Thoughts on the draft as a whole

[Chopper0080]

So first off, I think that whoever said that the Cardinals missed out on some guys because they were taken right before they were going to take them, was right on. I believe Keim will look back at this draft and see where a little more aggression would have probably netted them a bit better haul. Keim will learn that while it is nice to stockpile picks, the draft is truely about drafting players. A 4th round pick is nice, but if you can get a player you want by moving up a couple spots, sometimes it is worth it.

Secondly, this draft makes me believe Keim and Arians have a very clear understanding of each other. This draft was totally tailored to what Arians wants in players. Whether we like it or not, Keim drafting players that fit Arians' system is nothing other than a good thing.

We also drafted for our division. Strength, speed and overall athletes is what we drafted. In the toughest division in football, we drafted tough players.

1-Deone Bucannon - S
*Very physical playmaker who has great timed speed. I believe his coverage issues are less athletic and more technique related in nature. This is one of the few S in this class that can take down Lynch, Gore and Stacy.

2-Troy Niklas - TE
*Very physical blocker who needs work in the passing game. Not a vertical threat but a legitimate blocker who will allow us to go more 3 WR sets and will be a red zone mismatch. Vs the very physical 49er and Rams fronts, Niklas will give us a big help.

3-Kareem Martin - OLB/DE
*Sounds like the Cards want him to play OLB which makes me like the pick less. What he does offer is a huge physical presence on the edge. I wish we added a edge player who has some quickness and burst, but we just didn't.

3-John Brown - WR
*A perfect scheme fit who adds the big play ability this offense lacks. Almost exact same size as TY Hilton and very similar skill set. Arians is going to feature him and I believe Brown will make Ted Ginn expendable after this year.

4-Logan Thomas - QB
*So, I didn't like going QB in this draft, much less in the 4th round. That being said, I'm happy the guy we drafted was Logan Thomas. If I want to draft a late round QB who I'm going to develop, I want a QB who has the tools to be special and the work ethic to want to develop. Thomas has both of these. He is a big, physical QB who can survive in the West and has enough athleticism to avoid a rush. I don't know if his issues are correctable, but I think if anyone can fix it, it is our staff.

5-Ed Stinson - DE
*Physical DE who is strong at point of attack and has a little rush ability. I am good with it. He knows how to work coming out of Alabama, and played in the most physical division in college football. Maybe he is only a sub player, but that isn't terrible.

6-some guy
*I have no idea about this prospect though he does offer special teams ability. IMO, there are worse things than drafting the Justin Bethel's of the draft in the later rounds.


All in all, I personally wanted more out of this draft but I still feel the Cards did a decent job. I believe the Cards missed the boat on the dynamic edge rushers and on a decent CB class. However, the Cards did add legitimate starting threats at S and TE which we haven't had in years (in the case of TE, in recent history). They also added a legitimate burner which we have had in recent memory either. Martin and Thomas are both really big development players who have significant physical skills but both have not lived up to their potential. Stinson is a rotational player who is limited but should stick on the roster.

That is all I have for now. I am still disappointed that Keim has yet to show he can add a legitimate edge rusher and we will see on the QB. Until he does, I will have my reservations about the future of our team. There is just only so far a team can go without being able to add a premier QB or a legitimate edge rush.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Where was the edge rusher you reference?

 

[Vermont Maverick]

There's a lot of talk about an edge rusher, and it would be nice to get one. But they are not too easy to come by. We have 2 decent OLBs right now in Abraham (a great edge rusher, though older) and Shaughnessy. Also there is Acho coming back and Okafor. Who was there to take in this draft? Maybe we could have taken Dee Ford, but he seems to have issues.

There was Attaochu or however you spell his name, but still no guarantee. He went #50.

As far as "Keim learning to move up', you live by the sword and die by the sword. Moving down netted us Ellington and Watford. We know about Ellington, let's see about Watford - he looked good against 3rd stringers in the preseason at least. And who did we lose that was picked just before us? And how do we know the Cards wanted any of them.

