Whis & Warner Debate Who Made Who?

[Gee!]

Im starting to hate all the Whis hate on hear lately.. Especially the notion that Warner made Whis a good coach.. It hasnt even been a full year since Warner has been gone and people calling for Whis' head.. Im not gonna do that..

Warner was on this team before Whis got here and was pretty much an average streaky QB.. When Whis got here he got the best out of Warner.. I mean, go look at Warners stats under Denny and then Whis.. That should be all you need.. Or even go look at our records with Warner under Denny and then Whis..

I was the biggest Warner ball jocker when we first signed him even had one of the first Warner jerseys amongst my friends.. Right away.. But you Warner ball jockers these days need to calm down please..

Parcells, Fischer, Cowher and Dungy.. Three great coaches didnt have great records every year.. Cowher even had to suck balls for a couple years after getting smoke by the Cowboys in Super Bowl in AZ.. But Cards fans knee jerk reactions want to run out the most successful coach weve ever had.. Thats scary..

I believe Warner and Whis were a perfect match.. Whis knew how to use him and Warner excelled.. I'll let you decide what that means.. And dont chose the dumb thought.. Cuz you know deep in you what Im saying.. Im just not chose sides..

We are transitioning.. This year sucks.. For sure.. But all is not lost.. This isnt a total colassal mess where we need to blow up the whole damn thing.. Give it some time..

Some of you Cards fans have become so prissy like you demand excellence like our 2 year NFC West dominace suggests you have every right.. << Thats was kinda a joke.. haha

Now if youll excuse me.. I have a new born beer to attend to.. Its crying for attention..

Be good Cards Nation..

 

[Catfish]

Gee, I'm glad you settled all that. For awhile there I thought that Warner had his best year here when Haley was the OC, but according to you, it surely must have been Whiz. Yeah, I guess Whiz's long range OC work when Warner was with St.Louis was working for him then too. Gee its good that you cleared all that stuff up.

 

[Gee!]

Gee, I'm glad you settled all that. For awhile there I thought that Warner had his best year here when Haley was the OC, but according to you, it surely must have been Whiz. Yeah, I guess Whiz's long range OC work when Warner was with St.Louis was working for him then too. Gee its good that you cleared all that stuff up.

No problem man.. You ready for tomorrows game? I am..

 

[Gee!]

Gee, I'm glad you settled all that. For awhile there I thought that Warner had his best year here when Haley was the OC, but according to you, it surely must have been Whiz. Yeah, I guess Whiz's long range OC work when Warner was with St.Louis was working for him then too. Gee its good that you cleared all that stuff up.

BTW.. Whis was the Coordinator last year.. Haley was in KC and Warner still was putting up numbers and the Cards still went to the playoffs and still won a game in them.. Even though it was said the SuperBowl loser cant make the playoffs the next year much less win a game..

 

[vince56]

BTW.. Whis was the Coordinator last year.. Haley was in KC and Warner still was putting up numbers and the Cards still went to the playoffs and still won a game in them.. Even though it was said the SuperBowl loser cant make the playoffs the next year much less win a game..

Warner also had arguably his best game ever last year against Green Bay in the first round throwing more TDs than incompletions and helping the team put up 51 points.

 

[desertdawg]

Well they both made it to the superbowl prior to being on the Cards. So that says a lot, I don't think either one made the other, more like they complemented each other quite well. I love me some Whiz, and can see him turning it back around at some point.

He has my loyalty as a fan, but the fan in me hopes he changes things up soon. The only thing that blew up for me was my play off hopes this season, which has a lot to do with our QB situation. That doesn't make Whiz a bad coach in my eyes, it is very hard to be successful with out a decent QB.

 

[moklerman]

I'm skeptical of Whis and "his" offense. It's always been a problem since he's been here. And just to be clear, Warner put on the glove the last 1+ games of '06 before Whis and was immediately looking a lot more like his old self. Whis and Haley forced him to focus on ball protection but it was a symbiotic relationship to be sure. Warner pushed hard for what he thought the offense should be and Whis and Haley modified their scheme.

