Hall for admitting average players, then
2. Say that Monk should be in before Irvin based on his longevity rather than his talent/greatness.

Those things seem to me to be in conflict. If the Hall has let in average players in the past, that should punish the truly great players because the non-greats that have been waiting longer need to get in first? uh-uh, I don't buy it. Just because they may have made mistakes in the past doesn't mean they need to keep making them.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Hi 82....followed you here...missed your intelligent, edgy, straight-up posts on the Cardinals MB, this is a great site and I hope to continue reading and learning from your posts here! Linda

lkratavil49 on the other board - 1usctrojan as you can imagine, is my user name on almost every place else I need to log into.

Hey there Linda! Glad to see you made the shift. I'm pretty certain you'll find the content and commentary much more to your liking here versus azcards.com.
Enjoy!

82

 

[Gee!]

I'm not sure I understand your position.

1. You critsize the Hall for admitting average players, then
2. Say that Monk should be in before Irvin based on his longevity rather than his talent/greatness.

Those things seem to me to be in conflict. If the Hall has let in average players in the past, that should punish the truly great players because the non-greats that have been waiting longer need to get in first? uh-uh, I don't buy it. Just because they may have made mistakes in the past doesn't mean they need to keep making them.

So your against Don Majikowski being put in the HOF? blasphmey!

 

[Pariah]

Would you please elaborate on why you believe this? ... if a defense wanted to shut down Irvin I don't think it was too much of an issue to do so.

Then you'd be wrong. Irvin was a lot like TO (in more ways than one). He wasn't the fastest guy on the field, but he was a hard worker and was generally stronger than the guys he went up against--only Irvin had better hands and ran better routes than TO.

Irvin was a big part of the Cowboys being able to have that well-rounded offense. He would take the double so Harper and Novecek could make plays and Emmitt could run behind the giant, gaping, enormous holes (did i mention that Emmitt's holes were HUGE?).

Irvin beat doubles a lot. Was he ever shut down? sure he was. But more often than not, he dominated.

Monk on the other hand, had pretty good numbers year-in and year-out....for a very, very long time. Did he ever lead the league in anything? Was he ever the best WR in the league in any of the years he played? (serious question...I don't think he did, but he might of...)

I think the reason people are repulsed that the idea of Irvin getting into the HoF before Monk is because they're opposite people. Irvin is brash, offensive and a jerk. Monk is quiet, classy and reserved. But on the football field, Irvin is a better WR...hands down.

 

[Gee!]

Irvin is brash, offensive and a jerk. Monk is quiet, classy and reserved. But on the football field, Irvin is a better WR...hands down.

And I honestly believe the voting committee denied Irvin induction last year to send a message to him..

 

[Skkorpion]

Hi 82....followed you here...missed your intelligent, edgy, straight-up posts on the Cardinals MB, this is a great site and I hope to continue reading and learning from your posts here! Linda

lkratavil49 on the other board - 1usctrojan as you can imagine, is my user name on almost every place else I need to log into.

Welcome, but if your school is USC, I hate you already.

 

[1usctrojan]

Welcome, but if your school is USC, I hate you already.

Sorry....went to USC, we're the biggest homers on the west coast...but, I've always been very nice and polite to ASU and UofA fans....no use being a jerk.

 

[Codeofhammurabi]

No, he shouldn't be in ahead of Art Monk. But, I can't take the HOF seriously anymore. Electing Dan Hampton was probably the final straw for me.

BTW, Aeneas Williams routinely shut down Irvin. Including the playoff win over Dallas in which he got 2 INTs. He also had 55 career INTs and scored TWELVE defensive TDs. The large majority of that was while he was on the Cards who were unable to get even an average corner across from him most of the time limiting his opportunities for big plays. Troy Aikman called him the "best corner we face every year".

So, I fully expect Williams to struggle to get into the HOF.

What year is Williams eligible?

 

[Lorenzo]

you have to be kidding me? Who posted that long page about why irvin shouldn't be in? Cardinals fans should remember that 1992 visit to texas stadium. Maybe Irvin running through the cardinals secondary like butter on the second play of the game will refresh your memory. Irvin was the leader on those cowboys teams. I would equate him to ray lewis. It's fairly simple. Aikman, Irvin, Emmitt........3 superbowls in 4 years. The closest team in NFL history to winning 4 staight. Unlike the N.E. patriots who missed the playoffs in their non SB year(as they also won 3 of 4), the cowboys fell 10pts short against a very good 49ers team in the NFC championship. Oh by the way irvin had a field day on Deon Sanders that day. Irvin constantly beat double teams on third down conversions. He had multiple TD's in playoff games. He set an NFL record for 11 straight 100yd games in the 1995 season. The only question i would raise is why both he and bullet bob hayes previously made the final 6 on the ballots and didn't recieve 80% of the vote?

 

[Pariah]

Hey, lorenzo with the benzo--you're not helping the cause.

 

[Lorenzo]

Hey, lorenzo with the benzo--you're not helping the cause.

I'm very sorry jason. I owe you an apology for that one. Thank you for making fun of my name.
How about the fact that irvin is already in. So there is really no debate. I'm just trying to state reasons why people voted him in.

 

[Pariah]

I'm just trying to state reasons why people voted him in.

Yeah, but you were doing it by calling cards fans out with your first post. You're not winning anyone over with that.

I'm just say'n...

 

[Lorenzo]

Yeah, but you were doing it by calling cards fans out with your first post. You're not winning anyone over with that.

I'm just say'n...

I apologize for that. I would think that anyone who played in the NFC east would remember the impact that irvin had on the cowboys. I understand that irvin was contreversial and had a lot of enemies amongst the fans....even dallas fans. But there is no question of what he did on the field for those superbowl teams. I also remember that williams was probably the toughest cover for irvin because he got physical with him.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

I think Irvin should be in the HOF.. Dude would go across the middle all the time when most were and still are afraid to (Boldin excluded).. And he made the catches.. This is most likely why his career was cut short as well..

Yeah Irvin definitely deserves to be in the hall, even with all my Cowboy hate I can say that for the reasons mentioned above