I'm not completely sold on this draft, but it doesn't have to do with maneuvering. We really seemed to target specific guys, ie. we drafted for need, which I think is a losing proposition. Since we seem to think we can really compete, I might be okay with it this year, but this type of picking over the years will kill us. The 49ers killed this draft. They just took the best players when they dropped. We reached for need. It seems like we took everybody a half a round too early for fear we would lose our targets. I like the players we took, but we left value on the board. Time will tell here. You listen to the azcardinals videos and Keim says he was looking at the board before the draft and pointed to Niklas and said he thought that would be the pick in the second. It's clear they wanted Bucannon, and were willing to trade only so far down for fear of losing him. They didn't want to trade to the second for that reason. Arians specifically talked about SS and TE in the predraft video, and Keim talkied about trading down. That's targeting, and I'm not a big fan of that. Same thing with Logan Thomas. With the QB, I'm actually ok with that. If you have a guy you like, you can't hope they will be there another round - but only with the QB. And this was a year that we really didn't have any big needs, supposedly.

On the positive side, both DLs seemed like good value there. When I read they were looking at the WR as a special teamer, I felt a lot better. Those guys are important in the later rounds, as you say - Justin Bethel. Also, given that they targeted Bucannon, at least they recognized that they could trade down and pick up an extra pick. We'll see if Brown turns into TY Hilton, which is obviously the hope.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

Where was the edge rusher you reference?

You beat me to it, I was writing my book.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I'm not completely sold on this draft, but it doesn't have to do with maneuvering. We really seemed to target specific guys, ie. we drafted for need, which I think is a losing proposition.

I posted a link to the draft presser and SK and BA tell why they drafted these players. Some of them they did target and would not have picked some of the players we all wanted even if they were there.

 

[MrYeahBut]

While a hard hitting safety is great fun to watch and from what I've looked at since the pick I feel confident Buccanon can do just that, Niklas is the player I'm excited to watch develop. No, I'm not expecting a Jimmy Graham or VD but it would be great for me if he were to be as good as Witten or Bennett.



.

 

[az jam]

Good analysis Chopper, however, I just can't get positive at all on Logan Thomas. He has no touch and you can't teach accuracy. He has regressed not improved since his sophomore year. I watched him throughout the Senior Bowl week and game, he was terrible. He reminds me of a poor version of Derick Anderson.

I really hope I am wrong but feel we wasted a 4th round pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

Keim said he wanted to move around more in the draft but he was unable to find willing partners to do so. It seems the Cardinals played the hand that was dealt them. The more I think about their draft, the more I like it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Good OP. Spot on IMO.

 

[MWOOD92]

Probably the most frustrating draft I've ever watched...

 

[cardncubfan]

There's a lot of talk about an edge rusher, and it would be nice to get one. But they are not too easy to come by. We have 2 decent OLBs right now in Abraham (a great edge rusher, though older) and Shaughnessy. Also there is Acho coming back and Okafor. Who was there to take in this draft? Maybe we could have taken Dee Ford, but he seems to have issues.

There was Attaochu or however you spell his name, but still no guarantee. He went #50.

As far as "Keim learning to move up', you live by the sword and die by the sword. Moving down netted us Ellington and Watford. We know about Ellington, let's see about Watford - he looked good against 3rd stringers in the preseason at least. And who did we lose that was picked just before us? And how do we know the Cards wanted any of them.

I'm not completely sold on this draft, but it doesn't have to do with maneuvering. We really seemed to target specific guys, ie. we drafted for need, which I think is a losing proposition. Since we seem to think we can really compete, I might be okay with it this year, but this type of picking over the years will kill us. The 49ers killed this draft. They just took the best players when they dropped. We reached for need. It seems like we took everybody a half a round too early for fear we would lose our targets. I like the players we took, but we left value on the board. Time will tell here. You listen to the azcardinals videos and Keim says he was looking at the board before the draft and pointed to Niklas and said he thought that would be the pick in the second. It's clear they wanted Bucannon, and were willing to trade only so far down for fear of losing him. They didn't want to trade to the second for that reason. Arians specifically talked about SS and TE in the predraft video, and Keim talkied about trading down. That's targeting, and I'm not a big fan of that. Same thing with Logan Thomas. With the QB, I'm actually ok with that. If you have a guy you like, you can't hope they will be there another round - but only with the QB. And this was a year that we really didn't have any big needs, supposedly.