 

[desertdawg]

I'm skeptical of Whis and "his" offense. It's always been a problem since he's been here. And just to be clear, Warner put on the glove the last 1+ games of '06 before Whis and was immediately looking a lot more like his old self. Whis and Haley forced him to focus on ball protection but it was a symbiotic relationship to be sure. Warner pushed hard for what he thought the offense should be and Whis and Haley modified their scheme.

Come on now, we did not score Warner while he was MVP. That was "the year 2000"

Whiz and Warner and Haley all get respect for our superbowl run, to think less is uncivilized. To say any one of them did not contribute or weren't a major factor is just sideways talk for saying I wish we still had all three.

Warner and Haley are long gone. Whiz is still here, give him a QB and we will light it up again.

 

[Shane]

I take Whiz.

 

[Duckjake]

I take Whiz.

Me too.

Denny Green and Kurt Warner had the #1 ranked passing offense in the NFL in 2005.

They won 5 games.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

BTW.. Whis was the Coordinator last year.. Haley was in KC and Warner still was putting up numbers and the Cards still went to the playoffs and still won a game in them.. Even though it was said the SuperBowl loser cant make the playoffs the next year much less win a game..

Agree. But a lot of people seem to forget that.

1. Warner sucked when he first came to AZ.

2. Whiz comes in, and WHIZ BRINGS IN HALEY AS OC, they make Warner a better QB in his old age.

3. Warner, with his new found style, plays at an All-pro level.

4. Haley leaves, and the Cardinals still go to the playoffs with Warner.

5. Warner, Boldin, and Danbsy leave. Now we suck.

Yes, I think Boldin, who thrives in extending drives, is the biggest part of our offensive drop off. Never ever should have traded him.

 

[moklerman]

1. Warner sucked when he first came to AZ.

Little too much blanket on that statement. He couldn't grip the ball to be sure but that's where his problems started and stopped. He could still read a defense and was still accurate with the ball. Like I said, once he put on the glove, he was back to his old self.

2. Whiz comes in, and WHIZ BRINGS IN HALEY AS OC, they make Warner a better QB in his old age.

Geez, you're glossing over things a bit aren't you? Whiz came in, brought Haley and promptly named Leinart the starter. Whis and Haley install an offense that sucked lemons any time they tried to run it in '07 & '08. Whis starts a QB rotation, giving Warner the no-huddle package and that offense starts to put points on the board. Leinart gets hurt and Whis/Haley are forced to go with Warner. Warner promptly dislocated his elbow and the Whis/Haley are forced to go with Warner's offense. The have no choice but to run an offense that he is comfortable with because he's only got 1 arm and basically has to run everything out of the shotgun for a few weeks.

That was when they all saw how effective a pass-first, "Warner" offense could be with the personnel on hand and that was when Whis began to modify what he was doing on offense.

Yes, I think Boldin, who thrives in extending drives, is the biggest part of our offensive drop off. Never ever should have traded him.

You'd rather have Boldin back than Warner? I think the extended amount of success the Cardinals had without Boldin but with Warner the last couple of years would contradict the premise that Boldin is the biggest part of the offensive dropoff.

 

[Zeno]

You'd rather have Boldin back than Warner? I think the extended amount of success the Cardinals had without Boldin but with Warner the last couple of years would contradict the premise that Boldin is the biggest part of the offensive dropoff.

Agreed 100%. A good QB would make this offense click with the current offensive team around him. Add Boldin to this years team and the offense still stinks.

 

[Shane]

Rugby I am the biggest Boldin fan ever. Yet I would rather have Warner here than Boldin. If Warner is QBing this current team as is we are still winning the division.

But if you had Boldin with these QB's? Yea we are still in trouble.

