USC football in big trouble-Reggie Bush story?

[Russ Smith]

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news?slug=ys-bushprobe&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Not sure if I'm allowed to cut and paste this story so I'm just posting the link. All over ESPN etc, USC boards are ablaze with this talk. Apparently Bush and his family got over 100K in extra benefits last year including 54K in free rent on the house where Bush' parents lived.

Yahoo says they did an 8 month investigation and have linked numerous payments from Michael Ornstein who is now Bush' marketing manager. He denies it but then in some of the article admits that someone that worked for him made several loans to Bush and his family for things like suits for the Heisman ceremony, even a car, but he said his understanding was Bush would repay them all when he went pro and he didn't know if it was a violation or not. Well hate to break it to you Mr. Ornstein but it IS a violation and if you really admitted to it you probably just cost Bush a Heisman and might have cost USC a national title since this stuff started during his soph year when they won it.

Bush could be retroactively declared ineligible and thus USC would forfeit all the games he played in.

 

[Mulli]

Woo hoo. ASU would be 8-4 last year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Dan Wetzel, the same guy who did the hatchet job on John Wooden the day of the NCAA title game in hoops this year, wrote another article on this where he calls for USC to forfeit their national title. Of course the BCS not the NCAA controls that so it's not clear they COULD strip it.

But this is going to get interesting one wonders how much fire there is around all this smoke?

 

[abomb]

If true, Bush and USC have no one to blame but Bush. All NCAA althletes, even at the lowest level marginal sports, are given education toward what is legal and illegal. When in doubt, he could have consulted the coaching staff or AD. What a dope.

 

[Russ Smith]

If true, Bush and USC have no one to blame but Bush. All NCAA althletes, even at the lowest level marginal sports, are given education toward what is legal and illegal. When in doubt, he could have consulted the coaching staff or AD. What a dope.

It's looking more and more like there is something to this. Reports have already circulated that say Pete Carroll went out of his way this summer to chase agents away from USC, told them to stay away from recruiting events. And that he held special onsite classes to teach USC players what was and wasn't legal, way above and beyond what USC had ever done on their own(NCAA does this too) before. The implication being Carroll knew Bush had broken some rules and wanted to make damn sure it didn't happen again.

The Yahoo story says there were agents all over USC last year, one coach said at one point he noticed 10 people at practice who didn't belong and said some were agents. There's always exaggeration it seems like in these stories but it sure does look at the moment like USC is going to be in trouble here because Ornstein has admitted loans were made and they've now got receipts from at least 2 trips where Michaels(the guy who pursued Bush but was NOT hired as his agent) paid for hotel rooms, rental cars etc but Reggie Bush signed for them implying that Michaels paid for Bush. So unless someone forged his name, bush is implicated.

 

[Dback Jon]

Rut - ro.

Hopefully, if USC gets punished, they can find a way to get something from Bush as well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Bush was on ESPN earlier denying it, can't help but think of Palmeiro's steroid denial when you watch this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soDKjFjC_Mk&eurl=

ESPN had a former NCAA investigator comment on it, he says it's unlikely that USC would forfeit wins or money unless it can be shown that they knew Bush was ineligible and still played him.

There's some speculation that's actually the case because the rumor was out before the Rose Bowl game that Bush had done something wrong, Yahoo just hadn't published it yet.

 

[Russ Smith]

OOh according to PFT this is getting juicy now.

PFT says that the lawyer for Michaels the guy trying to become Bush' agent says they will sue Bush and his family in the next 30 days for fraud. The claim being they never had any thought of signing with Michaels, they were already committed to Ornstein they were just taking money from Michaels under the false pretense they were going to sign with him (fraud).

Also Charlie Casserly apparently said on air he asked Bush repeatedly before the draft if there was any truth to the allegations and he repeatedly said no. No idea but one assumes this may have had something to do with them passing on Bush because it's apparent that PFT felt Casserly did not believe Bush(I didn't see him say it).

"League insiders" are all saying the same thing, if Bush is innocent how come he hasn't sued anybody yet? To prove libel he has to prove his reputation was harmed but clearly it has been. Also, Bush apparently insists they won't take the Heisman away but they said there's speculation that his agent is trying to spin it, that he tried to scare off Michaels by instigating an FBI investigation but Michaels as said above is about to sue Bush so that didn't work. They imply that those who have seen the information Yahoo has on him are pretty clear that there's a very strong case for Bush being declared retroactively ineligible, especially because a Trojan coach apparently had reason to suspect and didn't do anything despite commenting that agents were around the team daily.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

So is there a chance USC will actually get punished for this or is this another one of those look the other way things?

