Why Gaines Adams Scares Me

[SMAC]

For some reason I feel Gaines Adams won't be an all-pro and could be a bust. My heart tells me he is overrated and will be a non-factor in the running game and will be a so so pass rusher. I just don't know if he is worthy to be the fifth pick in the draft. If he is the player the Cardinals are targeting I hope I'm wrong on my assessment. For some reason I'm inclined to trade down for additional picks. Is Adams a stud or a paper tiger?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I completely agree.

I hate the Simeon Rice type DE's.

If they have a good year they get about 12 sacks. But they are non-existant in the running game.

 

[kerouac9]

I completely agree.

I hate the Simeon Rice type DE's.

If they have a good year they get about 12 sacks. But they are non-existant in the running game.

Yeah, who needs guys like Dwight Freeney, Jevon Kearse, KGB, and Simeon Rice? All those losers do is average 10 sacks per season. Sacks are totally overrated, especially when they get in the QBs head after the first quarter.

I'd much rather have a guy like Calvin Pace, who doesn't do anything against the pass, but kind of forces the run somehow.

 

[joeshmo]

If they have a good year they get about 12 sacks. But they are non-existant in the running game.

I think that is an over simplistic view of what they do.

It isnt just Sacks. Its also QB hits, QB pressures, forcing bad throws for INT's, Forced Fumbles, Getting the QB out of rythm, Makes your DB's better, Tackles for loss, and so on.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think that is an over simplistic view of what they do.

It isnt just Sacks. Its also QB hits, QB pressures, forcing bad throws for INT's, Forced Fumbles, Getting the QB out of rythm, Makes your DB's better, Tackles for loss, and so on.

Yep, and how many false starts does a great pass rusher cause?

Sure you'd like the guy to be able to play the run too, but great pass rushers have a huge impact on the game.

I haven't seen enough of either Adams or Anderson to have a favorite, Anderson's size is intriguing but Adams had the great 40 time and apparently was really impressive in the shuttle and cone drills.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Yep, and how many false starts does a great pass rusher cause?

Sure you'd like the guy to be able to play the run too, but great pass rushers have a huge impact on the game.

I haven't seen enough of either Adams or Anderson to have a favorite, Anderson's size is intriguing but Adams had the great 40 time and apparently was really impressive in the shuttle and cone drills.

I agree!

All you have to do is replay the Oakland game to see how important a stud pass rusher is. Oakland had a terrible Offensive line and we didn't even come close to rattling Walter. We made him look like an all pro because he had so much time to survey the field.

I'm in the draft Gaines Adams corner now.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree!

All you have to do is replay the Oakland game to see how important a stud pass rusher is. Oakland had a terrible Offensive line and we didn't even come close to rattling Walter. We made him look like an all pro because he had so much time to survey the field.

I'm in the draft Gaines Adams corner now.

Yep and the other reason we lost that game was Derrick Burgess was blocked one on one and he just completely destroyed Ross and was in Matt's face so often Matt got flustered. Great pass rushers can completely change a game.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Yeah, who needs guys like Dwight Freeney, Jevon Kearse, KGB, and Simeon Rice? All those losers do is average 10 sacks per season. Sacks are totally overrated, especially when they get in the QBs head after the first quarter.

I'd much rather have a guy like Calvin Pace, who doesn't do anything against the pass, but kind of forces the run somehow.

How did I know that you were going to say that ?

Dwight Freeney is the only guy out of that group that I see hold his own against the run.

KGB, Kearse, Rice ? I don't like any of these players or there styles. Maybe it is an age issue more than a style, cause once their sack numbers drop off they are, IMO, worthless. You can throw Okeafor in this group as well eventhough he is a Cardinal and had a decent year last year.

I think this is a matter of style and philosophy. I personally like seeing a bigger body out on the line. And the Julius Peppers of the world are few and far between. I guess it is a take what you can get type deal.

Calvin Pace ? Ugh. No. If I am sure of anything I don't want an undersized DE that cannot play the run or pass.

This is a great topic, BTW. DE is a very very strange position in the NFL and have a wide range of players that are put in the position.

 

[CardinalChris]

That's strange since Kearse hasn't has 12 sacks since 2000 and double digits since 2003, KGB hasn't hit double digits since 2003, and 12 sacks since 2002, Rice has been more consistent with 1 10+ sacks season in the past 3 years, and even Freeney has had 1 12+ sack in his career.

I'd rather take a well rounded player at #5 and draft a situational/tweener guy. You also are going under the assumption that Gaines is in the class of those players, which is debatable. Assuming scouts believe this, I'd take 10 sacks and run defense over 12 sacks and a liability against the run. Jamaal Anderson anyone?

By the way, it is silly to compare Gaines to those players and then say Pace is the alternative. There is a LARGE area in between those players.

