Sprewell likely to sign with Den.

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I apologize if this is not threadworthy. Let me know if it is not, because I am still learning.

According to Realgm, the Nuggets will be signing Sprewell.

Star Tribune - Sid Hartman of the Star-Tribune is reporting that Denver expects Latrell Sprewell to sign with the club and join his friend and former teammate Marcus Camby.

Sprewell had a disappointing 2004-2005 season and the Timberwolves showed no interest in re-signing the former member of the Knicks and Warriors.


There is also a blurb in Insider but I do not have access to it.

My thoughts... Obviously this is a very dangerous move for Denver. If I was Kiki, I would not want Sprewell anywhere near Melo considering the problems Melo has already had. Although, it could pay off if Sprewell plays well, and checks his attitude. Skill-wise, this is an upgrade for Denver at the SG position. They will be formidable next year along with Houston who has also made upgrades.
 

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This is the thing that worries me most.


I think at best the Suns may be about as good as they were last year but Denver was awesome the last 6 weeks of the season and looks to be much better this year. On top of that Golden State is very good, the Suns lost to them twice at the end of the season after they got Baron Davis.

Houston kept all their talent and added Swift, the Lakers amy be better...

Its looking like the Suns may be lucky to get a top 4 finish in the west.

If they get off to a slow start people will turn on Sarver FAST and you can put that in the bank.
 

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Sprewell doesn't make the Nuggets better. And remember that the Pacific winner is automatically a top three seed in the playoffs. So unless Sacramento got a lot better, the Suns are still okay there.

Still, I agree that the playoffs will be rough. Let's hope the newer, tougher version of the Suns will be up to the challenges when the time comes.
 
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Sprewell doesn't make the Nuggets better.

Talent-wise he is an upgrade over DeMarr and a fat out of shape Leonard.
 
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If they get off to a slow start people will turn on Sarver FAST

You still haven't explained how this is Sarver's fault. What was he supposed to do, match Johnson for way too much money and have a pouting semistar fouling up the chemistry of the entire team? If that's the goal, why not just reacquire Penny Hardaway? I think Isiah Thomas would probably be willing to let him go.
 
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elindholm said:
If they get off to a slow start people will turn on Sarver FAST

You still haven't explained how this is Sarver's fault. What was he supposed to do, match Johnson for way too much money and have a pouting semistar fouling up the chemistry of the entire team? If that's the goal, why not just reacquire Penny Hardaway? I think Isiah Thomas would probably be willing to let him go.

He admittedly blew it last summer. Just because he admitted he was wrong doesn't absolve him of the responsibility. He also made the Q trade to save money.

If he hadn't been a tightwad he could have kept Q and JJ and signed a free agent with the mid level exception. Sure it would have caused cap problems but it would have kept a team intact that was very close to winning it all last year.

This team didn't need to be blown up it just needed to get a year older and add a minor piece or two. The main reason we lost to the Spurs was our inexperience.

As for Sarver being cheap I can't believe I need to rehash all the little things that have come up on this board over the last year.

Is your contention that he is not a cheap owner?

He has admitted so himself. Of course he uses terms like fiscally responsible but he has said he won't "waste" money, he won't exceed the cap etc...Not to mention all the little cost cutting daily operations stuff, complaining that he made the "$10,000 book" for nothing........................

Colangelo always knew how to run the team responsibly without coming off as CHEAP.
 

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devilalum said:
He also made the Q trade to save money.


I disagree, they made the Q trade to aquire Thomas.

It will save them money in two years or so when the Thomas' contract expires but it actually cost them more money this season.
 

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devilalum said:
He admittedly blew it last summer. Just because he admitted he was wrong doesn't absolve him of the responsibility. He also made the Q trade to save money.

If he hadn't been a tightwad he could have kept Q and JJ and signed a free agent with the mid level exception. Sure it would have caused cap problems but it would have kept a team intact that was very close to winning it all last year.

This team didn't need to be blown up it just needed to get a year older and add a minor piece or two. The main reason we lost to the Spurs was our inexperience.

As for Sarver being cheap I can't believe I need to rehash all the little things that have come up on this board over the last year.

Is your contention that he is not a cheap owner?

He has admitted so himself. Of course he uses terms like fiscally responsible but he has said he won't "waste" money, he won't exceed the cap etc...Not to mention all the little cost cutting daily operations stuff, complaining that he made the "$10,000 book" for nothing........................

