The 3-4 WILB

Duckjake

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What does an NFL team look for in a player to fit the 3-4 WILB? Very few if any college guys have ever played the position. So how do scouts appraise the guys eligible for the draft.

Dansby was probably the tallest WILB in the NFL. Most of the others are 6'1"-6'2" and 240. So why not take a "hybrid" DE/olb like a Kindle or Misi and make him a WILB? Guys who are Dansby's size and run 4.6-4.7 40s. Seems to me that you would want to have a taller, heavier guy covering the TEs and RBs and flowing to the running lanes.

Why wouldn't a guy like Derrick Johnson,a guy who ran a 4.44 forty in High School fit the bill?

Thoughts?
 

Crazy Canuck

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What does an NFL team look for in a player to fit the 3-4 WILB? Very few if any college guys have ever played the position. So how do scouts appraise the guys eligible for the draft.

Dansby was probably the tallest WILB in the NFL. Most of the others are 6'1"-6'2" and 240. So why not take a "hybrid" DE/olb like a Kindle or Misi and make him a WILB? Guys who are Dansby's size and run 4.6-4.7 40s. Seems to me that you would want to have a taller, heavier guy covering the TEs and RBs and flowing to the running lanes.

Why wouldn't a guy like Derrick Johnson,a guy who ran a 4.44 forty in High School fit the bill?

Thoughts?

Well, for one thing Dansby was an outside 4-3 LB who moved inside in a 3-4.

His basic education was as a linebacker, not a DE.

Big learning curve for DE's in College to ILB in the Pros, I would imagine.
 

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Good topic.

In general the taller a player the less change of direction skills they have. Finding a player with Dansby's height and great COD skills is tough and one of the reasons the Dolphins paid him sooo much money.

If we could get a top notch NT then we could get away with more athletic (faster/quicker) ILBers and wouldn't need a thumper.

I mentioned in another thread that Haggans did play some ILBer with the Steelers. I wonder if he still has that ability. He should be big enough to fill in for Hayes if he goes down. If Porter plays at his established level and Cody or Baggs or... step up then maybe Haggans could take over as a starter at one of the ILB spots.
 

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What does an NFL team look for in a player to fit the 3-4 WILB? Very few if any college guys have ever played the position. So how do scouts appraise the guys eligible for the draft.

Dansby was probably the tallest WILB in the NFL. Most of the others are 6'1"-6'2" and 240. So why not take a "hybrid" DE/olb like a Kindle or Misi and make him a WILB? Guys who are Dansby's size and run 4.6-4.7 40s. Seems to me that you would want to have a taller, heavier guy covering the TEs and RBs and flowing to the running lanes.

Why wouldn't a guy like Derrick Johnson,a guy who ran a 4.44 forty in High School fit the bill?

Thoughts?

Not so much Misi--just because we need someone to step in in the first quarter of the season, and all he's played (outside of a half-dozen plays in the Senior Bowl) has been a defensive end.

But I'm starting to warm to Kindle as a WILB. He can bring the pass rush ability that people have complained that Dansby was lacking, and he has experience at the position already. He gives the Cards a lot of positional flexibility, as well. I wouldn't at all be against drafting him in the first if Weatherspoon and McClain are both off the board.

I like Derrick Johnson, as well. Had the uncapped year not come into being, I think he would have been a target of the Cards in free agency. I think that if the Cards don't find a solution to the WILB problem this season (or if they begin to like Kindle more as a long-term replacement for Clark Haggans), then he could well be the Cards' primary free agent target next offseason. He's a softer version of Karlos Dansby, IMO, but he'd be much better than a guy like Jamar Chaney, whom many have been offering up as a good replacement. Johnson is smooth in coverage, but doesn't offer much when asked to work in the phone booth or work against the run.

The thing that people aren't really understanding about losing Dansby is how much pressure it's going to put on our defensive secondary--especially Adrian Wilson. Dansby was--as you say--unusually adept in coverage, especially considering his size. What that allowed the Cards to do was use Adrian Wilson as essentially the WILB and then move Dansby into a safety position. That's how the Cards confused Brett Favre so much in the Vikings game last year.

But now if we end up with an ILB like McClain, we're essentially working with two guys who are minuses in pass coverage (in Hayes case minus-minus). That's going to force Wilson and/or Rhodes to pay extra attention to the middle interior/exterior zones, and leave the team open for the big play in the seams from tight ends especially (we saw last season how frequently Wilson was abused by TEs--even a one-legged Jeremy Shockey).

Because the safeties are going to be under extra pressure in the middle of the field, the cornerbacks are going to have to play more off-man coverage and cover-4 rather than the press defense packages that many people here are excited about when we brought Donnie Henderson in. I don't worry about that as much as others, because that's how Pittsburgh tends to run it's pressure packages, only with more Cover-3 because Polamaulu (sp) has the range to cover the "creep" zone all by himself. Wilson doesn't have that range or the instincts.

