What's With White?

George O'Brien

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Three days ago, I was figuring the Suns were about to move Jahidi. Certainly he had not shown much over the past month and a half. He had not played more than 20 minutes in a game since Jan 2nd. Prior to Friday, his previous games minutes he played was 10, 2, 4, 13, 16, and 14.

Then on Friday, he played 24 minutes and grabbed 13 rebounds. On Sunday he played 33 minutes and grabbed 5 rebounds - but held Shaq to only 5 rebounds.

After today's game, I wondered how many teams watched the ESPN broadcast and asked why they turned down the give aways the Suns were apparently offering.

Of course, White is a strange player. He looks and sometime plays like a defensive lineman. Like Jake, he suffers from the fact that the guards refuse to wait for him to set his feet before making their move. He is certainly not "graceful" and bobbles passes more often than catching them.

BUT, he is ranked #8 in the NBA in rebounds per minute played. Bill Walton on ESPN said White's defensive job against Shaq was second only to that of Yao. White's ability to block out helped the Suns to outreboudn the Lakers 39 to 33 (Amare had 12 boards and Shawn had 13).

Why hasn't White seen more action? He might not have received the minutes in the Memphis game if Voskuhl had not picked up so many fouls at the start of the game. In effect, D'Antoni was forced to play White and he did very well.

My guess is that D'Antoni likes Voskuhl because he is quicker, has more offensive skills, and plays with a lot of energy. Voskuhl is much better than White at double teaming people and doing switches. When White is in the lineup, the Suns have to adjust their defense and play more zone and straight man defense.
However, with the Suns defensive problem it is encouraging to be able to outrebound opponents: 49-48 against Memphis and 39-33 against the Lakers.

But this just opens up more questions. Will White get more playing time? What will happen this summer?

For a team that has won only 1 game in the last 10, it is hard to see how the combination of Voskuhl and small ball is actually working. White's ability to block out may be as important as his rebounding and he certainly changes the personality of the team. No one says the Suns are "soft" when White is in the lineup.

White is a guy who might very well benefit from simply playing more. He is actually more skilled than at the start of the season, but it is hard to show it when getting so few minutes.

But what happens this summer if White keeps playing well? One possibility is that the Bobcats would take him without any bribes. But if they don't, it is not clear that the Suns would not be better off holding on to him until they have a sustitute. The Suns could easily get draft picks and more if they wait until NEXT February when some team is looking for inside power and an expiring contract.

It would be nice to have him around just to watch some idiot try to take a charge from him. :D
 

Chris_Sanders

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I think it is time to showcase White so the Bobcats will look at taking him.
 
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George O'Brien

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
I think it is time to showcase White so the Bobcats will look at taking him.

Keeping that in mind, Eisley actually played a pretty good game agains the Lakers: 31 minutes, 5-9 shooting and 4 assists and 3 rebounds. Another encouraging thing was that he only shot two three's and hit one of them. Unfortunately he had 5 turnovers (there were 20 by the entire team).

I wish he weren't SO expensive, because it would be nice if Eisley went to the Bobcats and the Suns could keep White as trade bait.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Personally, I think White is as good as gone to the Cats. Like you said, it might not even take a bribe, but I will assume we send the cavs pick and some cash to guarantee they take him.

The Cats have a huge advantage with White ont he roster. First off, it gives them a decent center they may want to resign at a cheaper rate next summer. Also, like you said, his contract should be very valuable next feb. The risk is so low with him from the cats point of view.

I personally would love to move Eisley (obvious, I know), but unless BC pulls a Joe Dumars act this summer, I just don't see it happenning.
 

slinslin

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I have been told on general boards that they don't believe Charlotte will take White, at least not as a player.

White makes 6M$ and Charlotte can only have 25M$ or so in total cap I don't know if that is right however.
And Charlotte wants to be a FA player as well.

So most likely Phoenix would send a pick and 3M$ cash and Charlotte would waive White immediately meaning they would pay 2.8M$ which is the remaining amount on White's contract for a first round pick.

I have also been told that the Piston's Campbell has a smaller contract than White and a team option for the next year.

Well honestly I think Charlotte will take White. Colangelo isn't dumb enough to make all those moves without knowing that he can dump White on Charlotte.
 
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George O'Brien

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Originally posted by slinslin
I have been told on general boards that they don't believe Charlotte will take White, at least not as a player.

White makes 6M$ and Charlotte can only have 25M$ or so in total cap I don't know if that is right however.
And Charlotte wants to be a FA player as well.

