Since the Trade

[Covert Rain]

Just wanted to take a look at some #'s since the trade.

Turk (last 10)
13 points
5.2 rebounds
6.8 assists
1.5 steals
over 40% from 3
7th most efficient Small Forward in the NBA
#2 in the NBA in assists among SF
#7 in the NBA in steals among SF
#11 in the NBA in Def Rebounds among SF


I guess Turk needed the right coach and the right system. I feel like the Cards trading a player who didn't do much here and went on to do well some place else. Even though I know it was the right move because he didn't fit...it still pains me to see him put up 13 points 17 assists, 3 rebounds and 5 steals 1 block last game. Turk is contributing again.

The conventional wisdom here is that Turk didn't fit the Suns. I think that most players simply don't fit in this system period.


Richardson
JRich top 6 in defending opposing SG scoring (11.1 per)
Shooting over 40% from 3
Almost 2 steals per game
#11 in the NBA in rebounding among SG
#9 in defensive rebounds among SG
#13 in FG%

Though he is still not in some areas (PPG) back to where he was as a Sun, the last 10 show he is on his way and his defensive #'s against opposing SG is all of the sudden good.

Orlando overall
Orlando was struggling to score points and was highly inefficient. They were also losing games. Since the trade you would have expected trading 3 guys with good defensive #'s would hurt the team defensively for the sake of offense right? Well not so much. They are actually playing better on both ends of the court. Since the trade:

9 game win streak
Best 3 point shooting team
#1 rated efficient back court in all of basketball
#2 rated Front Court
#1 rated in overall team efficiency
#2 in out of the paint efficiency
#6 overall at SG
#10 overall at the SF position
#1 rated defensive team since Trade (up from #7)


Suns
Well we all know how the Suns have been doing since the trade. This trade is looking really lopsided right now and only highlights how bad our system really is when it comes to defensive philosophy IMO.

#10 3 Point % (down from #9)
#13th rated back court (down from #3 after trade)
#23 overall team efficiency (down from #22)
#13 Scoring (down from #2)
#25 rated Front Court (up from 2nd worst in the NBA)
Last in points in the paint (no change)
19th Best bench (down from 10th)
#30 overall rated from Center (no change) - Lopez ranked #42, Gortat #29
#28 overall rated from the SG position (down from #20)
#7 overall rated from the SF position (up from #13)

We are down in the back court but still doing OK which is a testament to Nash. We are worse from the SG position and improved at the SF position. The Center position is a wash because we are still starting Lopez and Gortat has a higher rating then Lopez overall and is still not starting.

Very disturbing and the it appears that Orlando is looking like geniuses so for in this trade. Not to mention that they turned two guys that were not playing very good defense into better defensive players almost instantly.

None of this might hold up a month or so from now but it's disturbing to say the least. IMO it's also a testament to the Suns front office, coaching and defensive philosophy on this team.

 

[WuRaider]

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[mojorizen7]

You'll get no argument from me Daren.

Despite Nash's greatness,playmakers(like Hedo the Turk) don't seem to fit in very well here....as long as we continue to run Nash Ball. Nash can turn mediocre players into great finishers but what about turning other players into good or great decision makers?
I don't know. Name me one PG/SG who has significantly developed under Nash in the last 6 years and has gone on to enjoy success elsewhere.

 

[BC867]

You'll get no argument from me Daren.

Despite Nash's greatness,playmakers (like Hedo the Turk) don't seem to fit in very well here....as long as we continue to run Nash Ball. Nash can turn mediocre players into great finishers but what about turning other players into good or great decision makers?
I don't know. Name me one PG/SG who has significantly developed under Nash in the last 6 years and has gone on to enjoy success elsewhere.

To paraphrase -- give a teammate an assist and he'll eat for a day -- teach him to assist and he'll eat for a lifetime.

I've always felt that a Point Guard who needs to score 20 every night hurts the team, whether it was Kevin Johnson or Steve Nash, as great as they both were. Too many young players tend to stand around . . . or certainly not develop or use team skills.