Colangelo always knew how to run the team responsibly without coming off as CHEAP.

How close was this team to winning it all? They got spanked by the Spurs pretty much that entire series. The Spurs closed this team out, and the Suns had no answer down the stretch offensively or defensively. I don't think any team that loses 4-1 in the Conference Finals with home court advantage could be considered close.

That said, I think that this Suns team has improved over last year's with depth/rebounding/defense, and that's exactly what killed them vs. San Antonio.
 

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devilalum said:
He admittedly blew it last summer. Just because he admitted he was wrong doesn't absolve him of the responsibility. He also made the Q trade to save money.

If he hadn't been a tightwad he could have kept Q and JJ and signed a free agent with the mid level exception. Sure it would have caused cap problems but it would have kept a team intact that was very close to winning it all last year.

This team didn't need to be blown up it just needed to get a year older and add a minor piece or two. The main reason we lost to the Spurs was our inexperience.

As for Sarver being cheap I can't believe I need to rehash all the little things that have come up on this board over the last year.

Is your contention that he is not a cheap owner?

He has admitted so himself. Of course he uses terms like fiscally responsible but he has said he won't "waste" money, he won't exceed the cap etc...Not to mention all the little cost cutting daily operations stuff, complaining that he made the "$10,000 book" for nothing........................

Colangelo always knew how to run the team responsibly without coming off as CHEAP.


Is it going to be your goal to complain about Sarver for the rest of year? As for not exceeding the cap, the only way he can do that is by signing our own free agents. Hunter wasn't worth what he was asking, so going over the cap had nothing to do with letting him go, and Joe Johnson specifically said he didn't want to play here.

Sarver just bought the team last summer and almost immediately signed Nash and Q! And hindsight is 20/20, but come on, are you going to admit that you thought JJ was worth a near-max contract last summer? You may think the NBA is about fairweather finances flying by the seat of your pants, but unfortunately, it's not. Sarver made the right move at the time by taking it slow with JJ, and this summer, he told JJ (or tried to, at least) that he would match the 70 million no questions asked. JJ told him not to. How is that Sarver's fault. Instead, he had BC get great compensation for a player who was not even a second option yet thinks of himself as some great star.
 

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He admittedly blew it last summer.

That was an error in basketball judgment, not in willingness to pay. He didn't think Johnson was worth his asking price, and most of us on this board didn't either. Overpaying players just to make sure you don't lose them a year or two later is a terrible basketball strategy.

He also made the Q trade to save money.

You must be the only person who believes this. Anyone who doesn't realize that the Suns had crippling weaknesses in rebounding and interior defense last season is blind.

If he hadn't been a tightwad he could have kept Q and JJ and signed a free agent with the mid level exception. Sure it would have caused cap problems...

It's not just that it would have caused cap problems. It would have made the team virtually unable to make any other roster adjustments for the next several years. How are they supposed to stay competitive that way?

The main reason we lost to the Spurs was our inexperience.

Wishful thinking. The main reasons the Suns lost to the Spurs are that they let the Spurs have multiple shots on way too many possessions, and that, even with Johnson, their roster was far too short to allow anyone the luxury of playing tough defense and risking foul trouble.

As for Sarver being cheap I can't believe I need to rehash all the little things that have come up on this board over the last year.

But in most cases, we've later been proved wrong. Many of us assumed that the Cabarkapa dump was for money reasons, but then the team turned around and used that exception to acquire McCarty, who was better suited to help at that time. The other cases are similar. Besides selling Gortat, can you come up with any tangible examples of cheapness, or is it just your subjective impression?

He has admitted so himself. Of course he uses terms like fiscally responsible but he has said he won't "waste" money, he won't exceed the cap etc...Not to mention all the little cost cutting daily operations stuff, complaining that he made the "$10,000 book" for nothing........................

No one likes to blow $10,000, not even Cuban. I'll readily agree that Sarver has been embarrassing at times, and it may well be that he's still getting used to the high-stakes gambles that come with owning a major sports franchise. But I haven't seen any clear evidence that he's cheaper than the middle of the pack.

Moreover, I don't think you have either. You're upset that last year's team fell short and you've maintained hope that all they needed was another year to try to build on the magic. That was a longshot at best, but the plan became completely torpedoed when Johnson bolted. Now you need someone to blame, so you've set your sights on Sarver. That anger is misdirected.