Now if you offered me door B which allowed us to have both of them back I would jump all over it

 

[BigRedMO]

When Warner is QB and Whiz is HC they go to Super Bowl. With Whiz as HC and Warner not the QB they suck the sweat off a dead man's balls. That is hard for me to for an opinion on. The bigger question is who cares?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Little too much blanket on that statement. He couldn't grip the ball to be sure but that's where his problems started and stopped. He could still read a defense and was still accurate with the ball. Like I said, once he put on the glove, he was back to his old self.

First off.

I am NOT getting into this with you. It is a moot point, and there is a War and Peace worth of thread about your views on Warner.

If you don't think he sucked when he first got here, then you must think Anderson is playing solid right now.

Warner's game versus the Rams was atroucious, and that was one of many.

I know you won't see it that way, I don't expect you to see it that way, and the guy is retired so I am not going to argue with someone who is proven to be a Pro-Warner guy regardles of anything. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The guy is retired, it is my opinion so leave it at that. I don't have the patience to quarrel for 52 pages about this anymore.

We can agree he is going in the HOF.


And for those who want, ask for and need more in depth:

Little too much blanket on that statement. He couldn't grip the ball to be sure but that's where his problems started and stopped. He could still read a defense and was still accurate with the ball. Like I said, once he put on the glove, he was back to his old self.
Geez, you're glossing over things a bit aren't you?.

Agreed it is a blanket statement. The guy could still pass. IMO, his fumbles were costly & plentiful (10 fumbles in 5 games in 2006), and he threw INT's and crucial times (St. Louis game 2006). Whiz and staff put an emphasis on ball security. That is part of coaching. You can either give them that respect or not. That is in everyone's opinion whether they want to see it that way.

Whiz came in, brought Haley and promptly named Leinart the starter. Whis and Haley install an offense that sucked lemons any time they tried to run it in '07 & '08. Whis starts a QB rotation, giving Warner the no-huddle package and that offense starts to put points on the board. Leinart gets hurt and Whis/Haley are forced to go with Warner. Warner promptly dislocated his elbow and the Whis/Haley are forced to go with Warner's offense. The have no choice but to run an offense that he is comfortable with because he's only got 1 arm and basically has to run everything out of the shotgun for a few weeks.

That was when they all saw how effective a pass-first, "Warner" offense could be with the personnel on hand and that was when Whis began to modify what he was doing on offense.

Fair enough.

But Warner came to the Cardinals in 2005. If we are talking about "glossing over" then why is the 2005 and 2006 season wiped out of the conversations ? Just statin', not hatin'

2005: GS: 10, Record 2-8, 11 TD, 9 INT, and 5 fumbles lost, 9 fumbles total
2006: GS: 5 Record: 1-4, 6 TD, 5 INT and 3 fumbles lost, 10 fumbles total

Those are some bad stats and bad records. In my very humble opinion of course. If sucked is too hard a word, I will say not good, poor, or unacceptable. And I didn't even bring to the table his 2002, 2003, and 2004 season with the Rams and Giants (12 fumbles in 10 games with the Giants in 2004, 11 INT's in 7 games with the Rams in 2002).

Back to talking about what was said, and not "tirading"

2007 Whiz/Haley decided on the split QB thing. That is a coaching decision. It got Warner on the field. Warner took it from there, and is an understatement. Probably the best Warner ever played in his life......with one arm.

In 2008 Matt Leinart was named the starter in the offseason. Whiz then made Warner the starter once he beat our Leinart in camp. Again, I see that as a coaching decision. Warner earned that spot, but it took the coach to make the decision.

Sidenote: Outside of this discussion. Since we are talking of old times, his season playing one armed was my favorite memory of Warner. More than any win, or game.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Your finest work yet Gee.

 

[kerouac9]

First off.

I am NOT getting into this with you. It is a moot point, and there is a War and Peace worth of thread about your views on Warner.

If you don't think he sucked when he first got here, then you must think Anderson is playing solid right now.

Warner's game versus the Rams was atroucious, and that was one of many.

