Thoughts on Whiz and Schemes

Mitch

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Glad to see Whiz get a little heated on the sidelines yesterday. I must say the guy is a paragon of patience and poise. Little rattles the guy and he is absolutely great at keeping on course with his belief in his system and his players.

In his press conference Whiz praised the Panthers...and rightly so...they played like they were on a mission and they deflated a crowd that was ready to yell the roof off. Whiz also felt---rather judiciously---that Warner didn't play all that bad, that he was the victim of some bad breaks and that they happen sometimes. Whiz was critical of the team's tackling---or lack thereof---so it wasn't as if Whiz was hiding behind rose colored glasses either.

It's amazing that despite some weaknesses in the team's personnel due to injuries and lack of suitable depth at certain positions that Whiz has basically maintained the same roster he has come out of training camp with. At times, I have felt exasperated by this...seeing as, here he is once again this year holding onto 4 TEs in lieu of adding necessary depth at more important positions. It also has been very frustrating to learn week after week that despite the hobbling WRs, Early Doucet keeps landing on the inactive lists. But, Whiz stays true to his course and his way of thinking. Last year Whiz waited 4 weeks to play J.J. Arrington and look what happened when he finally got his chance. Hopefully Doucet will be that guy this year, if and when...

What the Cardinal players are learning is they can't just show up for home games and think they are going to let the crowd get them fired up...good football doesn't work that way. They had no crowd to fire them up for the Giants' game...but that game captured their interests and when that happens this team seems to play at a much higher level.

Brian Billick was right about not sensing a real urgency from the Cardinals' offense yesterday. Part of this they get from they ever-poised head coach. But part of this they get from Kurt Warner, who, as time goes on gets more and more deliberate in snapping the ball, even and especially in the two minute drill. And Warner needs to stop looking to the sidelines every time the team gets inside the five yard line...get the boys in the huddle and call your own play if you have to...but these timeouts, on the move, with all the momentum in the world and especially yesterday with a sizeable deficit to erase are thoroughly inexcusable for a veteran QB, offense and HC.

Speaking more about a lack of urgency...how about the looks on the Cardinals' offensive players these days? Not much life or excitement in their eyes or their faces, starting with Warner whose countenance looks more like he's surpressing a wince out there...otherwise he looks just plain tired, ambivalent or bored. Larry Fitzgerald is walking around with eyes as wide as saucers...what's up with that? Boldin doesn't look right, nor does Breaston...they look hurt and they are...and they are playing and acting like it.

The only three players on offense who look like they are having fun out there are RB Tim Hightower, C Lyle Sendlein and G Deuce Lutui. TEs Ben Patrick and Anthony Becht also do more than not, but they are not exactly impacting the games because the TEs are not being utilized often enough, especially in the passing game (they were thrown to what three times yesterday in total). Beanie Wells is starting to thaw out a little...he's looked stiff in the face between plays...but this team NEEDS some emotion and some urgency...and a better idea of how to give Kurt Warner the extra two seconds he needs to make all the throws in the offense (remember the signature play of the Carolina playoff win last year when Warner hung in the pocket long enough that Fitz was able to sprint from the left slot to the right pylon and Warner delivered him a perfect strike in stride and Fitz reached the ball out to the pylon?...well this year Warner can't make that throw because the tackles can't protect for him that long and the RBs that could chip the DEs to slow them up are running out or swing routes more often than not).

About the RB out and swing routes...so many time yesterday we saw TH lined up on Julius Peppers' side...and the thought was yes finally he is going to chip on Peppers, only no, he runs right past him on an out route. What is the thought here? Well, what the coaches are trying to do is open the middle by having the LB chase TH to the outside...and that's fine, but that's all the Cardinals are going to get are those little drag passes that Breaston, Fitz and Q caught but amounted to little because none of them are fast enough right now to shake their defenders. Therefore, wouldn't it be wiser to have the trio run deeper, more intermediate routes, and have TH chip the DE to slow him down and then release into the middle or out to the side as a safety valve?