Last year's team not only overachieved, but it's gone, and it would have been gone no matter who the owner was or how much money he spent. It's just as pointless to pine for the 2004-05 Suns as it would be to try to re-assemble the Barkley/Kevin Johnson team.
 
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Sorry, one other thing:

Colangelo always knew how to run the team responsibly without coming off as CHEAP.

Can you explain how the Gugliotta trade fits into this analysis?
 

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devilalum said:
Houston kept all their talent and added Swift, the Lakers amy be better...

Its looking like the Suns may be lucky to get a top 4 finish in the west.

If they get off to a slow start people will turn on Sarver FAST and you can put that in the bank.

Repeat after me. . .

"The sky is not falling. The sky is not falling. The sky is not falling"

JJ was good, but he was the 4th option and we have added some legitimate talent to fill the void. We will be a different team this year, but still a great team. There is no way that we are falling from 1st to 5th without losing one of our stars to injury.
 

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I understand both side of view w relation to Sarver, but mainly i lean toward Eric's POV and heres why...


Sarver HAD come across as cheap to the general public and press, with revelations of a minimum roster and different accouterments taken away from the players. He is not exactly Mark Cuban when it comes to money in the bank account either. He also makes it very apparent that this is a BUSINESS he will make money or it will not be a worthwile proposition for him. (That last statement is in regard to not giving fifty to JJ last year and not willing to give him 70 million if he was going to be a chemistry problem this year, which fortunatly are decisions that are going to work out ok basket ballwise) But because he does not overspend on players such as Paul Allen, James Dolan, and Cubes doesn't mean he is a "cheap" owner. He has paid for in order Steve Nash, Q, Raja Bell and seems willing to spend on move his basketball people think are wise (like the James Jones trade)

He is fiscally responsible but you can tell he wants to win. I think anyone who heard his interview with Gambo and Ash were proved of this fact when they heard it. Thats in his best business interest too. In the end it might be better that he is not either extreme, as the aftermentioned owners seem to perpetually deal with salary cap problems due to poor contracts. And he is not Donald Sterling either ( unless some how *God Forbid* Amare somehow leaves for another team, than all bets are off)

So back off Sarver for now DevilAlum, the one move he has made that doesn't seem to be in direct correllation to winning is JJ leaving and i think we all understand that that was not completly the Suns fault. While the Suns in hindsight should have paid Joe, he seems now to be a self interested petulant glory hog, who i now question wether he should be careful what he wishs for. I love Joe as a player but even i always questioned his low key demeanor and the ability to handle the spotlight. Now that chemistry problem will play its self out in Atlanta with 70 million and high draft picks on the line. Sarver was right in letting joe go for compensation, and maybe lucky in that it didnt have to be his gamble financially on Joe.

Lets give this team time to sort itself out and pass judgement from there. Remember they could be huge players at the trade deadline with an ability to add salary armed with trade exceptions and draft picks. This current roster is not necessairily the team that is going into the 06 playoffs. Lets give it some time before we pass judgement because things could end up working out...........
 

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But because he does not overspend on players such as Paul Allen, James Dolan, and Cubes doesn't mean he is a "cheap" owner.

And I think it's worth pointing out that lavish overspending by those owners has not put an elite team on the floor, nor has it positioned them well for the future. Indeed, part of the very reason that the Knicks are terrible and the Blazers have been forced into a complete overhaul is that their owners were willing to overspend.
 

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Chaplin said:
Is it going to be your goal to complain about Sarver for the rest of year? .

If the Suns perform at a level equal to or better than last year I will sing his praises.

And I haven't even begun to complain. If the Suns start off something like 25-20 then you will hear me complain.

If you read between the lines you will see that even JC is disappointed with the Suns off season. He's not blaming Sarver but he's disappointed none the less.
 

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devilalum said:
If the Suns perform at a level equal to or better than last year I will sing his praises.

And I haven't even begun to complain. If the Suns start off something like 25-20 then you will hear me complain.

If you read between the lines you will see that even JC is disappointed with the Suns off season. He's not blaming Sarver but he's disappointed none the less.

Please give us examples of the "between the lines" disappointment Jerry has had. I'm just curious. I think everybody is disappointed at JJ's lack of loyalty, but what other instances are you referring to?
 