So most likely Phoenix would send a pick and 3M$ cash and Charlotte would waive White immediately meaning they would pay 2.8M$ which is the remaining amount on White's contract for a first round pick.

I have also been told that the Piston's Campbell has a smaller contract than White and a team option for the next year.

Well honestly I think Charlotte will take White. Colangelo isn't dumb enough to make all those moves without knowing that he can dump White on Charlotte.

I had Campbell down as the most likely center the Bobcats would take. His contract is only for $4 million and he used to play in Charlotte when he was with the Hornets.

As for White, his value may be more as ballast in a trade than just for free agency. With a contract that has only one season left on it, his value increases the longer the Suns keep him.
 

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I think that the Suns better have a really good feeling about Kobe Bryant if they're going to just dump Jahidi White. There just isn't anyone available in free agency this summer other than Bryant that is worth giving away the draft picks and players with expiring contracts. Otherwise they might as well wait until next year when White's contract will expire anyways.

Joe Mama
 
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George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
I think that the Suns better have a really good feeling about Kobe Bryant if they're going to just dump Jahidi White. There just isn't anyone available in free agency this summer other than Bryant that is worth giving away the draft picks and players with expiring contracts. Otherwise they might as well wait until next year when White's contract will expire anyways.

Joe Mama

The "2005 Strategy" has a lot going for it. In 2005 White comes off contract, Eisley will have only one year left on his contract, Jacobsen would be a "team option player", the Suns will know if Lampe is a real center, and the young Suns will be much closer to being a serious playoff team. Even if the Suns extend JJ's contract, it would only put the team at no more than $28 to $30 million before moving Eisley.
 

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I know that most things that Walton says aren't on target but during the Lakers game broadcast he was raving about White's play against Shaq - and went on to say that he thought the WC teams that were contending for the title would love to have Jahidi as an anti-Shaq weapon. It's too bad it's too late to trade him to one of them this year but I wouldn't be a bit surprised one of them would be willing to trade for him next summer... we might even get a little bidding war going. Heck, even the Lakers might be interested. He'd be a big help to the Mavs all around. The Kings migh not be too interested but Minnesota sure should be. Even the Spurs could use him and he'd fit right in with their offense. Hmmmm, you know, if Divac leaves the Kings maybe they would be interested, too.
What about this - a draft day trade to the Mavs for Najera plus their first round pick, which we give to Utah - assuming Najera is healthy.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Originally posted by Errntknght

What about this - a draft day trade to the Mavs for Najera plus their first round pick, which we give to Utah - assuming Najera is healthy.

The problem with this is that does nothing for the suns salary cap flexibility. If White/Eisley doesn't go to the Bobcats or a team under the cap, then there is no chance of landing Kobe.

If White doesn't get moved to Charlotte, I would rather keep him. He would lop another 6 million off of our books in the summer of 2005. Also, he would most likely fetch something nice near the trading deadline next season.
 

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What about this - a draft day trade to the Mavs for Najera plus their first round pick, which we give to Utah - assuming Najera is healthy

Why would we give a draft pick to Utah?

:confused:
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by sunsfn
Why would we give a draft pick to Utah?

:confused:

I think he means if we get Dallas's first rounder, that would fulfill the obligation to them to get our "worst" first rounder.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Originally posted by sunsfn
Why would we give a draft pick to Utah?

:confused:

We owe them the worst pick we own this draft.

However, there hasn't been a clear answer to whether it is the worse between the Suns and NY pick, or between all the suns picks.

There was a little confusion over whether the suns would be able to send the Cle. pick if they made the playoffs and the knicks didn't
 
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George O'Brien

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Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
We owe them the worst pick we own this draft.

However, there hasn't been a clear answer to whether it is the worse between the Suns and NY pick, or between all the suns picks.

There was a little confusion over whether the suns would be able to send the Cle. pick if they made the playoffs and the knicks didn't

Or if the Suns traded with the Celtics and picked up three picks for the Suns lottery pick.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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True, but I dont see that happening at all. If the suns wanted 3 picks that badly, they would have been better off keeping theirs, the Knicks, and hoping the Cavs make the playoffs.

That would have given them a top 6 pick, the 14th pick and a pick in the 15-17 range. A much better selection than the Celts trio.
 
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George O'Brien

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Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
True, but I dont see that happening at all. If the suns wanted 3 picks that badly, they would have been better off keeping theirs, the Knicks, and hoping the Cavs make the playoffs.

That would have given them a top 6 pick, the 14th pick and a pick in the 15-17 range. A much better selection than the Celts trio.

Obviously the Suns wanted to the luxury tax money more.