I know you won't see it that way, I don't expect you to see it that way, and the guy is retired so I am not going to argue with someone who is proven to be a Pro-Warner guy regardles of anything. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The guy is retired, it is my opinion so leave it at that. I don't have the patience to quarrel for 52 pages about this anymore.

We can agree he is going in the HOF.

That's unfair, Rugby. Even in 2006, Warner had games where he posted QB ratings of 114.8 (season opener) and 116.1 (season closer). In 2005, five of his 10 starts had a QB rating over 85.

Warner was maddeningly inconsistent and fumble-prone before Whis got here, but he wasn't a bad quarterback. Except sometimes when he'd put up stinkbombs. Which he did after Whis got here, as well.

 

[Mulli]

Who cares? Either way Cards need a new QB.

 

[conraddobler]

I don't blame Whiz entirely for this year.

He's lost players that hurt a lot and it's not solely his duty to keep the roster stocked with players, in fact that's not really his duty at all, other than he must have some input into it.

There's many layers to how we got where we are, most of those layers I trace directly back to the GM level.

If a person was being completely honest, I think once Warner retired, we just decided to fold up the tents and muddle through to the lockout and beyond, planning on reloading after that, JMO.

Even so we didn't have to be this bad, but if we were going to be, do it right and lock up the first draft choice you knuckleheads, this team can't even get losing right.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That's unfair, Rugby.

Life ain't fair.

My goodness times have changed. I remember this K9 guy that would call me a fool for such things....

Fair enough. I don't remember him doing to much for us before Whiz got here.

And fumbles don't count in QB ratings.

His INT from the 1 yard line to Dexter Coakley will ever be imprinted on my mind. Funny it is what undid him in the Superbowl as well.

I like-wise find it unfair to take credit away from Whiz, and Haley for what they did with pretty much the same roster as Denny Green.

Whiz has his definite faults right now, and had LOADS of bad personel decisions to deal with and account for. But, to throw away his effect on this team in 2008 and 2009 is justly unfair.

 

[Mitch]

Both Whiz and Warner deserve high praise.

Whiz was smart in giving Warner the proper input and tapped into Warner's experience (that is when Whiz wasn't proclaiming Leinart as the starter)...and...in particular, Whiz helped turn Warner into a red zone dynamo (which he struggled mightily with in previous years).

Warner did all the right communicating in practice and in games to get the offense in tune and clicking...and he was a master at beating the blitz...tough as nails too.

Whiz likes to give the players some autonomy...he ultimately wants them to take ownership...but some players aren't able to handle it, as they have a hard time thinking on their feet.

That's part of the issue with DA...it seems he needs everything choreographed for him...like the plays on his wrist...no audibles to Fitz when he was in single coverage, and taking a dive in the face of the blitz.

 

[kerouac9]

Life ain't fair.

My goodness times have changed. I remember this K9 guy that would call me a fool for such things....

Fair enough. I don't remember him doing to much for us before Whiz got here.

And fumbles don't count in QB ratings.

His INT from the 1 yard line to Dexter Coakley will ever be imprinted on my mind. Funny it is what undid him in the Superbowl as well.

I like-wise find it unfair to take credit away from Whiz, and Haley for what they did with pretty much the same roster as Denny Green.

Whiz has his definite faults right now, and had LOADS of bad personel decisions to deal with and account for. But, to throw away his effect on this team in 2008 and 2009 is justly unfair.

There were a lot of bad times with Warner under center for us. A lot of very bad times. But to say that he stunk when he was here misstates the point. He never had a QB rating below 85.8 during his tenure as a Cardinal, never went under 7 YPA. He was a good quarterback who one some games for us and totally torpedoed some others. He was fumble-prone here before and after Whisenhunt's arrival (averaged more than 11 fumbles a season when he was working with Whis), but in 2006 his fumbles and turnovers were costing a team that had a relatively good and talented defense, and so they had to hand the keys over to the rook who couldn't win games, but could maybe manage them.