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I think Eric is right.

The trade of Q for KT will cost the team more due to a trade kicker and the fact that Q's contract from front loaded. The Suns have used their available cap space (both MLE and LLE)and part of their TE rather than load up on minimum contract guys. They've also gave their coach more money.

As for the luxury tax, it is curious that the Pacers aren't being called "cheap" even though they simply gave away James Jones and are widely reported to be trying to reduce salary. This is the kind of behavior that teams well above the luxury line end up with and the Suns are trying to avoid.
 

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elindholm He admittedly blew it last summer.

That was an error in basketball judgment, not in willingness to pay. He didn't think Johnson was worth his asking price, and most of us on this board didn't either. Overpaying players just to make sure you don't lose them a year or two later is a terrible basketball strategy. The bad blood with JJ started with Sarver giving Q a big contract then turning around and making JJ a low offer. Yes I do remember everybody on this board saying that the offer was fair (like we know anything) but JJ was clearly insulted and it was all down hill from there.

He also made the Q trade to save money.

You must be the only person who believes this. Anyone who doesn't realize that the Suns had crippling weaknesses in rebounding and interior defense last season is blind. Like I said this could have been addressed with the MLE. Yes this was not that bad a deal but it sure would have been nice to keep Q, add the inside player you're talking about and drafted a player with the #21. And Sarver did make this trade IN PART to save money. The team acknowledged it at the time saying it would give them "cap flexability" down the road.

If he hadn't been a tightwad he could have kept Q and JJ and signed a free agent with the mid level exception. Sure it would have caused cap problems...

It's not just that it would have caused cap problems. It would have made the team virtually unable to make any other roster adjustments for the next several years. How are they supposed to stay competitive that way? I disagree. My question is "How do you stay competitive when you blow up your YOUNG team just after you win 62 games?" And its rediculous to say they couldn't make any moves because they were over the cap. As long as you have young talented players you can make moves.

The main reason we lost to the Spurs was our inexperience.

Wishful thinking. The main reasons the Suns lost to the Spurs are that they let the Spurs have multiple shots on way too many possessions, and that, even with Johnson, their roster was far too short to allow anyone the luxury of playing tough defense and risking foul trouble. Not wishful thinking, FACT. Just imagine the same Suns team as last year with these additions going head to head with the Spurs this year. Amare one year older, leaner, meaner and wiser, Grant, and somebody like Stromile Swift (best I could come up with off the top of my head) and a solid wing player or PG taken with the #21 to add depth. I would bet on that team to beat SA!

As for Sarver being cheap I can't believe I need to rehash all the little things that have come up on this board over the last year.

But in most cases, we've later been proved wrong. Many of us assumed that the Cabarkapa dump was for money reasons, but then the team turned around and used that exception to acquire McCarty, who was better suited to help at that time. The other cases are similar. Besides selling Gortat, can you come up with any tangible examples of cheapness, or is it just your subjective impression? I remember reading many examples but can't remeber specifics. I'll get back to this.

He has admitted so himself. Of course he uses terms like fiscally responsible but he has said he won't "waste" money, he won't exceed the cap etc...Not to mention all the little cost cutting daily operations stuff, complaining that he made the "$10,000 book" for nothing........................

No one likes to blow $10,000, not even Cuban. I'll readily agree that Sarver has been embarrassing at times, and it may well be that he's still getting used to the high-stakes gambles that come with owning a major sports franchise. But I haven't seen any clear evidence that he's cheaper than the middle of the pack. YES! I agree, he is still getting used to the high stakes gambles associated with being the owner of an NBA franchise.

Moreover, I don't think you have either. You're upset that last year's team fell short and you've maintained hope that all they needed was another year to try to build on the magic. That was a longshot at best, but the plan became completely torpedoed when Johnson bolted. Now you need someone to blame, so you've set your sights on Sarver. That anger is misdirected. Name one other young 62 win team that got blown up after the season was over? If you can find one I would bet money that they weren't better the next year.

Last year's team not only overachieved, but it's gone, and it would have been gone no matter who the owner was or how much money he spent. It's just as pointless to pine for the 2004-05 Suns as it would be to try to re-assemble the Barkley/Kevin Johnson team. This is silly. This is what we do. We talk about what we should do, what we should have done, what we have to do, etc..... Isn't that the point?
 

