Suns complete deals with NY and Chicago

[Griffin]

As expected, the Suns completed two sign-and-trade deals with NY and Chicago today.

The Phoenix Suns completed a sign-and-trade deal today with the New York Knicks involving Amar'e Stoudemire and received a $16.5 million trade exception.

The Knicks also included a conditional second-round pick that the Suns might not ever receive because of the qualifiers attached.

The Suns also completed a sign-and-trade deal with the Bulls for Hakim Warrick, giving Chicago the Suns' second-round pick in 2011. Warrick has signed a four-year contract for $18 million with $2 million of it in incentive bonuses.

Phoenix has a year to use the exception, which allows the Suns to make a trade to acquire a player making near or less than the $16.5 million amount without having to lose a Suns player in the deal.

New York benefited in the deal by having Phoenix first sign Stoudemire to the five-year, $99.7 million deal. The Suns were the only team that could give Stoudemire 10.5 percent raises, making his first-year salary almost $800,000 less to give New York more salary cap room for free-agency signings.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...icks-complete-sign-trade-deal-stoudemire.html

Interesting that we send Chicago an unconditional second-round pick for their troubles but we receive only a conditional second-rounder from NY that the Suns likely will never see.

 

[devilalum]

Given the fact that the Suns gain nothing financially by doing this and had to give up next years #2 you'd hope they intend to actually use the exception.

 

[Yuma]

Given the fact that the Suns gain nothing financially by doing this and had to give up next years #2 you'd hope they intend to actually use the exception.

To reach the league minimum 13 players we have to sign someone. I think the current count is 10 on our roster because we haven't signed our two rookies yet. So I am thinking we have to get 1 player from somewhere. I am torn, if we use the exception, that will eat cap space we are about to gain next year. If we hold the line this year, or trade for a player with an expiring contract, we could be players in the Mello market next year.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I think Reynolds will make the roster, so that's one more.

 

[Griffin]

Given the fact that the Suns gain nothing financially by doing this and had to give up next years #2 you'd hope they intend to actually use the exception.

Exactly. Since the Suns could have signed Warrick using their cap space if they hadn't acquired the TPE, essentially the TPE had cost us a second-round pick. If we don't use the rest of the TPE, it means we have given away the pick for nothing.

 

[carey]

If we don't use the rest of the TPE, it means we have given away the pick for nothing.

Which would surprise who?

All joking aside, I do hope they use it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Interesting that we send Chicago an unconditional second-round pick for their troubles but we receive only a conditional second-rounder from NY that the Suns likely will never see.

NY had no incentive to give up anything more. They were probably content with just signing Amare as a FA. From the Chicago perspective they were willing to let AW walk outright. Again, the Suns needed the sign and trade so Chicago had the bargaining power in that deal as well.

Now technically letting Amare walk has cost us any chance at a deep playoff run, not really cleared up any cap space (with the signing of Frye/Warrick) and now cost us a future 2nd round pick. A 2nd round pick that we need IMO to reload as this teams moves on.

 

[Mainstreet]

Exactly. Since the Suns could have signed Warrick using their cap space if they hadn't acquired the TPE, essentially the TPE had cost us a second-round pick. If we don't use the rest of the TPE, it means we have given away the pick for nothing.

It doesn't say in the article the exact words that the Suns used part of the TPE on Warrick but why else would they send the Bulls a second round pick. I guess my question is, did the Suns benefit by using the TPE on Warrick. I thought they would have 4M available if they had just signed Warrick outright as a FA. Could the Suns have completed the sign and trade without Chicago and why did it benefit the Suns using Chicago.

Here is a quote that seems perplexing to me.

Phoenix has a year to use the exception, which allows the Suns to make a trade to acquire a player making near or less than the $16.5 million amount without having to lose a Suns player in the deal.

The Suns would only have 12.5M to sign another player.

 

[Griffin]

I guess my question is, did the Suns benefit by using the TPE on Warrick. I thought they would have 4M available if they had just signed Warrick outright as a FA. Could the Suns have completed the sign and trade without Chicago and why did it benefit the Suns using Chicago.

It didn't benefit the Suns to use Chicago. They were forced to go that route because they chose to S&T Amare and accepted the TPE that was created in that deal. They could have let Amare walk and then sign Warrick directly and still have $4M left to sign someone else. Now they don't have the $4M anymore, but they do have $12.5M left on the TPE to trade for someone.

 

[devilalum]

So are the Suns targeting anybody specifically or are they in wait and see mode?

 

[Griffin]

To put it in perspective, there are clearly advantages and disadvantages to going either route. The Suns chose the second option:

If Amare walked:

• $13M cap space initially available but no exceptions
• Sign Warrick directly using available cap space
• Re-sign Frye using available cap space
• Have $4M cap space left this summer to sign free agents

Amare S&T:

• No cap space but MLE and $16.5M TPE available
• Sign Warrick via Chicago S&T using part of TPE (cost us 2011 second round draft pick)
• Re-sign Frye using MLE
• Have $12.5M TPE left over to trade for players or do S&T (will likely cost us more draft picks)

 

[Mainstreet]

It didn't benefit the Suns to use Chicago. They were forced to go that route because they chose to S&T Amare and accepted the TPE that was created in that deal. They could have let Amare walk and then sign Warrick directly and still have $4M left to sign someone else. Now they don't have the $4M anymore, but they do have $12.5M left on the TPE to trade for someone.

