Silver Lining: Tyler Wilson is going to have some W-E-A-P-O-N-S

[Krangodnzr]

Have to agree. In the Steve Keim thread I talked about how few players we have left from the 2005-2008 drafts. Hiring another coach just starts that carousel of players all over again. And that has been one of if not the biggest problem the Cards have had for the last 35 years. A different head coach every 3.5 years.

I wish this forum had a "Like" option.

Definitely true Jake. I've moved more towards NOT going through drastic overhauls, and instead moving towards gradual upgrades.

Despite what some say on this board, Levi Brown, Daryn Colledge, and Sendlein are starting NFL players. What we need is another guard, improved right tackle play, and someone to push Levi Brown into being a good swing OT backup in the future.

 

[az1965]

Didnt realize Chad Grimm was a member of the board.


These guys have given up 41 sacks in 9 games, but they are a good group. Coach em up. Theyll be alright.

LOL!!

Yeah, pretty good group... the worst OL in the league. Both guards are awful. Massie has not shown anything. Potter has shown more promise in his first game so we will see. Brown coming back will help bringing the LT position to mediocrity.

 

[DoTheDew]

The Bills have to have a worse record than us to get ahead of us, because they beat us head-to-head, and they'll likely have an easier schedule.

Since when does beating us head to head mean anything for draft position? Did they changed it this year? it's always been only SoS.

 

[Cardiac]

I agree with the K9 premise in that the Oline will be improved next year.

It's been a long thread with a lot of quality posts so I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due.

Draft a LT in the first 3 rounds this year. Maybe Massie improves and maybe Potter is going to build on his solid start and maybe Levi stays healthy and maybe......

I'm higher on Levi than most but I don't want to put all my eggs in that injured basket.

Also draft an OG in the top 4 rounds.

Add an OLB and of course our franchise QB in rd 1.

I'll all for BPA so make trades and move around if need be but the Oline must be addressed if for no other reason then to have true quality bench strength and a sliver of hope for the future.

Also agree that RB will need to be addressed.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree with the K9 premise in that the Oline will be improved next year.

It's been a long thread with a lot of quality posts so I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due.

Draft a LT in the first 3 rounds this year. Maybe Massie improves and maybe Potter is going to build on his solid start and maybe Levi stays healthy and maybe......

I'm higher on Levi than most but I don't want to put all my eggs in that injured basket.

Also draft an OG in the top 4 rounds.

Add an OLB and of course our franchise QB in rd 1.

I'll all for BPA so make trades and move around if need be but the Oline must be addressed if for no other reason then to have true quality bench strength and a sliver of hope for the future.

Also agree that RB will need to be addressed.

I don't think we can make this recommendation until the end of the year. I'm comfortable preparing to replace Colledge and Snyder right now, because they've shown over the last two seasons to top out at maybe-average-if-you-squint. They are going to have to be replaced, and I'd rather replace them with a cheap rookie than (another) expensive free agent their old team didn't want.

I'm not comfortable saying this about the tackles, though. Only because I don't know what the tackles are after 9 games for Massie (where he's had good moments) and three quarters for Potter. If it looks like all three of them can be serviceable starters (and Massie and Potter are going to have upside heading into their second years), then I don't fell a push to add a 4th tackle (Levi's definitely going to be here next year) who may not make the team.

 

[WildBB]

I don't think we can make this recommendation until the end of the year. I'm comfortable preparing to replace Colledge and Snyder right now, because they've shown over the last two seasons to top out at maybe-average-if-you-squint. They are going to have to be replaced, and I'd rather replace them with a cheap rookie than (another) expensive free agent their old team didn't want.

I'm not comfortable saying this about the tackles, though. Only because I don't know what the tackles are after 9 games for Massie (where he's had good moments) and three quarters for Potter. If it looks like all three of them can be serviceable starters (and Massie and Potter are going to have upside heading into their second years), then I don't fell a push to add a 4th tackle (Levi's definitely going to be here next year) who may not make the team.