On the positive side, both DLs seemed like good value there. When I read they were looking at the WR as a special teamer, I felt a lot better. Those guys are important in the later rounds, as you say - Justin Bethel. Also, given that they targeted Bucannon, at least they recognized that they could trade down and pick up an extra pick. We'll see if Brown turns into TY Hilton, which is obviously the hope.

Seen video earlier of Attaochu punching Logan Thomas in a game where he was struggling to take him down. Not really the type of player you want when he loses it in game & can't control his emotions.

 

[Chopper0080]

Where was the edge rusher you reference?

referenced in what way? That we was taken before us? That we missed on?

Dee Ford
Anthony Barr
Marcus Smith
Demarcus Lawrence
Jeremiah Attaochu

...

I understand why we didn't move up for one of them but that doesn't mean it wasn't disappointing to not have gotten one. Now, we are putting ourselves in a tough spot for next year. Palmer is a FA. Abraham is a FA. Dockett will have a huge cap number. Fitzgerald will have a huge cap number. Peterson will need an extension. A bunch of premium positions that we don't have much on our roster in the way of replacing. An edge rusher would have made that list a bit shorter.

 

[Chopper0080]

Seen video earlier of Attaochu punching Logan Thomas in a game where he was struggling to take him down. Not really the type of player you want when he loses it in game & can't control his emotions.

Football in an intense sport that is played with a bunch of emotion. It is better to have to reign in guys than have to get them to amp it up. It doesn't bug me when a defensive player gets a little too fired up.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Keim said he wanted to move around more in the draft but he was unable to find willing partners to do so. It seems the Cardinals played the hand that was dealt them. The more I think about their draft, the more I like it.

There is a little luck involved with the draft... that is, a team certainly doesn't have complete control over what situations they are placed in.

I get the feeling that things could have gone better for the Cardinals this year. With that said, it's definitely not the end of the world.

 

[Broseph]

Meat and potatoes draft, not sexy, but solid. I trust BASK until they give me a reason not to. I feel like they drafted the right players for their system. I don't understand how people can get mad at the draft, you have no idea how these players are going to turn out, might as well be optimistic, and this is coming from a pessimistic Arizona sports fan.

 

[ajcardfan]

Good analysis Chopper, however, I just can't get positive at all on Logan Thomas. He has no touch and you can't teach accuracy. He has regressed not improved since his sophomore year. I watched him throughout the Senior Bowl week and game, he was terrible. He reminds me of a poor version of Derick Anderson.

I really hope I am wrong but feel we wasted a 4th round pick.

I saw several VT games and, sadly, I have to agree with this. He's scud missle II. He can throw a laser perfect pass, and then on the next two throws miss by 5 ft overthrow or underthrow. A great looking athlete, but QBing is a lot more than pure athleticism.


This is the one pick I've grown to really, really dislike. If we really want a QBOF, then go for it dammit. Enough crossing our fingers on projects and UDFA. Quit dinking around. Man, it's not every year you can go 10-6 and have a draft pick where you wind up with your choice between 2 of the top 3 QBs in the draft.

 

[PACardsFan]

referenced in what way? That we was taken before us? That we missed on?

Dee Ford
Anthony Barr
Marcus Smith
Demarcus Lawrence
Jeremiah Attaochu

...