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Chaplin said:
Please give us examples of the "between the lines" disappointment Jerry has had. I'm just curious. I think everybody is disappointed at JJ's lack of loyalty, but what other instances are you referring to?

This is from the other thread, an article published today.

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Still, the older Colangelo has mellowed in the past couple of years. Personal criticisms hardly bother him at all, and to his credit, he won't try to spin the Suns' current roster.

"It will look a little different," Colangelo conceded, knowing the look of last year's team was half the appeal. "But we have a chance to be even better. These are big-time changes made in mid-stream, and if it all works, it'll be quite a story."[/font]

This sounds pretty skeptical to me.
 

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George O'Brien said:
I think Eric is right.

The trade of Q for KT will cost the team more due to a trade kicker and the fact that Q's contract from front loaded. The Suns have used their available cap space (both MLE and LLE)and part of their TE rather than load up on minimum contract guys. They've also gave their coach more money.

As for the luxury tax, it is curious that the Pacers aren't being called "cheap" even though they simply gave away James Jones and are widely reported to be trying to reduce salary. This is the kind of behavior that teams well above the luxury line end up with and the Suns are trying to avoid.

Jones is a nice player but he wasn't a key piece for them. The Suns just letting Hunter walk would have been comparable. The Pacers didn't lose a player the caliber of JJ.
 

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Everyone is comparing last year's team with JJ and Q and this year's team without them and saying they will not be better. I think the Suns can win 55+ games next year, especially if Finley signs with the Suns. One reason I feel that way is Amare. He is still growong and learning. As long as Amare is a Sun, this is going to be a very good team.
 

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The main reason I brought up this arguement is that I think a lot of people have been way to quick to roll over and except the Suns front office spin.


I can't remember an off season where more spinnin' was goin' on than this one and I've been a fan for a LONG time.

If the Suns are in 4th or 5th place in the west come December I won't be the only one complaining about all these off season moves.

And you can write that down.
 

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devilalum said:
And Sarver did make this trade IN PART to save money. The team acknowledged it at the time saying it would give them "cap flexability" down the road.[/color]


Q has a cap hit of 10 million more than Kurt (and 2 years longer) at this point. However, the Suns frontloaded Q's deal as well as gave him a trade kicker. They had to pay 2.5 million cash to trade Q, and I believe the front loading was substantial as well.

The actual difference in cash very small, while they have a player for 2 less seasons. So in other words the move gave them more flexibility, but was more expensive for the team to make. People forget that cash flows and cap flexibility don't mean the same thing.


Name one other young 62 win team that got blown up after the season was over? If you can find one I would bet money that they weren't better the next year.

I can name you another team that blew it all up. In 1999-2000 the Pacers went 56-26. They went to the NBA finals, and lost to the Lakers. In the previous 6 years they had made it to the ECF 4 times.

The following season they had traded away both Dale Davis and Jalen Rose for young, unproven players. They wound up getting Jermaine Oneal, Ron Artest and Brad Miller to build around. Within 2 seasons they were back among the NBA's elite.

Now the Pacers were not that old back then. Davis was about 30 and Rose was about 27. Were they better the next season? Of course not, but the deals most definitely worked out in their favor.


Now, the Suns didn't actually blow anything up. They let their 4th and 5th starters go. They actually got a major upgrade and filled a need when they traded their 5th guy. Losing Joe hurts, but not for a couple years.

The Suns still have kept their core which is the most important part. Not only that but they have used every possible asset to improve their depth to build around the big 3. We even used almost half of the TE right after we got it. Sarver may run some things on the cheap, but at this point it is safe to say that personel isn't one of them.
 

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devilalum said:
Jones is a nice player but he wasn't a key piece for them. The Suns just letting Hunter walk would have been comparable. The Pacers didn't lose a player the caliber of JJ.

The Suns did not just let Hunter walk. They offered him all they could, the LLE. By contrast, the Pacers owned Jone's early Bird rights, so they could have kept him. Keeping Hunter was never really an option once the Suns had used their MLE for Bell.

The Suns did not let JJ walk. They made a sign and trade for valuable considerations. The Pacers got little more than a TE they are unlikely to use. The reason the Suns were able to get the draft picks was because the Suns were quite prepared to match and keep JJ. This wasn't a bluff and the Hawks knew it.
 

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