Good and fair analysis. This team really needs a top flight rookie OG, but there will also be a really good 1st round OT where we are going to pick imo, esp. if the juniors opt into the draft. After the last few years, I'd be hard pressed to pass on one of them regardless of what the rookie OT's do from here on out. Which my guess is UP and DOWN.

 

[Cardiac]

I don't think we can make this recommendation until the end of the year. I'm comfortable preparing to replace Colledge and Snyder right now, because they've shown over the last two seasons to top out at maybe-average-if-you-squint. They are going to have to be replaced, and I'd rather replace them with a cheap rookie than (another) expensive free agent their old team didn't want.

I'm not comfortable saying this about the tackles, though. Only because I don't know what the tackles are after 9 games for Massie (where he's had good moments) and three quarters for Potter. If it looks like all three of them can be serviceable starters (and Massie and Potter are going to have upside heading into their second years), then I don't fell a push to add a 4th tackle (Levi's definitely going to be here next year) who may not make the team.

I admit I might be over reacting at this point but my gawd I'm sick of mediocre at best OT play.

I think and assume most here agree that the Oline is the major reason for the 5 straight losses. Let's not pin our hopes on 2 rookies improving and an adequate vet returning from injury the being the answer.

While I share you optomism that we might be okay to good at OT next year I would prefer to add another bullet in the chamber.

 

[kerouac9]

I admit I might be over reacting at this point but my gawd I'm sick of mediocre at best OT play.

I think and assume most here agree that the Oline is the major reason for the 5 straight losses. Let's not pin our hopes on 2 rookies improving and an adequate vet returning from injury the being the answer.

While I share you optomism that we might be okay to good at OT next year I would prefer to add another bullet in the chamber.

So... the answer is two more rookie OL? The OL is a problem because we had one guy who clearly was overmatched and was incorrectly evaluated by Mitch and the coaching staff of being NFL quality. If you put an actual NFL quality player in D'Anthony Batiste's place, the OL gets much better.

Again, the NFL is about operating in a limited-resource environment. If we're going to sink money into our offensive line like the Tampa Bay Bucs, that money has to come from someplace else--either re-signing someone like Andre Roberts or bringing in a mid-round pick to replace Kerry Rhodes.

If we're going to sink 2 high draft picks into the offensive line, then that means not providing help to areas where the cupboard is nearly bare, like ILB after we release Stewart Bradley or RB.

 

[john h]

This season is going to be a pretty nightmarish 6-10 type year. More nightmarish than some in the past, because we got two-thirds of our wins out of the way in the first month of the season, and now we have a bunch of tough games ahead of us, with little respite and a lot of tough home opponents. But there is a silver lining: Tyler Wilson is going to have some great skill possession weapons to throw to, and a solid-ish line in front of him to buy him time.

IMO, Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Roberts, Michael Floyd, Early Doucet, and Rob Housler are a Top 10 receiving corps in the NFL. It might be Top 5--along with the Cowboys, Packers, Falcons, and Giants (I didn't think very hard about this; give me a break).

Levi Brown, Daryn Colledge, Lyle Sendlein, Adam Snyder, and Bobbie Massie will be an adequate starting line that can/could be improved with a mid-round draft pick at OG and the continued development of Senio Kelemete and Nate Potter.

The offense is going to take off with an adequate signal caller under center. It could be really good if Ryan Williams and Beanie Wells can stay healthy.

I think that the Cards would be better off cutting ties to Kevin Kolb rather than force a restructure on him, but the quarterback situation has to be improved this offseason. The other question is what to do in the backfield. The Cards have to add a legitimate player who can be productive on 250 carries. I think the Cards should invest a 1st round pick in a QB and a 3rd or 4th round pick in a running back and that one of Beanie Wells or Ryan Williams should probably not be on the roster after training camp.

We can't go into the 2013 season with the top two running backs on the roster being medical red flags.