I think that Warner's personality clicked with Whiz AND Haley, and Warner pretty much had the offense to himself once Haley left. I don't really have a problem with Whis as a coach--I think that's overstated. My problem is when he's put his hands in personnel decisions things have been... problematic. Too much authority, too soon. And there wasn't really a check on him in Graves.

 

[moklerman]

If you don't think he sucked when he first got here, then you must think Anderson is playing solid right now.

I wish you would at least respond to what was actually written before going off on a tirade.

Your abridged history of what happened was so far off though...please don't try and pass the blame to me by acting like my point of view is that of the lunatic fringe. My version is much closer to the actual events than yours.

Just for you, I will restate. Warner's problems in '05(and '02, '03, '04 & "most" of '06) when he got to the Cardinals started and stopped with his inability to hold onto the ball. He could still pass, he could still read a defense, he just couldn't grip the ball. It was problematic to the point of him not even being able to take snaps from center with relative security.

All of his problems stemmed from there. I really don't see why you feel compelled to argue about that. It isn't an indictment against Whis. It doesn't discount what Whis and Haley did help Warner with. But Warner adopting the glove, on his own, was the biggest factor in him being able to stay on the field as a full time starter.

But the fact also remains that Whis didn't choose him as the starter nor did he choose him as a reclamation project. He didn't reinvent him either. He forced him to be less risky with the ball. And that is a good thing and it was what the Cardinals needed.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I wish you would at least respond to what was actually written before going off on a tirade.

Your abridged history of what happened was so far off though...please don't try and pass the blame to me by acting like my point of view is that of the lunatic fringe. My version is much closer to the actual events than yours.

Just for you, I will restate. Warner's problems in '05(and '02, '03, '04 & "most" of '06) when he got to the Cardinals started and stopped with his inability to hold onto the ball. He could still pass, he could still read a defense, he just couldn't grip the ball. It was problematic to the point of him not even being able to take snaps from center with relative security.

All of his problems stemmed from there. I really don't see why you feel compelled to argue about that. It isn't an indictment against Whis. It doesn't discount what Whis and Haley did help Warner with. But Warner adopting the glove, on his own, was the biggest factor in him being able to stay on the field as a full time starter.

But the fact also remains that Whis didn't choose him as the starter nor did he choose him as a reclamation project. He didn't reinvent him either. He forced him to be less risky with the ball. And that is a good thing and it was what the Cardinals needed.

I have responded to what was written, and I can say the same statement to you on many a post (putting out a "tirade" with no regard on what has been said) on this subject. In a show of respect I went back edited my first "tirade" as you put it with some of my more in depth thinking. But, that will be as far as I take it.

We have been through this over, and over and over and over and over and over again. There are threads a plenty with you and I going back and forth. I don't care if you call what I say a tirade or that I am "so far off", it is old and stale. Ho, Hum. Moklerman is defending Warner again, with "passion". What is new. While it is respected, and I do say that with sinerity, you cannot say that we have not been over this 50 times over.

You say that your version is correct. I say my version is correct. . You say I am far off, I say your skewed for the love of a player. Been there done that.

You guys want to quote ratings, and I want to talk about turnovers and wins.

Ugh... here it is again. I am stopping it right now. Just go back to one of the fifty debates between you and I, and it is all there.

No disrespect on any of this, just saying we have already agreed to disagree let's please leave it at that.

Just don't have the want or the time to hash it out all over again (eventhough in this case, out of respect I took the time to do so). And I am not going to roll over and accept thinks that, IMHO (OPINION), are just not true or accurate.

About 1 year we agreed to disagree on the situation, so I am trying leave it at that between you and I on this situation.

A stand by my original list of events. I see them as accurate and true regardless of little jabs and nudges to get me back into the debate. And I am sure you will stand by yours regardless of what I state.

Again, agree to disagree

I will only talk to you about Warner's pending HOF induction. Where and when. And maybe his spot on the Top 100 list. Since I think that is somewhere, where would we not be stalemated again each other.