What Does It Take To Trade For A Center?

[George O'Brien]

After reviewing the NBA centers, I became even more discouraged aboutt he Suns chances of trading for a decent center. My conclusion is based partly on how few quality centers are out there, but also on the trading pieces the Suns have available.

Oddly enough, there has been a number of centers/tall PF's traded this summer. Unfortunately, the Suns were never really in a position to participate.

Christian Laettner (and Jerry Stackhouse) for Jamison: Laettner is a career underachiever with a reputation for being lockerroom poison, but he will give the Mavs a guy with a career 6.9 rpg average (but only 4.8 rpg last season in 20.8 minutes). Jamison is an outstanding player, but is overpaid with a very long contract, so Laettner's expiring contract in a salary dump was more important than his expected contribution.

Dale Davis and Dan Dickau in exchange for Nick Van Exel. The Blazers needed a backup PG and off the bench outside shooting, but only for an expiring contract. If the Blazers had been willing to take on a longer contract, they could have received more for Davis from another team, but by insisting on an expiring contract it meant NVE was the best they could hope for.

Tony Battie for Drew Gooden and Stephen Hunter: Tony Battie is a backup type center who is considered to be a good defender. He went to the Magic for PF Drew Gooden who was a #4 pick. Gooden has struggled on defense, but can score and rebound. The Cavs traded a backup center for a starting PF. Hunter may end up getting cut.

Calvin Booth for Danny Fortson: Booth has been disappointing with the Sonics and Fortson has been dissappointing for the Mavs. Booth is taller and can block shoots. Fortson is a "tough guy" PF who never really fit with Mavs who lacked a real center, but will get to play PF exclusively on the Sonics.

Kelvin Cato, Steve Francis and Mobley for Tracy McGrady and Juwan Howard. It is not clear Cato is even a center and was not a central part of the deal.

Derrick Coleman and Amal McCaskill for Corliss Williamson. Larry Brown likes Coleman even if no one else does. McCaskill has never done much. Williamson has his moments but is small for PF.

Trybanski went to the Bulls in the Crawford deal as if anyone cares.

Were there any "opportunities" the Suns missed? The Suns don't have a big expiring contract, so the Dale Davis deal was never really a possibility. I like Battie a lot, but Drew Gooden is younger with a lot more talent. Cato is horribly expensive and Laettner is an expensive liability. Coleman is an old, injury prone, bad attitude guy - ie just Larry Brown's type.

The simple truth is the Suns did not have the right trading pieces of any of these deals, much less for the guys they might have wanted. As might be expected, most deals are "big for big" or the center is a secondary piece (Laettner). The NVE deal is the only real exception, but it was a clear "need" deal on the part of the Blazers. Otherwise, it generally take trading a big man to get a big man.

 

[slinslin]

Too bad the Bulls have to wait 60 days to trade Mutombo in a package deal.

Bulls trade
Dikembe Mutombo
Tyson Chandler

Phoenix trades
Howard Eisley
Casey Jacobsen
Zarko Cabarkapa
Milos Vujanic
Chicago's draft pick

Chandler/Mutombo/Voshkul
Amare/Lampe/Vroman
Marion
Johnson/Q
Nash/Barbosa

Pickup one of the cheap G/F FAs like Wesley Person, Toni Kukoc.

 

[Mainstreet]

In my opinion, you have to get lucky in the draft or trade for a young athletic big man that has not fully developed with a lot of upside and hope he develops. That is why I pushed on Skita as a possibility because he has this upside (yes, I know everyone says he is a small forward) but he might be had reasonably. I don't care to argue the point whether he will make this transition to center but I would be willing to make this gamble. It's a role of the dice.This is also where you have to rely on your scouts, and yes luck, plays a significant role here as well in the projection of a player's development.

If Skita doe not develop as a center he should develop into a quality big man somewhere along the frontline. This same analogy could be used on another young developing big man. I'm not locked in on Skita but I think he has potential. The key is for the Suns not to gamble their future away. I am also hopeful Lampe develops but Lampe is only 19 and Skita is 21 and two years ahead in his development.

A decent center can also be had by giving up the nucleous or important parts of your team which I hope the Suns do not wish to do.

 

[coloradosun]

I think if Dice would not have been offered the contract he was by Detroit, he would have rounded out our frontline, especially since Shaq is gone.