He may be good for only a couple more years but I would still like that big RB the Rams are going to let go. He is out of the mold of Marshaun Lynch only older. If you need some short yardage at the goal line he is going to get it. I am surprised the Rams are letting him go.

 

[kerouac9]

He may be good for only a couple more years but I would still like that big RB the Rams are going to let go. He is out of the mold of Marshaun Lynch only older. If you need some short yardage at the goal line he is going to get it. I am surprised the Rams are letting him go.

Isn't that why we have Beanie Wells? I love me some Steven Jackson, but I'd rather spend money elsewhere. If neither Beanie nor Ryan Williams play special teams, that 3rd RB is going to have to contribute in the return game.

I hope that Williams finds a timeshare job with a team like San Francisco or San Diego or Indy (what a great landing spot that would be for him) and gets to taste the playoffs again before he retires.

 

[Duckjake]

So... the answer is two more rookie OL? The OL is a problem because we had one guy who clearly was overmatched and was incorrectly evaluated by Mitch and the coaching staff of being NFL quality. If you put an actual NFL quality player in D'Anthony Batiste's place, the OL gets much better.

Again, the NFL is about operating in a limited-resource environment. If we're going to sink money into our offensive line like the Tampa Bay Bucs, that money has to come from someplace else--either re-signing someone like Andre Roberts or bringing in a mid-round pick to replace Kerry Rhodes.

If we're going to sink 2 high draft picks into the offensive line, then that means not providing help to areas where the cupboard is nearly bare, like ILB after we release Stewart Bradley or RB.

The offensive line is a problem because the coaching is awful not just because one guy is missing.

I still don't buy your basing personnel decisions mainly on salary cap implications. There always seems to be money to pay guys. Fitz' billions were going to handicap us but they had $60 million to give to Kolb.

 

[kerouac9]

The offensive line is a problem because the coaching is awful not just because one guy is missing.

I still don't buy your basing personnel decisions mainly on salary cap implications. There always seems to be money to pay guys. Fitz' billions were going to handicap us but they had $60 million to give to Kolb.

I think that fans overestimate the impact that offensive line position coaches have on the performance of their players. The best offensive line in the NFL still gives up sacks, just one less sack per game than the average offensive line.

22 sacks was the difference between the most-sacked (55) and least-sacked (23) offenses in the NFL last year. The median offensive sack number was 36. From Football Outsiders' advanced metrics, the difference between the best offensive line and the NFL median is about one sack every 30 drop backs.

It's not just salary cap space. The limitations on NFL rosters are threefold:

1) 53-man roster
2) Draft picks
3) Salary cap

Those are the limitations that teams have to work within. You can't dress 10 offensive linemen each week, because that's nearly 20% of your roster. You can't use 3 or 4 draft picks every year on your OL, because then you're not growing/getting younger at other areas of your roster. You can't pay $10 million a year to three different offensive linemen, unless you have guys at QB, RB, and WR on rookie contracts still.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think that fans overestimate the impact that offensive line position coaches have on the performance of their players. The best offensive line in the NFL still gives up sacks, just one less sack per game than the average offensive line.

22 sacks was the difference between the most-sacked (55) and least-sacked (23) offenses in the NFL last year. The median offensive sack number was 36. From Football Outsiders' advanced metrics, the difference between the best offensive line and the NFL median is about one sack every 30 drop backs.

It's not just salary cap space. The limitations on NFL rosters are threefold:

1) 53-man roster
2) Draft picks
3) Salary cap

Those are the limitations that teams have to work within. You can't dress 10 offensive linemen each week, because that's nearly 20% of your roster. You can't use 3 or 4 draft picks every year on your OL, because then you're not growing/getting younger at other areas of your roster. You can't pay $10 million a year to three different offensive linemen, unless you have guys at QB, RB, and WR on rookie contracts still.

32 not 22 if your numbers are right. And of course it's not just sacks, it's that we can't run an offense that suits our personnel and QB (Skelton) because the OL can't block it.