 

[clif]

why are people so hell bent on trying to tear down a great college program. So he got some money and suits. He was still the most exciting player in college football and USC kicked everyone's ass.

I just don't really see the big deal. Before the morality police come please tell me how this is so different from any other crap that goes on in other places including outside of sports all together.

 

[Russ Smith]

why are people so hell bent on trying to tear down a great college program. So he got some money and suits. He was still the most exciting player in college football and USC kicked everyone's ass.

I just don't really see the big deal. Before the morality police come please tell me how this is so different from any other crap that goes on in other places including outside of sports all together.

That's the argument by all the USC fans, we're not the only team cheating so why go after us?

My answer is when you're the #1 team for nearly 3 years and on tv all the time in a major media market, you can't complain if you cheat and get caught. If you're driving a lowered bright red escalade with fancy spinners and you're speeding, you can't complain when you get pulled over.

IF Bush took money, and USC had reason to know about it, they should be punished.

The bigger reason is that this comes as no surprise as anybody you don't go from "remember when USC was great" to the dominant program in the NCAA that quickly without suspicions something is going on, and it now appears something WAS going on.

I like USC football(despite being a UCLA fan) they're fun to watch and Bush was my favorite college player the last 2 years, but if he was on the take, I think he should be stripped of his Heisman. Just to be clear, I don't think Adrian Peterson should be playing this year he should have been declared ineligible when they caught him driving around in a brand new car free because a dealership(same one that got Bomar in trouble) "loaned" him the car to let him "test drive" it. He'd been driviing it for weeks when caught, and the dealership contended it was perfectly normal for them to let potential buyers do that. I personally think athletes in college football and basketball should get paid something, always have, but until that rule changes the current rule says they can't do this stuff and if they do, I really think the book should be thrown at them to scare off others. What better way to stop people from cheating than for a guy to have to forfeit his Heisman trophy because he cheated?

 

[clif]

That's the argument by all the USC fans, we're not the only team cheating so why go after us?

My answer is when you're the #1 team for nearly 3 years and on tv all the time in a major media market, you can't complain if you cheat and get caught. If you're driving a lowered bright red escalade with fancy spinners and you're speeding, you can't complain when you get pulled over.

IF Bush took money, and USC had reason to know about it, they should be punished.

The bigger reason is that this comes as no surprise as anybody you don't go from "remember when USC was great" to the dominant program in the NCAA that quickly without suspicions something is going on, and it now appears something WAS going on.

I like USC football(despite being a UCLA fan) they're fun to watch and Bush was my favorite college player the last 2 years, but if he was on the take, I think he should be stripped of his Heisman. Just to be clear, I don't think Adrian Peterson should be playing this year he should have been declared ineligible when they caught him driving around in a brand new car free because a dealership(same one that got Bomar in trouble) "loaned" him the car to let him "test drive" it. He'd been driviing it for weeks when caught, and the dealership contended it was perfectly normal for them to let potential buyers do that. I personally think athletes in college football and basketball should get paid something, always have, but until that rule changes the current rule says they can't do this stuff and if they do, I really think the book should be thrown at them to scare off others. What better way to stop people from cheating than for a guy to have to forfeit his Heisman trophy because he cheated?

I'm not defending USC so much as more the college athlete. Why is it such a travesty that his family got some free stuff? We all know this stuff goes on in other places outside of college sports. Why is it such a crime? So his family got some debt paid off and lived off his name...so what! These insurance companies do the same thing. Hey we'll cover you for 5 million dollar policy for "x" amount of money in case you get hurt. Hey they are basing that clearly off the guys future contract with an NFL team.. why can't a family do the same thing.

We can all sit and say well the other students at lesser schools are disadvantaged because they can't compete against the bigger named boosters and all that crap. Yeah that may be true to a certain extent, but that is life. Companies do this sorta thing all the time. People can say well these are kids and they are getting an education that most people never get blah blah blah... again I say... what is so different about that than any other aspect of life. You always got the haves and the have nots.

My point is that this is so hypocritical in that people want to label good people "cheaters" all the while those same people are lying, stealing from their company, cheating on their wives, beating on their kids, cheating on their taxes, money laudering... etc

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

So is there a chance USC will actually get punished for this or is this another one of those look the other way things?

They'll likely get a slap on the wrist (a few lost scholarships and possibly forfeiting some W's), the punishment for accepting money from agents is far less than accepting money from boosters or coaches. Of course, the elephant in the room is both are prevalent on most major college campuses.