If there is still a deal for a center and Marion is involved, my guess is that the Suns would hold out to announce it after the Olympics. One, just in case of injury for the trading partner (remember Longley and Australia) and two, to tell him to his face.

 

[SweetD]

Too bad the Bulls have to wait 60 days to trade Mutombo in a package deal.

Bulls trade
Dikembe Mutombo
Tyson Chandler

Phoenix trades
Howard Eisley
Casey Jacobsen
Zarko Cabarkapa
Milos Vujanic
Chicago's draft pick

Chandler/Mutombo/Voshkul
Amare/Lampe/Vroman
Marion
Johnson/Q
Nash/Barbosa

Pickup one of the cheap G/F FAs like Wesley Person, Toni Kukoc.

NO thank YOU!

 

[F-Dog]

I wonder what it would take to trade for Alonzo Mourning...

Eisley and cash is all the Suns can offer, but it should be enough, right?

 

[elindholm]

I suggested Mourning a week or two ago and nearly got laughed off the board. http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=34292

If he can play, my guess is that a pretty decent offer will come across. Eisley and cash won't be enough.

I'd vote for gambling now and trying to acquire him sooner rather than later. The risk isn't that great, since the Suns will be over the cap anyway and having Mourning around wouldn't impair their future flexibility.

 

[George O'Brien]

I suggested Mourning a week or two ago and nearly got laughed off the board. http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=34292

If he can play, my guess is that a pretty decent offer will come across. Eisley and cash won't be enough.

I'd vote for gambling now and trying to acquire him sooner rather than later. The risk isn't that great, since the Suns will be over the cap anyway and having Mourning around wouldn't impair their future flexibility.

I disagree. I don't think Mourning will ever play at a respectable level again. As for Eisley, he is almost untradeable now but will be very valuable next summer. Mourning means waiting another year before his contract becomes an expiring one.

 

[elindholm]

As for Eisley, he is almost untradeable now but will be very valuable next summer.

I'm not so sure. Yes, he'll be easier to trade, but for what? No one's going to give a good player away for free, and you just posted another lengthy thread about how it's hopeless to dream about trading Eisley for even a mediocre center.

How valuable was Gugliotta in the last year of his contract?

The expiring-contract gimmick is useful only if you're interested in adding more supplementary players to your team. The Suns have plenty of supplementary players now -- counting Barbosa, at least five quality players at the three small positions, and more if Jacobsen and/or Cabarkapa show that they belong. If Eisley's contract were expiring this year instead of next, what attractive trade options would the Suns have in front of them right now?

 

[George O'Brien]

As for Eisley, he is almost untradeable now but will be very valuable next summer.

I'm not so sure. Yes, he'll be easier to trade, but for what? No one's going to give a good player away for free, and you just posted another lengthy thread about how it's hopeless to dream about trading Eisley for even a mediocre center.

How valuable was Gugliotta in the last year of his contract?

The expiring-contract gimmick is useful only if you're interested in adding more supplementary players to your team. The Suns have plenty of supplementary players now -- counting Barbosa, at least five quality players at the three small positions, and more if Jacobsen and/or Cabarkapa show that they belong. If Eisley's contract were expiring this year instead of next, what attractive trade options would the Suns have in front of them right now?

Gimme a break. The Suns could have easily traded Googs IF they had been willing to take back a longer contract. The Suns wanted to save money, not get a valuable player. In that the Suns are no longer worrying about getting below the cap line, they can talk to anyone willing to give up value in a cap dump.

Looke at the Laettner deal. Jamison is vastly more valuable than the oft injured Stackhouse and the medicore Laettner. But by doing the deal, Dallas got out of half of the very expension Jamison contract.

Look at the Crawford to the Knicks deal. The key was the ability of the Bulls go get out of the Jerome Williams contract by making the deal for expiring contracts. Nothing else mattered to the Bulls.

If Eisley only had one year on his contract rather than two, I'm sure the Pacers would pay to have the Suns take Pollard with two years on his contract off their hands. They'd save $6 million in cash and cap space in 2006.

On a larger scale, if Eisley had only one year on his contract the Warriors MIGHT have taken him and Jacobsen for Dampier. No way they do it with two years.

