Some Out-Of-The-Box thinking on our Draft

[spanky]

So here we sit at #6 and by all accounts our key need is DE. Holliday doesn't want to be a Card and by some accounts is NOT the answer anyway. Everyone seems high on Suggs (for very good reasons) but all agree that we have no chance getting him at #6. The #3 pick is where we need to be to get Suggs. By all accounts Houston wants to trade down. As demonstrated by their interest in Stephen Davis, they are interested in a RB. So if Suggs is the answer to our D-Line, then let's consider the following options:

a) Trade our #6 for Houston's #3 and throw in T. Jones. Ask for nothing else. Houston need a LT (Boselli is NOT the answer, we all know he's on his last legs and Carr is desparate for some O-Line help). At #6 Houston can go after the Utah LT, Gross. Voila, they solve two major headaches all at once...........OR...............

b) Now this may be "off-the-wall", (but I'll bet Walter could make a good case for the potential merits of this idea), we offer Houston LJ Shelton and TJ for their #3 and their Round 2 pick.We then have two #1's and two #2's. Four picks within the top 35 or so. We move BIG to LT use our depth to fill the RG position for this year (Brezinski as a FA would have looked good, but alas he's spoken for now). With the #3 we take Suggs. We then trade down by offerring our #6 for the Jets two first rounders and the number two we picked up from Houston. Voila, we now have three first rounders.....one we've used on Suggs......the other two can now be used to fill our other key needs at WR and CB or QB.

I'm of the mind to let Blake and McCown handle the QB chores for this year and then to determine exactly what kind of shape we really are in at this position. The next Messiah at QB will be available in three years........his name is Chris Leak. Watch him at FSU this year.....he'll make everyone forget about Michael Vick. We just have to make sure we have the first pick in 2006.

Call me crazy, casll me stupid, but I think I really like otion #2. Have at everyone!

PS. I moved to Charlotte last September having been in Scottsdale for 12 years previously. My nephew asked me when I was going to move to a city that had a good football team.....I think the Cards are getting closer. I've a lot invested in the Cards, emotionally that is.....it'll be some time before the Panthers get me to wear their colors.

 

[SECTION 11]

I like going over possible trade scenarios. It's part of what makes the draft interesting.

I'm a little concernced that Suggs might go #1 overall. The QB market seems to have dried up a little.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I would only queston TJ's trade value and how much Houston would be interested in him anyway.

I still think they will end up signing Davis, but if not, I don't see them being much interested a TJ trade for a couple of reasons:

1st of all it's still quite possible that TJ could get cut, and if he is, it might not be until June. But that is indeed just speculation on my part. It's going to be interesting to see what the Cards do have planned in regard to him. If he is cut, then there is no need to trade for him.
But let's say they they don't cut him, Houston doesn't sign Davis....I still don't see TJ fitting all that well there. He's not a power runner and with the O-line problems that Houston has right now, I just don't see TJ being very successful in that system.
Yes he's got some receiving skills they could use, but so far his "downfall" has been the inability to consistantly and effectively run "up the middle".

 

[spanky]

Stephen Davis has already signed with Carolina. In the right system, TJ MIGHT prosper. Look at Garrison Hearst. Anyway, I'd tell anything that Houston might believe to get into the third draft position.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Wow!! I missed the Davis signing somehow.

Carolina has made some interesting moves so far. Signing Delhomme, Proehl, and now Davis. Also resigning Peete as backup.

And they don't appear done yet. So far they look to be an improved team, especially on offense.

And they have Peppers and Morgan on Defense. They could be one of the more improved teams in the leage this year.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by spanky
So here we sit at #6 and by all accounts our key need is DE. Holliday doesn't want to be a Card and by some accounts is NOT the answer anyway. Everyone seems high on Suggs (for very good reasons) but all agree that we have no chance getting him at #6. The #3 pick is where we need to be to get Suggs. By all accounts Houston wants to trade down. As demonstrated by their interest in Stephen Davis, they are interested in a RB. So if Suggs is the answer to our D-Line, then let's consider the following options:

a) Trade our #6 for Houston's #3 and throw in T. Jones. Ask for nothing else. Houston need a LT (Boselli is NOT the answer, we all know he's on his last legs and Carr is desparate for some O-Line help). At #6 Houston can go after the Utah LT, Gross. Voila, they solve two major headaches all at once...........OR...............