I understand why we didn't move up for one of them but that doesn't mean it wasn't disappointing to not have gotten one. Now, we are putting ourselves in a tough spot for next year. Palmer is a FA. Abraham is a FA. Dockett will have a huge cap number. Fitzgerald will have a huge cap number. Peterson will need an extension. A bunch of premium positions that we don't have much on our roster in the way of replacing. An edge rusher would have made that list a bit shorter.

The only 2 speed rushers that I loved were Barr & Shazier, and both were just out of reach. With only 6 picks, the Cardinals just were not in a position to move up to grab them. Someone mentioned that the Cards were somewhat unlucky in this draft. I actually agree with that assessment. Given how the draft played out early, I was actually thrilled with the Bucannon & Niklas choices. I watch plenty of ND football, and too many on this board are underestimating this kids ability to be anything more than just a devastating blocker. He will be an all-around stud, count on it.

Chopper, I completely understand the frustration of not landing a stud speed rusher. This draft just didn't play out for us to grab one. Your overall assessment of our choices that you started this thread with was outstanding.

 

[TJ]

Yeah, the speed edge rusher thing is a bummer.

Abraham likely won't be a 10+ sack guy again, Acho is a rotational player at best, and Alex Okafor is an unknown commodity with the slimmest of expectations. This team is going to generate most of its pressure from the interior and from coverage sacks. What's astounding is that even without said elite outside pass rusher, this is a playoff caliber defense.

 

[PACardsFan]

I saw several VT games and, sadly, I have to agree with this. He's scud missle II. He can throw a laser perfect pass, and then on the next two throws miss by 5 ft overthrow or underthrow. A great looking athlete, but QBing is a lot more than pure athleticism.


This is the one pick I've grown to really, really dislike. If we really want a QBOF, then go for it dammit. Enough crossing our fingers on projects and UDFA. Quit dinking around. Man, it's not every year you can go 10-6 and have a draft pick where you wind up with your choice between 2 of the top 3 QBs in the draft.

Like it or not, under Arians, our QBOF will NEVER be QB's in the mold of Manziel or Brdigewater. That just isn't going to be the case. If that's what you want, then root for the Cardinals to go 5-11 the next 3 years & Arians will be shown the door. Until then, we better hope there's a 6'3" or taller QBOF coming out of college soon. I think comparing Thomas to Anderson is ridiculously unfair. DA was the worst QB in Cardinal history & there were many, many bad ones along the way. If we didn't have a proven QB guru to develop the kid, then I'd have my conerns too. But to nickname him scud II is nonsense.

 

[overseascardfan]

SI gave ARZ a "B". I wish ARZ would have taken Carl Bradford in Round 4 instead of Scud Jr and Terrence Mitchell in Round 6 in lieu of the slow, undersized WR they took.

What's worse is next year's draft does not feature a lot of 3-4 pass rushers, Vic Beasley is the best option but ARZ will probably be looking to nab its starting QB in Round 1 unless they trade for a young cast off like Mike Glennon should TB make him available.

 

[CardLogic]

2-Troy Niklas - TE
*Very physical blocker who needs work in the passing game. Not a vertical threat but a legitimate blocker who will allow us to go more 3 WR sets and will be a red zone mismatch. Vs the very physical 49er and Rams fronts, Niklas will give us a big help.

Niklas had 32 receptions for 498 yards, that's a 15.5 YPC average. Comparatively, Eric Ebron - 62 receptions, 15.7 YPC; Austin Seferian-Jenkins - 36 receptions, 12.5 ypc; Jace Amaro - 106 receptions, 12.8 ypc. Why do people keep saying the Niklas is will be a good blocker but not a receiving threat? Or that he won't get downfield?

I watch plenty of ND football, and too many on this board are underestimating this kids ability to be anything more than just a devastating blocker.
.

+1

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I saw several VT games and, sadly, I have to agree with this. He's scud missle II. He can throw a laser perfect pass, and then on the next two throws miss by 5 ft overthrow or underthrow. A great looking athlete, but QBing is a lot more than pure athleticism.