One reason I think we tried so hard to keep Rolle is that Rolle probably could've patrolled that area in our 3-safety packages, but we'll likely see fewer of those now. OR we could see just as much--if not more--because we're going to have to pull one of our ILBs and have a passing package where essentially Lenon and Wilson are the linebackers and Rhodes and Ware/Johnson are playing behind them.
 
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Duckjake

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Well, for one thing Dansby was an outside 4-3 LB who moved inside in a 3-4.

His basic education was as a linebacker, not a DE.

Big learning curve for DE's in College to ILB in the Pros, I would imagine.

Why would it be that much harder than making the transition from College DE to NFL OLB?
 
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Duckjake

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What that allowed the Cards to do was use Adrian Wilson as essentially the WILB and then move Dansby into a safety position. That's how the Cards confused Brett Favre so much in the Vikings game last year.

Great take. Every time I watched replays of the Cards games, in passing situations, Dansby would either drop back just like a DB or take off after a RB in the flat. He should have worn #28 instead of #58.

Hmmm... Maybe Rhodes was signed to replace Dansby. :D
 

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Not so much Misi--just because we need someone to step in in the first quarter of the season, and all he's played (outside of a half-dozen plays in the Senior Bowl) has been a defensive end.

But I'm starting to warm to Kindle as a WILB. He can bring the pass rush ability that people have complained that Dansby was lacking, and he has experience at the position already. He gives the Cards a lot of positional flexibility, as well. I wouldn't at all be against drafting him in the first if Weatherspoon and McClain are both off the board.

I like Derrick Johnson, as well. Had the uncapped year not come into being, I think he would have been a target of the Cards in free agency. I think that if the Cards don't find a solution to the WILB problem this season (or if they begin to like Kindle more as a long-term replacement for Clark Haggans), then he could well be the Cards' primary free agent target next offseason. He's a softer version of Karlos Dansby, IMO, but he'd be much better than a guy like Jamar Chaney, whom many have been offering up as a good replacement. Johnson is smooth in coverage, but doesn't offer much when asked to work in the phone booth or work against the run.

The thing that people aren't really understanding about losing Dansby is how much pressure it's going to put on our defensive secondary--especially Adrian Wilson. Dansby was--as you say--unusually adept in coverage, especially considering his size. What that allowed the Cards to do was use Adrian Wilson as essentially the WILB and then move Dansby into a safety position. That's how the Cards confused Brett Favre so much in the Vikings game last year.

But now if we end up with an ILB like McClain, we're essentially working with two guys who are minuses in pass coverage (in Hayes case minus-minus). That's going to force Wilson and/or Rhodes to pay extra attention to the middle interior/exterior zones, and leave the team open for the big play in the seams from tight ends especially (we saw last season how frequently Wilson was abused by TEs--even a one-legged Jeremy Shockey).

Because the safeties are going to be under extra pressure in the middle of the field, the cornerbacks are going to have to play more off-man coverage and cover-4 rather than the press defense packages that many people here are excited about when we brought Donnie Henderson in. I don't worry about that as much as others, because that's how Pittsburgh tends to run it's pressure packages, only with more Cover-3 because Polamaulu (sp) has the range to cover the "creep" zone all by himself. Wilson doesn't have that range or the instincts.

One reason I think we tried so hard to keep Rolle is that Rolle probably could've patrolled that area in our 3-safety packages, but we'll likely see fewer of those now. OR we could see just as much--if not more--because we're going to have to pull one of our ILBs and have a passing package where essentially Lenon and Wilson are the linebackers and Rhodes and Ware/Johnson are playing behind them.

I'd love to draft Kindle, but don't think he'll be there at 26. I also agree if McClain falls he's probably better suited to replace Hayes, maybe WILB this year, but long term SILB, especially with Hayes back problems.
 

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Good topic.

In general the taller a player the less change of direction skills they have. Finding a player with Dansby's height and great COD skills is tough and one of the reasons the Dolphins paid him sooo much money.

If we could get a top notch NT then we could get away with more athletic (faster/quicker) ILBers and wouldn't need a thumper.

I mentioned in another thread that Haggans did play some ILBer with the Steelers. I wonder if he still has that ability. He should be big enough to fill in for Hayes if he goes down. If Porter plays at his established level and Cody or Baggs or... step up then maybe Haggans could take over as a starter at one of the ILB spots.

I have yet to see Paris Lennon play and we may be pleasantly surprised that he may be able to hold down the position, next to the thumper SILB (Hayes or ?)

I also though that since Haggins could be slowing down somewhat , that he'd be a capable WILB. But most here want him to stay on the strong side where he's still very effective.
 