The thing is...if you are Julius Peppers or Dwight Freeney or Parys Haralson, aren't you jacked out of your mind coming into the Cardinal games? You've watched the Cardinal tackles get toasted in the Super Bowl and all through the first several games of this year...and you see that the Cardinals STILL have the tackles playing on islands 95% of the time. Already, even before the game starts the Cardinals have given an emotional and psychological edge to the opponent. And now the opposing secondaries aren't all that afraid either because they know the Cardinal WRs are not very fast, plus they know the Cardinals won't run the ball that much, so their safeties can give the CBs help over the top all game. Plus the CBs have the luxury of knowing all they really have to do is bust their butts for three seconds because the ball is going to come out that quick almost every time.

Ironically the one TE who has never played, Dominque Byrd, is perhaps the Cardinals' best answer for solving these defenses, because he has the speed to beat a LB up the seam where the FS has vacated in order to double Fitz. But, alas, it seems Byrd is not in the immediate plans.

As for the run defense yesterday...what the Cardinals are learning is that when they stack the interior three inside, teams will run off-tackle by busting down on the DE and isolating on the OLB...and the hope is that Hayes or Dansby will guess wrong or get caught in traffic or plucked by the pulling guard and the RB will be off to the races. When the team is flexing the interior three...the opponents kick out the DE and isolate on the ILB...which is exactly what the Panthers did on DeAngelo Williams' 80 yard run...on that play, Dockett was kicked out, Watson was pinched inside, and Hayes guess wrong and went to the C gap (off-tackle), where he got blocked out, and Wilson was rushing to the edge where he was in no position to make the play, while Dansby was caught napping on the other side.

Later in the game, on a key third down, for some inexplicable reason they team had Berry lined up straight over the tackle even though there was a TE to his side...and who was on the edge with the TE? CB Ralph Brown. Yikes.The Panthers had an easy down block on Berry and ran the sweep to Williams...Brown made a weak attempt to force the run and basically jumped into a blocker and Williams was off to the races. Carolina was very smart about audibling to the vulnerable areas of the Cardinals' defense. What Bill Davis needs to do is start shifting the linemen whenever there's an audible call...otherwise what we saw yesterday will repeat itself over and over, as the DE will be sitting ducks to power plays and double teams.
 

82CardsGrad

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Agree with most of the above Mitch, with the exception being your comments about our run defense... The way I saw it yesterday, our guys actually got to where they were supposed to be. They were making solid, initial contact in places that would ordinarily have produced little or no gains. The problems weren't our schemes, it was our execution. I have never seen so many missed tackles. Bottom line, our defense did not come prepared to kick butt. As has been mentioned time and again -we KNEW what Carolina was going to do. We KNEW Delhomme wasn't going to beat us. We had 8 in the box virtually the entire game! And more often than not, we were in position to make plays and stop Williams and Stewart. This is entirely on the players, period. They remain a bunch of talented, inconsistent and immature players.
As an aside, I was shocked to see Dockett literally celebrating and dancing after he and Okeafor knocked the crap out of Delhomme... And on the VERY NEXT play, they run the ball for 6 yards as Dockett gets completely blown out on the play! Gimme a break!!!! :mad:
 

Chopper0080

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Some points

-This team goes on offense as Warner goes and Warner looks dead. He just seems to be tired, slow, and frustrated. His body language is seen by his teammates and is not what you want to see from your offensive leader. I think that Warner has a long leash this year, but he shouldn't be in next year's plans.

-I saw Hightower chip 3 or 4 times yesterday on Peppers, but I agree we need to protect our tackles more. The problem is that Warner is best when he has multiple options in the passing game, and going max protect limits these options. It is a catch-22.

-About Byrd. He has been cut from 2 other teams. I agree that he seems to have potential, but there is a history of issues that are not easily viewed by fans. I have to say that I will assume that there is a reason he isn't playing.

-As far as the third down alignment goes, having Berry head up on the tackle is not a poor alignment when you have a safety outside. Where this alignment failed was with the execution. Berry has to stretch the play and keep his outside arm free. With his speed he shouldn't be able to be hooked by a tackle like that. Not only that, but Brown had outside contain and instead of forcing the play back inside to pursuit, he dove inside and gave up the edge. Both of these bonehead plays cut off our linebackers ability to flow to the ball carrier and created a big play. Our performance in this play was a summary of our defensive issues all game long.
 