It's a tough situation to resolve. And Nash is a tough act to follow, whether it's Goran Dragic or whatever Point Guard follows Steve.

It is ironic that if Jason Kidd happened to be our Point Guard right now with his passing, defense and rebounding, our recent past would have been no worse and our future would look brighter.

Still, it's hard to not appreciate the all-star skills (developed with the Mavs) that Steve brought back to the Suns. I did . . . and I do.

Now we pay the price, just as we are paying the price for Amar'e's eye and knees.

 

[mojorizen7]

To paraphrase -- give a teammate an assist and he'll eat for a day -- teach him to assist and he'll eat for a lifetime.

I've always felt that a Point Guard who needs to score 20 every night hurts the team, whether it was Kevin Johnson or Steve Nash, as great as they both were. Too many young players tend to stand around . . . or certainly not develop or use team skills.

It's a tough situation to resolve. And Nash is a tough act to follow, whether it's Goran Dragic or whatever Point Guard follows Steve.

It is ironic that if Jason Kidd happened to be our Point Guard right now with his passing, defense and rebounding, our recent past would have been no worse and our future would look brighter.

Still, it's hard to not appreciate the all-star skills (developed with the Mavs) that Steve brought back to the Suns. I did . . . and I do.

Now we pay the price, just as we are paying the price for Amar'e's eye and knees.

Nash is a once in a lifetime marvel PG offensively. Better vision and court instincts than any PG i've seen in my lifetime(maybe even including Magic Johnson). His pure shooting is second to none. His will to win is of a rare breed.

Basketball is played on both ends though,and I(as a fan of SUNS) can no longer justify Nash's glaring defensive shortcomings....and what i deem as "Nash Ball" in the quest for a title.

Of course, i've been saying this for 3 years since that great '07 team just couldn't get a stop playing "Nash Ball." Whatever though....Nash was/is fun to watch.<<< not sarcasm.

I'd like to watch a few of our current younger guys(and next years crop of guys) "grow up" and develop without being spoonfed by the great(but 37 yr old) Steve Nash.

Cut bait Sarver....or better yet,bring the ship back to harbour and walk away....please.

 

[Vellasco]

Quick thoughts that came to my mind after reading all that stuffs:

- Is it just Nash Ball vs Hedo Ball? Only two option to pick?
- Or, Could it be possible to go with %40 from option A and %60 from option B or vice versa?
- What happened to "Nash is one of the great shooters in the league" argument at the beginning of season.
- If so, why all the time Hedo was setting screens for Nash but not Frye/Lopez for Turk?
- Is it really convenient way to push all offense only over 30 something old PG, instead prevent him from serious injury risks by decreasing his role?
- If its all about system, is it possible to talk about the same system after loosing most crucial part of it? (Amare)
- Why not by making some proper adjustments for a deadly 6'10" PG to add another dimension to your newly constructed offense?
- Just watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK1i1_dw1is and see how he motivated at defense when he is big part of the offense. Hedo PF at defense project has many defects, true, but you cant say same thing for "small ball" project, right?
- Nash+Hill > Nash+Hedo ? I know most of you will vote for Nash+Hill, me too, but is it proven from all aspects? Its being long time this duo was playing together and The system was constructed for them. Is it possible to say same thing for Nash+Hedo duo? It worked there with Arenas and Jameer, why not here?

Sorry if i'm being another teaser when the things are not looking so good for the Sun. I'm sure things will start clicking after one point and you will be getting better and better everyday. But, to me, its not fair to say Turk does not fit the Suns. At this point i can ask you "The Sun have done enough things to make it work".?

 

[elindholm]

Why are you still here?

 

[jagu]

I don't care if Hedo scores 50 per night. I'm glad he is gone.