 

[Russ Smith]

They'll likely get a slap on the wrist (a few lost scholarships and possibly forfeiting some W's), the punishment for accepting money from agents is far less than accepting money from boosters or coaches. Of course, the elephant in the room is both are prevalent on most major college campuses.

True unless they can show a direct link where USC knew about this and did nothing, it won't be a severe punishment. Bush does have a realistic chance of being declared retroactively ineligible which COULD cost him the Heisman because apparently it's right there in writing that to get the award a player must be of eligible status and if they declare he wasn't, he'd forfeit the award. Vince Young has already said he won't accept the award if Bush loses it, so it would likely be vacated.

Long ways off but it is sounding more and more like there's something to it.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

True unless they can show a direct link where USC knew about this and did nothing, it won't be a severe punishment.

We both know that will be nearly impossible to prove and I doubt the NCAA is really that interested in bringing down the football program not named Notre Dame which probably makes them more money than any in the country.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not defending USC so much as more the college athlete. Why is it such a travesty that his family got some free stuff? We all know this stuff goes on in other places outside of college sports. Why is it such a crime? So his family got some debt paid off and lived off his name...so what! These insurance companies do the same thing. Hey we'll cover you for 5 million dollar policy for "x" amount of money in case you get hurt. Hey they are basing that clearly off the guys future contract with an NFL team.. why can't a family do the same thing.

We can all sit and say well the other students at lesser schools are disadvantaged because they can't compete against the bigger named boosters and all that crap. Yeah that may be true to a certain extent, but that is life. Companies do this sorta thing all the time. People can say well these are kids and they are getting an education that most people never get blah blah blah... again I say... what is so different about that than any other aspect of life. You always got the haves and the have nots.

My point is that this is so hypocritical in that people want to label good people "cheaters" all the while those same people are lying, stealing from their company, cheating on their wives, beating on their kids, cheating on their taxes, money laudering... etc

There's no perfect answer but put it this way, now that we know that Casserly as GM of the Texans actually confronted Bush about this before deciding not to draft him, one can only assume that was a "question of character" because obviously it in no way affected his draft status. A player could cheat nonstop in college and even if caught it wouldn't affect his draft status so we have to assume the reason the Texans asked is they considered it a character issue, if he'd do that in college, what will he do in the NFL with all the money we're going to pay him?

Obviously Bush isn't the only player out there taking money but that doesn't make it right.

I agree with you we all do things we shouldn't, the difference is if we get caught, nobody is going to say hey who cares if so and so cheats on his taxes we all do that let him go. If we get caught, we get punished.

With respect to this the thing that gets dicey is that if true, there's a pretty good argument that Bush or at least his stepfather and mother DID commit fraud here since they took money from an agent that they apparently had no intention of signing with(because Bush was already apparently committed to Ornstein). They also took 54K in free rent and repeatedly failed to make rent payments and then told Michaels they'd repay him when reggie went pro, its' alleged they haven't even done that.

To me the issue is pretty simple, college sports are huge business but that doesn't mean there's no going back. That doesn't mean that we can't actually expect people to be amateurs and when caught violating that, be punished.

I don't know about where you live but where I live red light running is rampant, every cycle at an intersection I see it, even when traffic is light. It drives me nuts, and I'm sure everyone that gets a ticket says but everyone else is doing it too. My stance is if you know something is against the rules and you do it anyways, you can't complain when you get caught.

That is of course assuming this story is true.

 

[Russ Smith]

We both know that will be nearly impossible to prove and I doubt the NCAA is really that interested in bringing down the football program not named Notre Dame which probably makes them more money than any in the country.

Agreed, although if Yahoo and ESPN keep this in the news as much as they did Clarett and Ohio State it's going to be awfully hard for the NCAA to take no action.

 

[clif]

There's no perfect answer but put it this way, now that we know that Casserly as GM of the Texans actually confronted Bush about this before deciding not to draft him, one can only assume that was a "question of character" because obviously it in no way affected his draft status. A player could cheat nonstop in college and even if caught it wouldn't affect his draft status so we have to assume the reason the Texans asked is they considered it a character issue, if he'd do that in college, what will he do in the NFL with all the money we're going to pay him?

Obviously Bush isn't the only player out there taking money but that doesn't make it right.

I agree with you we all do things we shouldn't, the difference is if we get caught, nobody is going to say hey who cares if so and so cheats on his taxes we all do that let him go. If we get caught, we get punished.

With respect to this the thing that gets dicey is that if true, there's a pretty good argument that Bush or at least his stepfather and mother DID commit fraud here since they took money from an agent that they apparently had no intention of signing with(because Bush was already apparently committed to Ornstein). They also took 54K in free rent and repeatedly failed to make rent payments and then told Michaels they'd repay him when reggie went pro, its' alleged they haven't even done that.