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Mitch

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Some points

-This team goes on offense as Warner goes and Warner looks dead. He just seems to be tired, slow, and frustrated. His body language is seen by his teammates and is not what you want to see from your offensive leader. I think that Warner has a long leash this year, but he shouldn't be in next year's plans.

-I saw Hightower chip 3 or 4 times yesterday on Peppers, but I agree we need to protect our tackles more. The problem is that Warner is best when he has multiple options in the passing game, and going max protect limits these options. It is a catch-22.

-About Byrd. He has been cut from 2 other teams. I agree that he seems to have potential, but there is a history of issues that are not easily viewed by fans. I have to say that I will assume that there is a reason he isn't playing.

-As far as the third down alignment goes, having Berry head up on the tackle is not a poor alignment when you have a safety outside. Where this alignment failed was with the execution. Berry has to stretch the play and keep his outside arm free. With his speed he shouldn't be able to be hooked by a tackle like that. Not only that, but Brown had outside contain and instead of forcing the play back inside to pursuit, he dove inside and gave up the edge. Both of these bonehead plays cut off our linebackers ability to flow to the ball carrier and created a big play. Our performance in this play was a summary of our defensive issues all game long.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Chopper...good stuff.

However, Kurt Warner is here to stay, I think even beyond next year. He still is one of the top three most accurate passers in the NFL. Look at what Favre is doing in his 40s. These guy can play...STILL.

Byrd would be active on my list. He's a wild card...a TE who can stretch the coverage. Why keep him otherwise?

Berry couldn't keep his outsuide arm free because he was head up on the OT and the TE downblocked on him, and easily sealed him off to the inside. There was no safety on the TE...it was CB Ralph Brown. This play assured us that the Panthers were surveying their calls at the l.o.s. and running to where the Cardinals were most vulnerable. In this case, their call for a sweep to Willams was foolproof. They basically had to beat Ralph Brown, who took two steps and leaped up into a blocker. Gotta wonder what Bill Davis was thinking in that situation...which was a SURE running situation.
 

conraddobler

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I appreciate your thoughtful response, Chopper...good stuff.

However, Kurt Warner is here to stay, I think even beyond next year. He still is one of the top three most accurate passers in the NFL. Look at what Favre is doing in his 40s. These guy can play...STILL.

Byrd would be active on my list. He's a wild card...a TE who can stretch the coverage. Why keep him otherwise?

Berry couldn't keep his outsuide arm free because he was head up on the OT and the TE downblocked on him, and easily sealed him off to the inside. There was no safety on the TE...it was CB Ralph Brown. This play assured us that the Panthers were surveying their calls at the l.o.s. and running to where the Cardinals were most vulnerable. In this case, their call for a sweep to Willams was foolproof. They basically had to beat Ralph Brown, who took two steps and leaped up into a blocker. Gotta wonder what Bill Davis was thinking in that situation...which was a SURE running situation.

Kurt is not Farve, not built like him, dosen't have the same kind of arm.

When Kurt goes downhill it'll be pretty abrupt IMO.
 

Buckybird

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Good points Mitch. Teams are just daring us to run because they know we aren't going to. Time to pound the rock at least 30 times a game until teams respect the run and the Wr's are healthy. But we know thats not going to happen as long as Warner is the starting QB in AZ, that not what he likes to do.
 
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Mitch

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Good points Mitch. Teams are just daring us to run because they know we aren't going to. Time to pound the rock at least 30 times a game until teams respect the run and the Wr's are healthy. But we know thats not going to happen as long as Warner is the starting QB in AZ, that not what he likes to do.

Bucky...you are onto something. I think that the game plan going into Carolina was to run the ball a lot with Wells in particular. But the 28-7 deficit prohibited that. It will be interesting what we see at Chicago this week...methinks a heavy dose of Wells and some play action to keep da Bears honest.
 

Buckybird

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Bucky...you are onto something. I think that the game plan going into Carolina was to run the ball a lot with Wells in particular. But the 28-7 deficit prohibited that. It will be interesting what we see at Chicago this week...methinks a heavy dose of Wells and some play action to keep da Bears honest.