 

[AfroSuns]

The Sun have done enough things to make it work".?

um, you know Hedo do not fit the Suns system or he wasn't inspired to play here. Infact, you were begging for Hedo to be traded to the magic.
I still think Hedo is not better than what we saw while with the Suns, Some players are just perfect for a system and Hedo is at home with the Magic as currently constructed.
If Hedo had been brought here while Amare was here, i truly believe the Suns would have been a contender, take Howard out of the mix in Orlando and watch Hedo's production go down; on both ends of the court.

 

[Covert Rain]

I still think Hedo is not better than what we saw while with the Suns

I believe the Suns system is specific to certain types of players. Not to mention our system can obviously take decent defenders and put those players in a position where they look horrible.

If Hedo keeps it up in Orlando, he obviously is much better then he played with the Suns. My guess is he was not as bad as he appeared with us and not as good as he is looking right now. He is probably somewhere between.

It's a fact that as of right now, the Magic are a better offensive and defensive team with Hedo and JRich on that team. It's a fact that both players are playing better defense with that team.

It might not hold up but if your a Magic fan your loving this trade right now.

 

[Broseph]

yes, this is all very depressing. i love my team, but they are just not fun to watch anymore and that starting lineup is atrocious.

 

[jibikao]

I knew Vince Carter won't help and it shows. Not surprising there.

I just didn't know Gortat and Pietrus' offenses are that bad.

 

[jibikao]

It might not hold up but if your a Magic fan your loving this trade right now.

Magic fans are probably so happy that they got rid of Carter and Lewis. Neither of them is helping the new team apparently.

 

[BC867]

I knew Vince Carter won't help and it shows. Not surprising there.

I just didn't know Gortat and Pietrus' offenses are that bad.

I think that if the Suns weren't such a dysfunctional team at this time, all three would be doing better.

The only bright spots are Nash (and the more he does, the less the rest of the team does) and Hill, our two oldest guys. 'Sad that our aging Small Forward is our best defensive player.

Grant hit the floor 4 times within the first few minutes of our previous game, the last one finishing him. Yes, I know that someone landed on his foot for the last one.

But 4 times? If he was trying to light a fire under the Suns, I commend him, but I don't think crashing to the floor over and over is the best way to do it.

 

[Chaplin]

I think that if the Suns weren't such a dysfunctional team at this time, all three would be doing better.

The only bright spots are Nash (and the more he does, the less the rest of the team does) and Hill, our two oldest guys. 'Sad that our aging Small Forward is our best defensive player.

Grant hit the floor 4 times within the first few minutes of our previous game, the last one finishing him. Yes, I know that someone landed on his foot for the last one.

But 4 times? If he was trying to light a fire under the Suns, I commend him, but I don't think crashing to the floor over and over is the best way to do it.

Seems to be one of the only ways our players can get a few foul shots.

The problem is, with Grant out, we went long stretches without any good defenders on the floor. Dudley didn't do too much and Pietrus didn't even come into the game until late. And Childress again only played a few minutes. Can't play defense without anyone that can actually play it on the floor.

 

[jibikao]

I think that if the Suns weren't such a dysfunctional team at this time, all three would be doing better.

The only bright spots are Nash (and the more he does, the less the rest of the team does) and Hill, our two oldest guys. 'Sad that our aging Small Forward is our best defensive player.

Grant hit the floor 4 times within the first few minutes of our previous game, the last one finishing him. Yes, I know that someone landed on his foot for the last one.

But 4 times? If he was trying to light a fire under the Suns, I commend him, but I don't think crashing to the floor over and over is the best way to do it.

Nash and Hill are trying very hard to set examples but since I no longer watch Suns' games, I have to imagine other guys are not playing as hard and playing with no passion or maybe they are just confused. The only player that I think plays just as hard is Dudley.

I know many of you want to trade Nash away but stats-wise, Nash isn't doing too bad this year. I expect a bit less assist without Amare and maybe a bit more turnovers due to new players. Overall, Nash is having a decent year at age 36.


I think the new players not only do not help, they really destruct whatever system we had left.

 

[Covert Rain]

Seems to be one of the only ways our players can get a few foul shots.