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Good thread... and I have nothing else to offer above what has already been stated here, other than to say that this specific issue, as well as the collateral damage it will cause in the secondary, is going to create a massive headache for this defense. I hope our offense is able to chew up a ton of clock this year as keeping our defense off the field will be critical!
 

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Size wise teams look for a guy around 6'3" around 250.
The problem with a guy like Johnson isn't a measurable problem, it's an ability problem.
It seems that his lack of physicality hurts his production. A knock on him since his own draft.
I've heard that being an ILB on a 3-4 requires toughness from both Will and Sam because there's one less big body to occupy space.
 

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I always considered Johnson to be a rush LB in a 3-4 over any other LB position. He was a beast in college rushing the passer and stripping the ball.
 

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Good thread... and I have nothing else to offer above what has already been stated here, other than to say that this specific issue, as well as the collateral damage it will cause in the secondary, is going to create a massive headache for this defense. I hope our offense is able to chew up a ton of clock this year as keeping our defense off the field will be critical!

I don't think it will cause collateral damage to the secondary. Part of the reason that Dansby dropped back further then most WILB and more often was to make up for the lack of coverage ability from Rolle and Wilson Combined. Rhodes is far the better coverage safety then Rolle was, thus less of a need to drop back the WILB as far or as often as we saw last year or the year before that.

Also if the Cards continue their route of how they handle rookies. I don't think any rookie WILB, even a first rounder will play all 3 downs to start with. Maybe play the 1st and 2nd downs, letting Lenon take on the 3rd down roll until the rookie gains better understanding of the much more complicated and harder to adjust to passing schemes.
 
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I don't think it will cause collateral damage to the secondary. Part of the reason that Dansby dropped back further then most WILB and more often was to make up for the lack of coverage ability from Rolle and Wilson Combined. Rhodes is far the better coverage safety then Rolle was, thus less of a need to drop back the WILB as far or as often as we saw last year or the year before that.

Well, you seem to have a lot more faith in the coverage ability of Rhodes and Wilson than do I... I think Rhodes is going to have his hands full covering the gaps left by McFadden or whomever plays opposite DRC. And while I will always love Adrian, I'm not sure if he can still cover on a consistent basis. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that his highest and best use is play up at the line, stuffing the run and pressuring the QB. When Adrian is dropping back, that normally translates into the opposing QB having tons of time to pick our defense a part...
 

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Also if the Cards continue their route of how they handle rookies. I don't think any rookie WILB, even a first rounder will play all 3 downs to start with. Maybe play the 1st and 2nd downs, letting Lenon take on the 3rd down roll until the rookie gains better understanding of the much more complicated and harder to adjust to passing schemes.

Agreed...
 

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Well, for one thing Dansby was an outside 4-3 LB who moved inside in a 3-4.

His basic education was as a linebacker, not a DE.

Big learning curve for DE's in College to ILB in the Pros, I would imagine.

I would agree with this, there are too many good options for WILB in the draft...guys that can step in early and be effective. I don't think it would be worth it to move a guy like Kindle, who could potentially be an excellent 3-4 pass rusher, to WILB where he hasn't been playing and would have far less impact than he would as an OLB.
 
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Duckjake

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More varied coverage requirements at ILB than OLB in 3-4.

That still doesn't preclude a guy from making the transition as far as I'm concerned. College guys have more varied requirements at every position in the NFL from what they had in College.

Why wouldn't you want to change the position in the NFL from being populated by 6'1" 235lb guys to 6'4" 250lb guys who are almost if not just as quick.

For me I want my 3-4 Wilb to be able to race, good 20 or 40 time, to the football on run plays and to be athletic enough to get out and cover RBs and TEs and slot WRs on occasion on the passing downs.

Another question I have is what is a "rush" outside linebacker? I always thought that the 3-4 was designed to confuse the offense as to where the pass rush was coming. But what I see all the time is that the ROLB in a 3-4 is supposed to be the pass rusher far more so than the LOLB.
 

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That still doesn't preclude a guy from making the transition as far as I'm concerned. College guys have more varied requirements at every position in the NFL from what they had in College.

Why wouldn't you want to change the position in the NFL from being populated by 6'1" 235lb guys to 6'4" 250lb guys who are almost if not just as quick.

For me I want my 3-4 Wilb to be able to race, good 20 or 40 time, to the football on run plays and to be athletic enough to get out and cover RBs and TEs and slot WRs on occasion on the passing downs.

Another question I have is what is a "rush" outside linebacker? I always thought that the 3-4 was designed to confuse the offense as to where the pass rush was coming. But what I see all the time is that the ROLB in a 3-4 is supposed to be the pass rusher far more so than the LOLB.

How many guys can you think of that have successfully made the transition from college DE to 3-4 ILB? It is a completely different job than rushing the passer every down.
 