I dont expect to see Quan at all this week. If it doesn't happen (& I dont expect it to) this week I really feel the freefall of a underachieving season will begin.
 

cardpa

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It's nice to see that some are finally seeing that Warner is not going to get any better this year and in fact it should be his swan song. I said in the pre-season that Leinart and Wells would be starting by game 10. I think that is still a very reasonable scenario.
 

Buckybird

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It's nice to see that some are finally seeing that Warner is not going to get any better this year and in fact it should be his swan song. I said in the pre-season that Leinart and Wells would be starting by game 10. I think that is still a very reasonable scenario.

i'm not sure that Wiz or the organization has the balls to insert Leinart after giving Warner the big $$$ this offseason.
 

splitsecond

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the only time I have noticed Warner look fired up this year was in NY. and oh, guess what, it was reflected in the rest of the team. dude needs to get out of whatever funk he is in.
 

Doug

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I,just like Mitch see Warner playing out his contract and a lot of you very happy he did it.You just can't see it yet.Like you wanted him gone last year a few times to get your guy in there but Warner did his best to win the Superbowl with us.Warner is a CARDINAL through and through and he can't call a pass when Whiz calls a run.

Its an obvious fact that many on this and the other main board would have liked to have seen Matt a long time before now.I doubt it happens either unless a major injury occurs.Its not Kurts fault on many of the things that have happened.Just glad at least Whiz sees it.

Just to add one thing to your awesome thread starter Mitch is that the defensive lineman were not in attack mode but in a sit and catch mode.The running backs just made contact and spun away and down the line and around the end and contain that Okeafor never provided.Our guys attacked the running backs in New York.

These same two running backs in the playoffs went straight down the field at the begining of the game for a score and then Delhomme started throwing his interceptions and it took them out of the game.So they came into this game knowing they could run on this defense,and WELL.
 

Chopper0080

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I just want to clarify something. I am very critical of Kurt Warner, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to see him succeed. I do however have very strong opinions on Kurt Warner because of how his offensive preferences effect our offensive scheme.

Because of how Kurt uniquely dictates how we run our offense, I believe that he is responsible for it's success and/or failure.

Because Kurt is a veteran in the league, I believe that he is responsible for the majority of his turnovers. You play a veteran QB because he doesn't make mistakes due to inexperience.

Because Kurt is 38 years old, I believe that his ability/willingness to play the position is constantly in flux. If Kurt is our QB next year I will be stoked, because it probably means that he was successful. However, from what I have seen from his play and body language this season, I can't see this happening. He seems to be playing like an old QB rather than a renaissance (sp?) man. If he had questions about playing another year after a dream season last year, I just can't see it being an easier decision after a year that he seems to be physically struggling through.

Doug
 

Doug

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GOD BLESS the right to have an opinion in this country.I agree to disagree and have opposite strong feelings that I can't even voice with so many feeling the exact opposite out of pure anger and lack of really knowing what is truely going on inside the head coach's mind and the mind of Kurt Warner.

The mind readers are out in full force after this game and I'm just glad Kurt is a true pro's pro and has amnesia to what happened last week and can move on with a clear head towards winning in Chicago,our fouth away game this season.That would be awesome.

We don't have the team speed we had last year.It effects everything we do in the passing game.Two lame wideouts will effect that system badly.


So many have'nt a clue about whats truely going on behind the scenes yet think they have their hand on the facts of whats really happening and that they see and know things that they really have'nt got a clue about.

I'm just glad you and others have a right to say it in a free America and this wonderfull place where we all come to exchange ideas and be brother fans of the same team THE CARDINALS and wish to win the SUPERBOWL every year we go into battle.

The two teams playing tonight have speed EVERYWHERE.We had more last year with a HEALTHY STEVE BREASTON and a HEALTHY Q running routes.We don't have that this year.It is showing bigtime.

The levels of speed Warner is used to playing with and reading defenses and getting the ball out quick to recievers with seperation is something we have'nt had this year.Maybe by next season we can add that element back to the team.

Improved the run game and I know our offensive line will be changed to players who can handle speed rushers on the outside.