 

[Joe Mama]

Eric, Alonzo Mourning is going to have to prove that he can stay healthy for a while before anybody is going to give anything decent to New Jersey for him.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Gimme a break. The Suns could have easily traded Googs IF they had been willing to take back a longer contract.

Right, sure. That's my point -- when the time comes to trade Eisley, the Suns' options will most likely be players they don't want. The reason the Suns weren't "willing" to take back a longer contract is that there weren't any quality players who fit their needs. That won't change when it's Eisley's turn.

Looke at the Laettner deal. Jamison is vastly more valuable than the oft injured Stackhouse and the medicore Laettner. But by doing the deal, Dallas got out of half of the very expension Jamison contract.

You don't think getting Biedrins (EDIT: Sorry, Harris) also had a lot to do with it? I sure do.

Look at the Crawford to the Knicks deal. The key was the ability of the Bulls go get out of the Jerome Williams contract by making the deal for expiring contracts.

I'm not sure how this fits into your argument. Are you saying that the Knicks were able to parlay their expiring contracts into landing Jerome Williams? That's not exactly a prime acquisition. And if one of the Knicks' short deals had two years instead of one, are you saying that would have been a deal breaker?

If your point is that teams like to get out from under long, overpaying contracts like the one Jerome Williams has, you'll get no argument from me.

If Eisley only had one year on his contract rather than two, I'm sure the Pacers would pay to have the Suns take Pollard with two years on his contract off their hands.

Could well be, but then nearly everyone on this board would be against the deal.

On a larger scale, if Eisley had only one year on his contract the Warriors MIGHT have taken him and Jacobsen for Dampier.

Absolutely no freaking way on earth. Probability zero. The Warriors have turned down far, far better offers than Casey Freaking Jacobsen for Dampier.

 

[elindholm]

Eric, Alonzo Mourning is going to have to prove that he can stay healthy for a while before anybody is going to give anything decent to New Jersey for him.

The way Antonio McDyess has?

 

[F-Dog]

If Eisley only had one year on his contract rather than two, I'm sure the Pacers would pay to have the Suns take Pollard with two years on his contract off their hands.

Could well be, but then nearly everyone on this board would be against the deal.

IIRC, what everybody on this board was against was including the Chicago draft pick. There's no point in giving up a valuable trade piece for a player who's got a good chance of waking up one day and never being able to play again.

I don't recall that anybody was against Eisley/Mourning straight up, but it's not our $5 million, is it?

 

[elindholm]

IIRC, what everybody on this board was against was including the Chicago draft pick....I don't recall that anybody was against Eisley/Mourning straight up

Hey, Mourning and Pollard might be the same player to you, bub, but some of us can tell the difference.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is not true that the only time teams do salary dumps is to get rid of bad players, although I'm sure that is often the case. For example, Jamison is a very good player with a big contract that was on a team which has $87 million in salaries. Atlanta moved Ratliff (along with SAR) in a deal for Sheed, because they wanted to dump salary and get below the cap.

BTW, the Williams example related to the Bulls strategy not the Knicks strategy. The Bulls preferred getting expiring contracts than getting useful players. Presumably, the Knicks got a useful player in Crawford by giving up expiring contracts and accepting Williams' contract.

 

[elindholm]

BTW, the Williams example related to the Bulls strategy not the Knicks strategy. The Bulls preferred getting expiring contracts than getting useful players.

Were there concrete reports that the Knicks offered useful players? I heard a bit of Kurt Thomas speculation, but not enough to make me think that he was ever really part of a proposal. I see it more as the Bulls using Crawford's RFA status to dump Williams, and not really caring what they got back, as long as they wouldn't be stuck with it for long.

 

[George O'Brien]

BTW, the Williams example related to the Bulls strategy not the Knicks strategy. The Bulls preferred getting expiring contracts than getting useful players.

Were there concrete reports that the Knicks offered useful players? I heard a bit of Kurt Thomas speculation, but not enough to make me think that he was ever really part of a proposal. I see it more as the Bulls using Crawford's RFA status to dump Williams, and not really caring what they got back, as long as they wouldn't be stuck with it for long.

After all the crap coming from the NY papers, I haven't a clue as to what really went on in those negotiations.

BTW, isn't Gambo from the New York?