This is the one pick I've grown to really, really dislike. If we really want a QBOF, then go for it dammit. Enough crossing our fingers on projects and UDFA. Quit dinking around. Man, it's not every year you can go 10-6 and have a draft pick where you wind up with your choice between 2 of the top 3 QBs in the draft.

Kiem said in the presser that their was 2 QBs worth taking in this draft. 1 is a player they felt is a QBOTF (I would assume that is Bortles) and 1 that both himself and BA felt could be developed into a QBOTF and that is Logan Thomas. Also BA said that Logan's accuracy issues are all footwork and easily correctable and considering how long Logan has been playing the position it is believable. As for Thomas and his lack of development in the last couple years, he has played QB for 3 years with a different OC every year under a HC that puts an emphasis on defense and STs, with deteriorating talent around him and his WRs alone dropped 38 of his passes just this year. I don't know how pretty much anyone could look good in those circumstances.

Ultimately I am a big fan of this pick because our guys (who are supposed to be QB gurus) felt so highly of Thomas. For me this was the opposite of "dinking around" because they saw the guy they wanted and went for him. Hell they were even smoke-screening the day prior just to make sure someone didn't jump ahead of them in the 4th to take Thomas (according to BA there was a couple teams that would have taken him right after us).

 

[ajcardfan]

Like it or not, under Arians, our QBOF will NEVER be QB's in the mold of Manziel or Brdigewater. That just isn't going to be the case. If that's what you want, then root for the Cardinals to go 5-11 the next 3 years & Arians will be shown the door. Until then, we better hope there's a 6'3" or taller QBOF coming out of college soon. I think comparing Thomas to Anderson is ridiculously unfair. DA was the worst QB in Cardinal history & there were many, many bad ones along the way. If we didn't have a proven QB guru to develop the kid, then I'd have my conerns too. But to nickname him scud II is nonsense.

You really think much of anyone listens to the nicknames I give players? Thanks!

Look, the kid is a Cardinal an I hope he is great. That would be fantastic.

:3amigos:

My comments were based on the college games I watched this year and he seriously regressed. You just couldn't predict where or how well he would throw.

 

[ajcardfan]

Kiem said in the presser that their was 2 QBs worth taking in this draft. 1 is a player they felt is a QBOTF (I would assume that is Bortles) and 1 that both himself and BA felt could be developed into a QBOTF and that is Logan Thomas. Also BA said that Logan's accuracy issues are all footwork and easily correctable and considering how long Logan has been playing the position it is believable. As for Thomas and his lack of development in the last couple years, he has played QB for 3 years with a different OC every year under a HC that puts an emphasis on defense and STs, with deteriorating talent around him and his WRs alone dropped 38 of his passes just this year. I don't know how pretty much anyone could look good in those circumstances.

Ultimately I am a big fan of this pick because our guys (who are supposed to be QB gurus) felt so highly of Thomas. For me this was the opposite of "dinking around" because they saw the guy they wanted and went for him. Hell they were even smoke-screening the day prior just to make sure someone didn't jump ahead of them in the 4th to take Thomas (according to BA there was a couple teams that would have taken him right after us).

Okay, I understand your viewpoint. I think they have been gunshy on taking a QB high since the Leinart fiasco. Maybe they weren't today. Who knows?


Now when it comes to playing style, he really reminds me of Tebow. Fantastic run threat, but passer.... not so much. Again, I hope I'm wrong and years from now fans all over are calling Thomas the best in the NFL.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Okay, I understand your viewpoint. I think they have been gunshy on taking a QB high since the Leinart fiasco. Maybe they weren't today. Who knows?


Now when it comes to playing style, he really reminds me of Tebow. Fantastic run threat, but passer.... not so much. Again, I hope I'm wrong and years from now fans all over are calling Thomas the best in the NFL.

There is couple huge difference between Tebow and Thomas as throwers of the football. Thomas has a very powerful arm with a relatively good throwing motion and a quick release. Tebow doesn't have any of those things. However yes they are both pretty good at running the ball.