Cheers!!! Lets go on a three game win streak.It can happen.:)
 
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Buckybird

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All I know is this, the Cards offense (passing game) isn't & hasn't clicked anywhere near where it had been the last part of 2007 & all of last season. Thats reality!!!

Whether its:

1) the playcalling of Wiz
2) the loss of Haley
3) pressure off the edges of Gandy & Brown
4) Warner
5) injuries to Boldin & Breaston
6) coverages to take away the big gainers

The problems are either a combination of 1, many or all, who knows. But there is a problem because it has gone on for 7 games now. You can see there are problems in Warner & Fitz's eyes & yesterday the pressure to change that magnified the problem. Its there!!!

Something has to change because I dont see it changing anytime soon with the injuries to the WR corps & struggles of Brown & Gandy.

Time 2 adopt a running philosophy to minimize the weaknesses of our OT's & lack of deep throws. POUND THE ROCK at least 30 times a game because our running game is close to busting out, given the opportunity. I really believe it will open things up in time.

Teams are daring us to run by playing deep coverage so its time to take advantage of that.
 
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moklerman

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20+ yard plays by Warner:
2009 - 6.0%
2008 - 8.4%
2007 - 9.8%
2006 - 8.9%
2005 - 9.9%
2004 - 8.7%
2002 - 6.8%
2001 - 14.8%
2000 - 14.1%
1999 - 12.0%
 

cardpa

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Time 2 adopt a running philosophy to minimize the weaknesses of our OT's & lack of deep throws. POUND THE ROCK at least 30 times a game because our running game is close to busting out, given the opportunity. I really believe it will open things up in time.

Teams are daring us to run by playing deep coverage so its time to take advantage of that.

I could not agree more however as long as Warner is under center there won't be 30 carries a game because he will audible out of too many run plays.
 

CaptTurbo

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There was a 3rd and 1 last week and Davis but us in either a dime or a nickle. I cant remmeber which. Needless to say the Panthers got like yards.
 

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Glad to see Whiz get a little heated on the sidelines yesterday. I must say the guy is a paragon of patience and poise. Little rattles the guy and he is absolutely great at keeping on course with his belief in his system and his players.

In his press conference Whiz praised the Panthers...and rightly so...they played like they were on a mission and they deflated a crowd that was ready to yell the roof off. Whiz also felt---rather judiciously---that Warner didn't play all that bad, that he was the victim of some bad breaks and that they happen sometimes. Whiz was critical of the team's tackling---or lack thereof---so it wasn't as if Whiz was hiding behind rose colored glasses either.

It's amazing that despite some weaknesses in the team's personnel due to injuries and lack of suitable depth at certain positions that Whiz has basically maintained the same roster he has come out of training camp with. At times, I have felt exasperated by this...seeing as, here he is once again this year holding onto 4 TEs in lieu of adding necessary depth at more important positions. It also has been very frustrating to learn week after week that despite the hobbling WRs, Early Doucet keeps landing on the inactive lists. But, Whiz stays true to his course and his way of thinking. Last year Whiz waited 4 weeks to play J.J. Arrington and look what happened when he finally got his chance. Hopefully Doucet will be that guy this year, if and when...

What the Cardinal players are learning is they can't just show up for home games and think they are going to let the crowd get them fired up...good football doesn't work that way. They had no crowd to fire them up for the Giants' game...but that game captured their interests and when that happens this team seems to play at a much higher level.

Brian Billick was right about not sensing a real urgency from the Cardinals' offense yesterday. Part of this they get from they ever-poised head coach. But part of this they get from Kurt Warner, who, as time goes on gets more and more deliberate in snapping the ball, even and especially in the two minute drill. And Warner needs to stop looking to the sidelines every time the team gets inside the five yard line...get the boys in the huddle and call your own play if you have to...but these timeouts, on the move, with all the momentum in the world and especially yesterday with a sizeable deficit to erase are thoroughly inexcusable for a veteran QB, offense and HC.

Speaking more about a lack of urgency...how about the looks on the Cardinals' offensive players these days? Not much life or excitement in their eyes or their faces, starting with Warner whose countenance looks more like he's surpressing a wince out there...otherwise he looks just plain tired, ambivalent or bored. Larry Fitzgerald is walking around with eyes as wide as saucers...what's up with that? Boldin doesn't look right, nor does Breaston...they look hurt and they are...and they are playing and acting like it.