In any case, the Suns are not going to do anything until the lottery. As long as there is a chance of getting one of the first two picks, that pick is golden.

But if they drop to #6 or #7, working a deal with the Celtics would make sense because most of the players the Suns might want would be available later at a lower price anyway.

It would not be totally impossible that BC and Ainge even talked about it. Danny's decision to load up on draft picks in a year with a weak draft might make sense if he knew he had a good chance to move up. At the same time, BC would not look like as much of an idiot as he does not if he knew he could pick up a late first round pick cheap.
 
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George O'Brien

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White had another impressive performance against the Knicks: 5 of 8 shooting, 7 rebounds, 1 blocked shot and only 2 fouls in 15 minutes.

For a while it had seemed that White was not being very productive, but these last three games have the best basketball he has played all year. If he stays out of foul trouble, White can be very productive. Lately, White has been playing better than Voskuhl.

I keep wondering what it would take to make White a 28-30 minute guy: off season running to get down to 275, work on catching the ball and passing, plus work on positioning and anticipation on defense. He might never be an outstanding center, but he has the potential of being an adequate one.

Take a look at the "adequate" centers in the NBA. Most veterans make more than White, in some cases a lot more. I'm guessing that after next season, the Suns could probably sign White for under $3 million a year. Even if he only played against power centers, that is an extremely valuable role.

I would really like to find a way to keep White on the team. If the Bobcats take him without a bribe, I would actually be disappointed. But I would hate to pat to get rid of White only to find that Kobe stays in LA anyway.

In another thread I mentioned an alternative scenerio where the Suns could keep White and Eisley and still big on Kobe:

Assuming the cap is raised to $47 million, the Suns current committments of $33.85 million would be $13.1 million. They can maintain that level only if the Suns trade their draft picks for future draft picks, so the guaranteed salaries would not be counted against their cap. (Perhaps drafting a foreign player who is under contract in Europe does not count either since Delfino of the Pistons is not listed on their contract list).

If the Suns delay signing Vujanic until they know if Kobe will actually be available and wait on signing Dice to a veteran minimum, the Suns could use the entire $13 million for a bid.

If the Suns absolutely had to get a bit more cap space, it would not be hard to sell Jacobsen to the Hawks to clear another million, but I'm not counting on it.

I am unclear about what the Suns would be allowed to offer Vujanic under this scenerio. At worst, the Suns wait until the following summer.

Here is the result:

C - Voskuhl, White, Lampe
PF - Stoudemire, McDyess
SF - Marion, Carbakapa
PG - Johnson, Barbosa, Eisley
SG - Bryant, Jacobsen

The following summer, Eisely would only have one year left on his contract, he could be traded for more inside help if Lampe is slow in developing or Dice leaves, with Eisley being replaced by Vujanic.

White is not a great player, but the Suns need someone who can play that role. This scenerio looks a lot more promising than "hoping" to find a cheap replacement center for veteran minimum.
 

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What's With White

I heard it's the new black! :D (Sorry, guess I've been watching too many Trading Spaces and Queer Eye episodes!!)
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by George O'Brien


C - Voskuhl, White, Lampe
PF - Stoudemire, McDyess
SF - Marion, Carbakapa
PG - Johnson, Barbosa, Eisley
SG - Bryant, Jacobsen

Realistic or not, I actually really like that lineup. Not sure where Vujanic would fit, because for all intents and purposes, it looks like he IS coming to Phoenix this summer. I'm not sure they will delay signing him. If we end up losing McDyess, we could get him, but man, that would leave a pretty thin frontcourt. Z and Lampe would get a ton of minutes that way.
 
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George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Chaplin
Realistic or not, I actually really like that lineup. Not sure where Vujanic would fit, because for all intents and purposes, it looks like he IS coming to Phoenix this summer. I'm not sure they will delay signing him. If we end up losing McDyess, we could get him, but man, that would leave a pretty thin frontcourt. Z and Lampe would get a ton of minutes that way.

I don't really understand what the Suns can and cannot do in paying second round draft picks. It is my understanding that Vujanic does not need a paid buyout to come to the Suns, but what happens if the Suns are ove cap? How much can they pay?

Even with Vujanic, the Suns would only have 13 players under contract. There is almost always someone who is on IR because he is actually injured. :D

BTW, this lineup shows why keeping Dice would be nice. Neither Carbakapa nor Lampe are certain to be productive next season, so having Dice to fill in would be extremely valuable. A "small ball" with Dice and Amare, Marion, Johnson, and Kobe would present some interesting defensive problems for opponents.:D
 
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