Couldn't NY have just sent the Suns a very conditional second round pick for Amare and the Suns got the TPE without a third party. I'm still missing something here. Warrick could have been signed as a FA. What makes signing Warrick under the TPE so attractive.

I just want to get it right.

 

[Griffin]

Warrick could have been signed as a FA. What makes signing Warrick under the TPE so attractive.

Once the Suns made the Amare deal, they had no cap space to sign Warrick as a FA. The TPE counts against the cap and teams can use either salary cap or cap exceptions but not both.

 

[Mainstreet]

Once the Suns made the Amare deal, they had no cap space to sign Warrick as a FA. The TPE counts against the cap and teams can use either salary cap or cap exceptions but not both.

Thanks for being on top of it.

I'm watching the Suns in summer league. I would have missed it except for your reminder on the summer lead thread.

 

[az jam]

We should be happy that the Suns only gave up a 2nd round pick not a 1st rounder to sign Warrick.

 

[Griffin]

Thanks for being on top of it.

I'm watching the Suns in summer league. I would have missed it except for your reminder on the summer lead thread.

No problem, glad I could help

 

[cly2tw]

It didn't benefit the Suns to use Chicago. They were forced to go that route because they chose to S&T Amare and accepted the TPE that was created in that deal. They could have let Amare walk and then sign Warrick directly and still have $4M left to sign someone else. Now they don't have the $4M anymore, but they do have $12.5M left on the TPE to trade for someone.

I believe you could always use your cap to sign FA as long as you have it. This trade merely adds the option of having a 12.5m TE plus the chance of signing a FA to the LLE, in place of using the 4m remaining cap. The hope is to use the TE to facilitate trades for others for a 1st rounder or two. Or at the trading deadline, if Frye/Warrick were indeed much better than Amare and we were about to contend like the past season, we might get someone like Iggy dumped on us for the PO run.

 

[Griffin]

I believe you could always use your cap to sign FA as long as you have it. This trade merely adds the option of having a 12.5m TE plus the chance of signing a FA to the LLE, in place of using the 4m remaining cap.

Yes, as long as you have cap space, but the Suns were never actually under the cap this summer, because they traded Amare (who counted against the cap until he was traded) for a $16.5M TPE which also counts against the cap. To get under the cap, the Suns would either have had to waive Amare's rights (let him walk) or decline the TPE received (which would make the trade pointless). As long as the Suns hold the TPE (or what's left of it after trading for Warrick) the Suns are over the salary cap and thus cannot sign free agents directly (other than veteran minimums and Amundson with his early bird rights).

Teams can never use both available cap space and cap exceptions, because exceptions count against the cap, reducing the available cap space. And if all the exceptions a team could potentially receive amount to less than their available cap space, then the team doesn't even receive them at all.

 

[Folster]

A trade exception and a second round pick...

Remember when we would poo poo offers of Noah, and Tyrus Thomas for Stoudemire.

 

[tobiazz]

A trade exception and a second round pick...

Remember when we would poo poo offers of Noah, and Tyrus Thomas for Stoudemire.

Yes, and before that we would poo poo offers of Garnett for Stoudemire.

♪ Lowered Expectations ♫

 

[overseascardfan]

Now I'm pissed. CLE got a total of 4 picks from MIA in the S&T for Lebron James, plus a $16M TPE. All we could get is a 2nd rounder we might not get from a guy (D'Antoni) who doesn't like draft picks, Sarver needs to be taken out of power.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Now I'm pissed. CLE got a total of 4 picks from MIA in the S&T for Lebron James, plus a $16M TPE. All we could get is a 2nd rounder we might not get from a guy (D'Antoni) who doesn't like draft picks, Sarver needs to be taken out of power.

As much as I hate Sarver, he had no leverage to demand any more. The league probably demanded MIA give Cleveland something based upon the scope of the loss and the fact that they had offered LeBron everything they they legally could.

Sarver did not retain Amare because he was unwilling to take the risk, just like Dallas did with Steve. I would have probably given Amare the money. There are just not that many other players of similar quality that would be attainable. It is a horrible risk, but the other options are just too limited.

 

[cly2tw]

Now I'm pissed. CLE got a total of 4 picks from MIA in the S&T for Lebron James, plus a $16M TPE. All we could get is a 2nd rounder we might not get from a guy (D'Antoni) who doesn't like draft picks, Sarver needs to be taken out of power.

Because CLE owner has to be compensated for feeling insulted by LBJ leaving, while our owner plus the whole fan base felt relieved by Amare gone at that price. Sarver doesn't deserve more compensation than that.

 

[devilalum]

Because CLE owner has to be compensated for feeling insulted by LBJ leaving, while our owner plus the whole fan base felt relieved by Amare gone at that price. Sarver doesn't deserve more compensation than that.

New York wasn't as desperate to do the sign and trade as Miami was. New York could have much more easily walked away and just signed Amare outright.

 

[cly2tw]

New York wasn't as desperate to do the sign and trade as Miami was. New York could have much more easily walked away and just signed Amare outright.

I know. In fact, Donnie Walsh was quoted somewhere saying that they did the sign and trade as favor for Amare who didn't like to leave Phoenix without them getting anything. So, Amare really wanted to stay but had to leave just like Nash did before him 6 years ago.