The only three players on offense who look like they are having fun out there are RB Tim Hightower, C Lyle Sendlein and G Deuce Lutui. TEs Ben Patrick and Anthony Becht also do more than not, but they are not exactly impacting the games because the TEs are not being utilized often enough, especially in the passing game (they were thrown to what three times yesterday in total). Beanie Wells is starting to thaw out a little...he's looked stiff in the face between plays...but this team NEEDS some emotion and some urgency...and a better idea of how to give Kurt Warner the extra two seconds he needs to make all the throws in the offense (remember the signature play of the Carolina playoff win last year when Warner hung in the pocket long enough that Fitz was able to sprint from the left slot to the right pylon and Warner delivered him a perfect strike in stride and Fitz reached the ball out to the pylon?...well this year Warner can't make that throw because the tackles can't protect for him that long and the RBs that could chip the DEs to slow them up are running out or swing routes more often than not).

About the RB out and swing routes...so many time yesterday we saw TH lined up on Julius Peppers' side...and the thought was yes finally he is going to chip on Peppers, only no, he runs right past him on an out route. What is the thought here? Well, what the coaches are trying to do is open the middle by having the LB chase TH to the outside...and that's fine, but that's all the Cardinals are going to get are those little drag passes that Breaston, Fitz and Q caught but amounted to little because none of them are fast enough right now to shake their defenders. Therefore, wouldn't it be wiser to have the trio run deeper, more intermediate routes, and have TH chip the DE to slow him down and then release into the middle or out to the side as a safety valve?

The thing is...if you are Julius Peppers or Dwight Freeney or Parys Haralson, aren't you jacked out of your mind coming into the Cardinal games? You've watched the Cardinal tackles get toasted in the Super Bowl and all through the first several games of this year...and you see that the Cardinals STILL have the tackles playing on islands 95% of the time. Already, even before the game starts the Cardinals have given an emotional and psychological edge to the opponent. And now the opposing secondaries aren't all that afraid either because they know the Cardinal WRs are not very fast, plus they know the Cardinals won't run the ball that much, so their safeties can give the CBs help over the top all game. Plus the CBs have the luxury of knowing all they really have to do is bust their butts for three seconds because the ball is going to come out that quick almost every time.

Ironically the one TE who has never played, Dominque Byrd, is perhaps the Cardinals' best answer for solving these defenses, because he has the speed to beat a LB up the seam where the FS has vacated in order to double Fitz. But, alas, it seems Byrd is not in the immediate plans.

As for the run defense yesterday...what the Cardinals are learning is that when they stack the interior three inside, teams will run off-tackle by busting down on the DE and isolating on the OLB...and the hope is that Hayes or Dansby will guess wrong or get caught in traffic or plucked by the pulling guard and the RB will be off to the races. When the team is flexing the interior three...the opponents kick out the DE and isolate on the ILB...which is exactly what the Panthers did on DeAngelo Williams' 80 yard run...on that play, Dockett was kicked out, Watson was pinched inside, and Hayes guess wrong and went to the C gap (off-tackle), where he got blocked out, and Wilson was rushing to the edge where he was in no position to make the play, while Dansby was caught napping on the other side.

Later in the game, on a key third down, for some inexplicable reason they team had Berry lined up straight over the tackle even though there was a TE to his side...and who was on the edge with the TE? CB Ralph Brown. Yikes.The Panthers had an easy down block on Berry and ran the sweep to Williams...Brown made a weak attempt to force the run and basically jumped into a blocker and Williams was off to the races. Carolina was very smart about audibling to the vulnerable areas of the Cardinals' defense. What Bill Davis needs to do is start shifting the linemen whenever there's an audible call...otherwise what we saw yesterday will repeat itself over and over, as the DE will be sitting ducks to power plays and double teams.

Mitch: Great post as always-------and Billick was spot on with us not being ready. He was also spot on when he said their D-Scheme was simple as a screwdriver. We just didn't show up, Coaches or Players. Yet another blown opportunity by the Cardinals.:(
 
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