Scenario A seems to be the most realistic. Houston missed out on Davis and there are few running back options on the open market that have as much upside as Jones. I don't believe Shelton will be traded since offensive line is the one area that the Cards appear strong at, and moving the left tackle would cause a chain reaction of chaos that they're not even willing to consider at this time. Houston is the pick to look at w/ Suggs. The question is: Are you willing to part w/ a 3rd round pick (along with Jones)?
For Suggs I would say yes, but keep in mind that the 3rd pick has a hefty price tag and the Cards have problems with complex deals that can sometimes lessen the blow of such an enormous $ figure for just one player. In the end, that may scare the Cards from making such a deal and Houston may just decide that Suggs is the best available player at #3, and thus the best option for them.

 

[kerouac9]

Peete's the started in Carolina. Delhomme's the backup, as far as I can tell.

The NFC South is the most stacked Division in the league this year. I'm glad the Cards aren't playing there.

 

[spanky]

In scenario a) I've asked for an even swap of our picks and I'll throw in Jones. I discuss a different scenario in b) when I talk about sweetening the pot with a #3

 

[JeffGollin]

In scenario a) I've asked for an even swap of our picks and I'll throw in Jones. I discuss a different scenario in b) when I talk about sweetening the pot with a #3


If we had a late third round pick, your suggestion might be worth considering. But what we have at #70 is tantamount to an extremely late second route pick and might find us giving away too much.

Sporting News has an updated 2 round mock.

They have Suggs going to Chi at #4 and has us skipping Leftwich (who drops to #7!!!) to draft Newman and then draft Dewayne White at #37.

Boy! I'd be torn about not drafting a franchise QB, but it would stabilize us at CB opposite Starks while giving us a pass rushing DE with more than some potential.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by spanky
In scenario a) I've asked for an even swap of our picks and I'll throw in Jones. I discuss a different scenario in b) when I talk about sweetening the pot with a #3

There's no scenario moving up in the top 10 without giving up a 3rd round pick. It just won't happen. In the past 2nd round picks have used as currency for moving up in the top 10, but teams are much more reluctant to give #2 picks in today’s NFL draft. Last year the Chiefs moved from 8 to 6 for a 3rd round choice. It would be a steep assumption to think that AZ could do the same from 6 to 3, except for the Jones factor.
So it would have to a combo of your 1st two scenarios: a #1 and #3 plus Jones.

 

[AZCB34]

Does anyone really believe HOU is this stupid?? They are in the drivers seat for the trade and they will get a great deal. Sorry, you would have to combine the 2 scenarios to move up to #3 where you may not even get Suggs (if that is who you really are shooting for).

So I say, NO. Stay tight at #6 and take the whomever falls to there (or best D player if it happens to be an offensive player) OR trade down (bump, nidan) if a good opportunity to do so presents itself.

 

[kerouac9]

Nidan, where are you when we need you???

 

[Dan H]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
If we had a late third round pick, your suggestion might be worth considering. But what we have at #70 is tantamount to an extremely late second route pick and might find us giving away too much.

Sporting News has an updated 2 round mock.

They have Suggs going to Chi at #4 and has us skipping Leftwich (who drops to #7!!!) to draft Newman and then draft Dewayne White at #37.

Boy! I'd be torn about not drafting a franchise QB, but it would stabilize us at CB opposite Starks while giving us a pass rushing DE with more than some potential. [/B]

Boy, you know, I'd be ecstatic if we got Newman and White. It would hurt not to get Suggs, but I'd rather have multiple quality players than one potentially great one.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Dan H
Boy, you know, I'd be ecstatic if we got Newman and White. It would hurt not to get Suggs, but I'd rather have multiple quality players than one potentially great one.

Newman and Redding for me but the idea is the same.

 

[BACH]

The 2nd scenario is unrealistic..