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That still doesn't preclude a guy from making the transition as far as I'm concerned. College guys have more varied requirements at every position in the NFL from what they had in College.

Why wouldn't you want to change the position in the NFL from being populated by 6'1" 235lb guys to 6'4" 250lb guys who are almost if not just as quick.

For me I want my 3-4 Wilb to be able to race, good 20 or 40 time, to the football on run plays and to be athletic enough to get out and cover RBs and TEs and slot WRs on occasion on the passing downs.

That's because the 6'0 ILBs are usually thick like Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis and play with better leverage than the taller ILBs. Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis are adept at taking on blocks from the FB and Gs whilst tall, lean guys like Dansby are not. You don't often see tall and thick players who are quick enough to cover and play with good leverage. These kind of freaks don't come often.

I want my ILBs to be the above like Willis and Lewis. It is the same reason why the Jets scraped Vilma for Harris.

Kindle doesn't strike me as a guy who can hold up against the run on the inside unless he has a mammoth dline in front of him.
 
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kerouac9

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Why would it be that much harder than making the transition from College DE to NFL OLB?

Because college DEs have been doing one thing since they were 13 years old: rush the passer. They're pretty good at it, if they're drafted 26th overall. They can pursue the run play on the backside if they're working behind the line of scrimmage, but for the most part that's not what they want to be doing.

But college LBs have been reading running backs' torsos for three or four years, and learning how guys look when they're going into their break on a flat route or a circle route. They have football instincts honed from maybe a half-decade worth of film study figuring out where a run play is going to go from the center's drop step. They've seen so many play-actions and pump fakes that while they'll still get juked by Peyton Manning's run show, they're not going to get fooled by Bruce Gradkowski's.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for a college DE to make the transition to NFL WILB. But it takes two years for a top-shelf DE like LaMarr Woodley to transition to NFL OLB. It probably takes three or four to make the move inside.

You have the time to do that with fourth- and fifth-round picks. But first-round draft picks need to be playing a major role by week 4 if they're not a quarterback. Second round picks better be contributing by the playoff push in week 12.
 

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I'd love to draft Kindle, but don't think he'll be there at 26. I also agree if McClain falls he's probably better suited to replace Hayes, maybe WILB this year, but long term SILB, especially with Hayes back problems.
I think there's a decent chance either mclain, weatherspoon or kindle is available at 26 considering all of the olb/de types that are projected as potential first rounders.
 

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Great take. Every time I watched replays of the Cards games, in passing situations, Dansby would either drop back just like a DB or take off after a RB in the flat. He should have worn #28 instead of #58.

Hmmm... Maybe Rhodes was signed to replace Dansby. :D

This is why I am warming up to Daryl Washington despite his size. As weak as we are at ILB, I believe that we have even less depth at nickel linebacker. I can't see one player on our roster that has the athleticism to drop in the deep middle in a cover 2. I could handle a little less production from our ILB in the running game, if it allows us to improve both our NT productivity, as well as our nickel coverage.
 

Chopper0080

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I don't think it will cause collateral damage to the secondary. Part of the reason that Dansby dropped back further then most WILB and more often was to make up for the lack of coverage ability from Rolle and Wilson Combined. Rhodes is far the better coverage safety then Rolle was, thus less of a need to drop back the WILB as far or as often as we saw last year or the year before that.

Also if the Cards continue their route of how they handle rookies. I don't think any rookie WILB, even a first rounder will play all 3 downs to start with. Maybe play the 1st and 2nd downs, letting Lenon take on the 3rd down roll until the rookie gains better understanding of the much more complicated and harder to adjust to passing schemes.

Another reason to like Daryl Washington as he played on a predominantly nickel scheme all through college. Until Washington develops physically, we could have Lenon take the 3-4 base, and Washington could cut his teeth in the nickel packages.
 

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Jake-----I want to thank you for starting this fantastic thread. And K-9, you have taught me more about the LB position in this thread, than I had accrued throughout my entire lifetime watching and playing football. I had always been of the opinion that LBs were either cover guys or thumpers. I just assumed that you could move them around like they all possessed the traits to do one job or the other.

Now, I can see that they are more like chess pieces, each with the ability to make certain moves, but not necessarily be successful in transitioning to another slot, where the moves are different. It was astounding to me, to see just how much time and effort, (say a rush LB), puts into body recognition of the backs and TE's or slot receivers, and QBs.

I was not aware that Haggans played WILB earlier in his career, and I certainly hope that he can still do so, as it might be paramount that he be able to do so successfully. At least that would provide a comfort factor that is missing from our inside backer position right now, (not knowing how well Lenon will fit in, or how strong Hayes' back will be). I know that I would feel very good about our chances for success if Haggans could still bring skill to the ILB positions. We seem to have more chance for success in the draft at finding OLBs than ILBs.

Thanks again fellas for the great thread. Keep up the good stuff.
 
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