To me the issue is pretty simple, college sports are huge business but that doesn't mean there's no going back. That doesn't mean that we can't actually expect people to be amateurs and when caught violating that, be punished.

I don't know about where you live but where I live red light running is rampant, every cycle at an intersection I see it, even when traffic is light. It drives me nuts, and I'm sure everyone that gets a ticket says but everyone else is doing it too. My stance is if you know something is against the rules and you do it anyways, you can't complain when you get caught.

That is of course assuming this story is true.

I understand what you're saying. My point is that if USC was 6-5 division II program no one would have cared. The morality police only care when they see someone on top. It only became wrong when USC was kicking the crap out of everyone. Sure it is against the rules, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with his family getting their debts paid off. If an agent was stupid enough to do it I would have taken the money as well. Your cousin or a friend loans you money so you take it and pay off your debts. How does that make you a bad person? It is so human nature to hate it when others succeed.

 

[Russ Smith]

I understand what you're saying. My point is that if USC was 6-5 division II program no one would have cared. The morality police only care when they see someone on top. It only became wrong when USC was kicking the crap out of everyone. Sure it is against the rules, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with his family getting their debts paid off. If an agent was stupid enough to do it I would have taken the money as well. Your cousin or a friend loans you money so you take it and pay off your debts. How does that make you a bad person? It is so human nature to hate it when others succeed.

Because it wasn't a cousin or friend, it was someone giving them money because their son was a college player. That's why a 6-5 team doesn't see this they probably don't have a guy on Bush' level.

And again, isn't it possible that the reason USC got back to the top so quickly is because of stuff like this? That program had been down for awhile, Carroll is an excellent coach and LA is loaded with talent but they were not dominating recruiting in the area at all until Carroll took over so you gotta wonder was Bush the only guy getting extra benefits or is that why USC's recruiting took a quantum leap?


To me it's the slippery slope, you can't allow this or it will just get worse.

FYI to semi contradict myself one of the big "net rumors" out there right now is that the NCAA is investigating Memphis over rumors DeAngelo Williams got all sorts of stuff last year that helped him decide to not go pro after his junior year(along with the broken leg). Memphis is a lesser profile program but apparently they're getting looked at too, just that Yahoo hasn't written a story on it yet.

 

[clif]

Here is an article that really puts how I feel into the right words:

Lost in all the silliness over Reggie Bush’s alleged ties to a sports marketing company during his time at USC is a simple, obvious truth that no one seems to want to acknowledge: it’s the blueprint for exactly how college sports should be run.

If it’s all true, Bush got paid, USC, the USC students, and the NCAA didn’t have to give up one thin dime, and no one, absolutely no one, got hurt in the process. Isn’t this how it should work?
It’s natural selection working out to perfection. The top players get compensated for being the top players, allowing some to stay in school if they so choose. The backup punter doesn’t have to be paid anything, and the schools and NCAA don’t lose any money. In fact, they’d make more since a player like Bush, or Vince Young, might stay in school another year if he was fronted a few million by an agent or marketing company. Imagine the ad revenue ABC would’ve brought in if VY had been playing in this year's game against Ohio State.
My plan has always been to allow players to have agents, sign deals with marketing companies, and do endorsement deals. Also, allow boosters to take the money and gifts they currently give to the players under the table and allow them put it out in the open. When I bring this up to anyone of significance in the college football world, the first objection is always, “then the competitive balance would completely be skewed. The big boys would always get the top talent because they could pay for it.”
1) As opposed to now? 2) Not necessarily.
Under my plan, you know exactly who’d dominate: rich programs like Texas, Notre Dame, Ohio State, USC, and Michigan. Who dominates now? Rich programs who have dominated for the last 35 years like Texas, Notre Dame, Ohio State, USC, and Michigan. But my plan is the only one that gives the lesser programs a shot.
We could play college football under its current system for the next 759 years and Oklahoma State wouldn’t be within 100 miles of the national title game. Take some of that T. Boone Pickens money and start doling it out to the players, and OSU is a national powerhouse in two seasons. The same goes for Idaho, Kent State, Florida Atlantic, and all the other little guys you can name if they can find a rich, goofy booster or three. SMU was a powerhouse in the 1980s when it was the best pro team in Dallas, and those days could return with the right boosters. The antiquated and naïve notion of amateurism in college football isn’t just a myth in today’s game, it never actually existed in the first place. And there’s nothing, NOTHING morally wrong with that. It’s fair for the players, it’s fair for the schools, and the NCAA would have a stronger, better product on the field.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/5982456