Our #1 and TJ to move up to #3 overall? It's possible since at least two of the three players Houston are targeting in the draft should be there at #6 (Gross, Kennedy & Robertson). Whether TJ is all it takes to swap picks with Houston I don't know, but if Graves want Suggs, that the pick he should target. Palmer will go first, Detroit don't need a DE and will take Rogers, so Suggs wil be there at #3.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

no way does houston do either of those. jones has little to no value. maybe our first, LJ, and our third for the #3 and their third rounder NEXT year. that's the best that we could get. houston holds the cards (pun fully intended), we hold nada. thomas has no value (maybe he could next a 6th rounder) - we're talking a guy who's been beaten out for the starting spot three years in a row after having been handed the starter's role. and that's on a team not really known for running the ball. no value.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I would only queston TJ's trade value and how much Houston would be interested in him anyway.

I still think they will end up signing Davis, but if not, I don't see them being much interested a TJ trade for a couple of reasons:

1st of all it's still quite possible that TJ could get cut, and if he is, it might not be until June. But that is indeed just speculation on my part. It's going to be interesting to see what the Cards do have planned in regard to him. If he is cut, then there is no need to trade for him.
But let's say they they don't cut him, Houston doesn't sign Davis....I still don't see TJ fitting all that well there. He's not a power runner and with the O-line problems that Houston has right now, I just don't see TJ being very successful in that system.
Yes he's got some receiving skills they could use, but so far his "downfall" has been the inability to consistantly and effectively run "up the middle".

Does anyone ever remember the Cardinals trading up to get someone??? It is not Mr. Bidwills philosopy to trade up so he can pay more. this is a moon shot at best.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
In scenario a) I've asked for an even swap of our picks and I'll throw in Jones. I discuss a different scenario in b) when I talk about sweetening the pot with a #3


If we had a late third round pick, your suggestion might be worth considering. But what we have at #70 is tantamount to an extremely late second route pick and might find us giving away too much.

Sporting News has an updated 2 round mock.

They have Suggs going to Chi at #4 and has us skipping Leftwich (who drops to #7!!!) to draft Newman and then draft Dewayne White at #37.

Boy! I'd be torn about not drafting a franchise QB, but it would stabilize us at CB opposite Starks while giving us a pass rushing DE with more than some potential.

I think I read Newman is around 185lbs. if this is correct i would be concerned about drafting a guy this small with our #1 no matter what his credentials are. he can run faster than david boston but he sure cannot jump with him.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

Leak went to Florida.. Although he will be a great QB hes no Vick.. More of a pocket passer but has good athletic ability. His bro plays for The Vols.

 

[slanidrac16]

Trade down ,not up.

It's never going to happen anyway, but its no sure thing that Suggs will be there. Regardless, it would take a #3 and Jones minimum for Houston to consider that deal.

Trading down would give us more options.

 

[Rats]

Originally posted by john h
I think I read Newman is around 185lbs. if this is correct i would be concerned about drafting a guy this small with our #1 no matter what his credentials are. he can run faster than david boston but he sure cannot jump with him.

This guy was top Ten...possibly top five already in the draft...when asked why he would come to the combine and run and Jump...he said he was from the old school and wanted everyone to know for sure he could do it. He out ran and out jumped everyone there. Not withstanding the ones who didn't work out at the combine...he showed he has all the measurables. I don't see the problem with drafting this guy...Champ Bailey is 190...and he gets it done...lots of guys that size do...Thanks John for your opinion...but I will still keep pluging Newman with the #6 because the D needs him.

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by Rats
...but I will still keep pluging Newman with the #6 because the D needs him.

If Suggs is gone, Newman is available and we don't draft Newman, we are complete idiots. We may have a decent defensive backfield now but, with Newman there it would probably be the best (not top five, the best ) Defensive backfield in the NFL.

 

[Rats]

Originally posted by earthsci
If Suggs is gone, Newman is available and we don't draft Newman, we are complete idiots. We may have a decent defensive backfield now but, with Newman there it would probably be the best (not top five, the best ) Defensive backfield in the NFL.

Without a solid pass rush from either Fa or the Draft...a good Defensive backfield probably wouldn't develop even with Newman. We have to pressure the QB...we can't expect even the best DB to cover for a long period of time...that said we can't pass on Newman at #6 if he is there. If Suggs is there at #6 (and all indications are he will be gone)...we might still want to get a FA pass rusher( Holliday) and take Newman. We would then have depth on the line and depth in all areas on defense. BUt I would rather get rid of dead weight and add both Suggs and Newman. The logic is that we are a young Defense that probably is a couple yrs away anyhow...so we might as well get top talent and let them develop. But with these guys we might suprise and be better quicker.