I do agree to an extent but I do think OL is one place in the NFL where coaching REALLY matters.

I've seen it too often, the guy who took over in Atlanta was it Dennison I forget the name, overnight their OL looked better. I saw Cable come in to Oakland and overnight their horrible OL looked marginal and that's how he ended up getting the head coaching job.

I think Grimm is terrible, I have no expectation that a better OL coach would make Batiste look better, like you said he was just horribly misevaluated, not an NFL player. But I do think a better coach would get better play from the 5 as a group.

I do think if there's a stud there like maybe that kid Lewan from Michigan you take him, otherwise we're probably going to take a QB or if we get lucky someone like Te'O on defense.

But a really good OL even as a rookie would help this unit , otherwise I agree we need to hope that Brown comes back the others get better and healthy(Snyder) and I sure would like to see a different OL coach. I'd kill to have us fire Grimm and replace him with Cable in the same basic job, he's a terrific OL coach and while I wouldn't want him as a head coach, I think in the role he has now as assistant head coach, he's pretty good.

 

[PJ1]

Isn't that why we have Beanie Wells? I love me some Steven Jackson, but I'd rather spend money elsewhere. If neither Beanie nor Ryan Williams play special teams, that 3rd RB is going to have to contribute in the return game.

I hope that Williams finds a timeshare job with a team like San Francisco or San Diego or Indy (what a great landing spot that would be for him) and gets to taste the playoffs again before he retires.

Jackson even at his age plays far more than Chrissy Wells. Not saying I would sign Jackson but we need a more durable back.

 

[Chopper0080]

I admit I might be over reacting at this point but my gawd I'm sick of mediocre at best OT play.

I think and assume most here agree that the Oline is the major reason for the 5 straight losses. Let's not pin our hopes on 2 rookies improving and an adequate vet returning from injury the being the answer.

While I share you optomism that we might be okay to good at OT next year I would prefer to add another bullet in the chamber.

But we run into problems because we have so many holes on our offensive line. I would love to add a young LT like Luke Joeckel in the draft, but how does that improve our offensive line as a unit? It adds another young player outside to a group of Levi Brown, Bobby Massie, and Nate Potter while we still trot out the terrible interior group of Colledge, Snyder and Sendlein.

We need to add a top interior player who can win one on one matchups, put him next to whomever wins the LT battle next year between Levi Brown and Nate Potter. This would give us a solid combo on one side, allow Colledge/Snyder/Kelemete to batte for the RG spot and provide help with a TE to the RT. Yes, we would still have holes, but they now become managable vs the multiple of issues we have now which we can't even game plan to overcome.

 

[Chopper0080]

Isn't that why we have Beanie Wells? I love me some Steven Jackson, but I'd rather spend money elsewhere. If neither Beanie nor Ryan Williams play special teams, that 3rd RB is going to have to contribute in the return game.

I hope that Williams finds a timeshare job with a team like San Francisco or San Diego or Indy (what a great landing spot that would be for him) and gets to taste the playoffs again before he retires.

I would rather pay Chris Ivory than Steven Jackson. A backfield of Wells, Williams, Ivory and LSH (at vet min) gives us a ton of options and depth. It might not be the most dynamic group in the NFL, but it is more than servicable.

 

[kerouac9]

32 not 22 if your numbers are right. And of course it's not just sacks, it's that we can't run an offense that suits our personnel and QB (Skelton) because the OL can't block it.

I do agree to an extent but I do think OL is one place in the NFL where coaching REALLY matters.

I've seen it too often, the guy who took over in Atlanta was it Dennison I forget the name, overnight their OL looked better. I saw Cable come in to Oakland and overnight their horrible OL looked marginal and that's how he ended up getting the head coaching job.

I think Grimm is terrible, I have no expectation that a better OL coach would make Batiste look better, like you said he was just horribly misevaluated, not an NFL player. But I do think a better coach would get better play from the 5 as a group.