The problem is, with Grant out, we went long stretches without any good defenders on the floor. Dudley didn't do too much and Pietrus didn't even come into the game until late. And Childress again only played a few minutes. Can't play defense without anyone that can actually play it on the floor.

Supposedly, Dudley, Pietrus, Gortat and Carter are the best defenders on the team. So.....why not put them on the floor when you need defensive stops? The Suns went a huge stretch where they traded baskets then as soon as they went cold from the floor continued to give Denver every basket under the Sun.

 

[desertdawg]

The trade that saved our season! Whoever made sure Gortat was in the trade should take a bow. Who ever got rid of E-doh! deserves a medal. We now have a team playing quality B-ball (even some nice defense) before the midway break. Best trade ever.

 

[slinslin]

But what is the point of all this, we are still jut #10 in the West and even if we overtake Memphis and Portland what will be the result a first round exit against the Spurs, nice..

Our draft pick is getting worse and worse :/

 

[3rdside]

Why are you still here?

Calm down eric...

Since the trade:

Has Earl Clark turned into a player?

 

[AzStevenCal]

But what is the point of all this, we are still jut #10 in the West and even if we overtake Memphis and Portland what will be the result a first round exit against the Spurs, nice..

Our draft pick is getting worse and worse :/

Yes, our pick is getting worse and worse. By the time the season is over we will have probably played our way out of the lottery. As a fan hoping for a complete rebuild, that's a bit disappointing but as an organization, as a team, I'd expect nothing less of them. I think it's time to quit crying over spilt milk and recognize that these guys are professionals and they are going to do their best to succeed. Maybe it's just time to start enjoying the ride.

It's pretty rare for a team to truly tank the season and I don't think I've ever seen it except when a team is so close to the bottom that there appears to be little reason to put any effort into the current season. We've never reached that point. Even a month ago when we were playing like one of the 3 worst teams in the league we were still on a pace to pick somewhere around 8th or 9th and that's hardly an ideal spot from which to rebuild.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

But what is the point of all this, we are still jut #10 in the West and even if we overtake Memphis and Portland what will be the result a first round exit against the Spurs, nice..

Our draft pick is getting worse and worse :/

But, Rolo is finally figuring it out. Pietrus is now fitting in. Rolo's development alone is worth more to the rebuilding of the franchise than moving down 3 or 4 spots in the draft.

This is a draft where you might get as good a player with the 17-18 pick as you would with the 12-13 pick.

Big picture.

 

[desertdawg]

But what is the point of all this, we are still jut #10 in the West and even if we overtake Memphis and Portland what will be the result a first round exit against the Spurs, nice..

Our draft pick is getting worse and worse :/

Hahaha, I don't want the team I like to do good, I don't want them to play defense or try to win, I don't even them want to compete. I don't care if they are playing defense or if we can make the playoffs, because upsets never happen in the playoffs.
I would rather the Suns suck ass on purpose. Who cares about playing the game with integrity or trying to win, I don't know which draft pick we will get, but it's the draft so it will fix everything. So I want the Suns to be losers.
Maybe we can tank the next 5 years and live in the draft, then we can tank the next 5years after that because some of our rookies will have had been in the league for 5 years already, and we will need to draft.

Newsflash Bud, the Suns are kicking ass and are going to make it to the Playoffs, I too doubt a Championship run this year, but making the playoffs is how teams get better. If we do get bounced in the first round it should make you happy, it will improve our draft pick.
I hope we get the Lakers in the first and we run our 21 foot monster against theirs.

 

[Mainstreet]

Newsflash Bud, the Suns are kicking ass and are going to make it to the Playoffs, I too doubt a Championship run this year, but making the playoffs is how teams get better. If we do get bounced in the first round it should make you happy, it will improve our draft pick.
I hope we get the Lakers in the first and we run our 21 foot monster against theirs.

Draft order is determined by regular season records not how teams fare in the playoffs.

 

[desertdawg]

Draft picks are determined by regular season records not how teams fare in the playoffs.

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