I do think if there's a stud there like maybe that kid Lewan from Michigan you take him, otherwise we're probably going to take a QB or if we get lucky someone like Te'O on defense.

But a really good OL even as a rookie would help this unit , otherwise I agree we need to hope that Brown comes back the others get better and healthy(Snyder) and I sure would like to see a different OL coach. I'd kill to have us fire Grimm and replace him with Cable in the same basic job, he's a terrific OL coach and while I wouldn't want him as a head coach, I think in the role he has now as assistant head coach, he's pretty good.

I agree that OL coaches along with DB coaches and WR coaches are the most important positional coaches in the NFL, because for each of those positions technique is so important.

I agree that Russ Grimm is a terrible OL coach, and needs to be replaced. But if the problem is OL coaching, then can we say for sure that the personnel are terrible across the board?

I think that Massie, Potter, and Brown are a tackle group that you can win with. I'm not sure about Kelemete, Snyder, and Colledge. Are one of those three guys going to be your best OL on a winning team? Ugh, I just don't think so.

I think that if we improved the BEST OL, everyone else gets lifted up. I'm perfectly happy using our first round pick on Tyler Wilson and our second round pick on a top guard. I think that gives us good youth moving forward.

But I don't think there's another David DeCastro in this draft class.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree that OL coaches along with DB coaches and WR coaches are the most important positional coaches in the NFL, because for each of those positions technique is so important.

I agree that Russ Grimm is a terrible OL coach, and needs to be replaced. But if the problem is OL coaching, then can we say for sure that the personnel are terrible across the board?

I think that Massie, Potter, and Brown are a tackle group that you can win with. I'm not sure about Kelemete, Snyder, and Colledge. Are one of those three guys going to be your best OL on a winning team? Ugh, I just don't think so.

I think that if we improved the BEST OL, everyone else gets lifted up. I'm perfectly happy using our first round pick on Tyler Wilson and our second round pick on a top guard. I think that gives us good youth moving forward.

But I don't think there's another David DeCastro in this draft class.

Chance Warmack out of Alabama might be better just because he should test out as more athletic. Jonathan Cooper is also very good, but needs to get a bit stronger at point of attack. Both of these guys possess DeCastro type movement skills which would be fantastic in our system.

 

[Chopper0080]

Oh, and hopefulli Mike Munchak gets fired at Tennessee and we can hire him as an offensive line coach.

 

[PJ1]

Oh, and hopefulli Mike Munchak gets fired at Tennessee and we can hire him as an offensive line coach.

The Titans offensive line is lousy.

 

[Mulli]

Oh, and hopefulli Mike Munchak gets fired at Tennessee and we can hire him as an offensive line coach.

Mike Munchak = Russ Grimm.

 

[Duckjake]

The Titans offensive line is lousy.

4.8 yards per attempt rushing (Johnson who has 80% of their rushing attempts is at 5.0 ) and a sack % of 4.9% versus our 3.4 (2.94 if you just count running backs) and 10.4. What does that make our offensive line?

 

[PJ1]

4.8 yards per attempt rushing (Johnson who has 80% of their rushing attempts is at 5.0 ) and a sack % of 4.9% versus our 3.4 (2.94 if you just count running backs) and 10.4. What does that make our offensive line?

I have watched them and they are not good. Lots of garbage yards for Johnson and we don't have a back near the talent he is. They are not Cardinal bad but they are not good either.

 

[Duckjake]

I have watched them and they are not good. Lots of garbage yards for Johnson and we don't have a back near the talent he is. They are not Cardinal bad but they are not good either.

I agree they don't have a back near as bad as we do now but Beanie was at 2.6 ypc when he went out and RWilliams was at 2.8. That's just pasthetic.

 

[Chopper0080]

The Titans offensive line is lousy.

Wow, I remember before Munchak got the head coaching job the Titans had on eof the best offensive lines in football so I'm not sure if you are viewing the team as it is now, or when Munchak was actually the offensive line coach.