 

[kerouac9]

How did I know that you were going to say that ?

Dwight Freeney is the only guy out of that group that I see hold his own against the run.

KGB, Kearse, Rice ? I don't like any of these players or there styles. Maybe it is an age issue more than a style, cause once their sack numbers drop off they are, IMO, worthless. You can throw Okeafor in this group as well eventhough he is a Cardinal and had a decent year last year.

I think this is a matter of style and philosophy. I personally like seeing a bigger body out on the line. And the Julius Peppers of the world are few and far between. I guess it is a take what you can get type deal.

Calvin Pace ? Ugh. No. If I am sure of anything I don't want an undersized DE that cannot play the run or pass.

This is a great topic, BTW. DE is a very very strange position in the NFL and have a wide range of players that are put in the position.

But Julius Peppers plays the other side, so I'm not sure that they're even comperable. I mean, you have guys like Osi Umenyora, but he's not a great run defender, either. And, as you say, it's really difficult to find those players.

Dwight Freeney is a huge liability against the run. He gets engulfed or caught out of position all the time. His quickness allows him to disrupt the run in the backfield, but that happens with guys like Rice and Kearse, too. But you can run right at him and be successful.

The reason that you don't notice it as much with Freeney is because the Colts are usually ahead in games and teams don't have the opportunity to keep running at Freeney over and over again (as the Bears should have done in the Super Bowl).

The problem is that with guys like Carricker and Anderson that they're better at fighting through traffic then they are a getting around the tackle with quickness. It's easier to get around an RT, which is why LDEs tend to be a little slower, but they also have to be stronger to disengage from that blocker.

 

[kerouac9]

That's strange since Kearse hasn't has 12 sacks since 2000 and double digits since 2003, KGB hasn't hit double digits since 2003, and 12 sacks since 2002, Rice has been more consistent with 1 10+ sacks season in the past 3 years, and even Freeney has had 1 12+ sack in his career.

Um... Simeon Rice has averaged 11 sacks per season his entire career. In 2004 he had 12 sacks, in 2005 he had 14. Last season he had 2, but only appeared in 8 games.

Kearse has averaged 8 sacks per season in his career, but he's not really used as an RDE in Philly. He's more of a blitzing linebacker and they use him on the left side of the defense pretty frequently. Even in that role he's managed to average over 6 sacks per season in Philly.

KGB has averaged 10.5 sacks per season since he became a full-time starter in 2001. Yes, his sack stats have dropped off the last two seasons, but that's also a period when the Packers have become much less efficient on offense, and there are less opportunities to rush the passer.

I understand that there's a gap in talent between Dwight Freeney and Calvin Pace. But I'm interested in hearing the arguments about what other kinds of players that you're talking about here. Certainly not guys like Richard Seymour, who is a DT essentially. KVB? He sucked when he was here, and settled back into mediocrity this season with a middling 6.5 sacks.

 

[WildBB]

The problem is that with guys like Carricker and Anderson that they're better at fighting through traffic then they are a getting around the tackle with quickness. It's easier to get around an RT, which is why LDEs tend to be a little slower, but they also have to be stronger to disengage from that blocker.

That's the argument for taking guys like Carricker or Anderson. They are stout and not caught out of position like the quick ends are so often. Indeed the way the quick ends play they HAVE TO be out of position on obvious passing downs and can be exploited. We need more consistency not less. Those guys (Anderson,Okoye,Carriker) can also bring it, but in a different and more disciplined way.

 

[CardinalChris]

Um... Simeon Rice has averaged 11 sacks per season his entire career. In 2004 he had 12 sacks, in 2005 he had 14. Last season he had 2, but only appeared in 8 games.
So he has only had double digit sacks once in 3 years... I thought that was what I posted.

QUOTE]

The point was that there is another option who may be a better overall player and get 10 sacks instead of 12 per year, but still play the run (Jamaal Anderson).

the other problem i have is speed rush guys who tend to be smallish don't last too long when they play DE. Ends take a beating on their legs playing against guys who outweigh them by 75+ pounds. Once a speed rusher's legs are gone, it is a quick slide down. I am thinking Adams may not be enough of a "sure-fire" prospect to make his liability (according to most reports) against the run to make him better than Anderson.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I think he is a great player to have. But I dont think that our defense is dominent enough yet to take him. I see him in the mold of Rice and Terrell Suggs. Say what you guys want about our avoiding Suggs in the draft, but I think it was the right move. These type players cannot be everydown players unless the rest of the line is great. Rice wasn't great until he went to Tampa where they had Sapp and McFarland to help un run support. Suggs was very situational the past few years for the Ravens.

 

[cardsfanmd]

That's the argument for taking guys like Carricker or Anderson. They are stout and not caught out of position like the quick ends are so often. Indeed the way the quick ends play they HAVE TO be out of position on obvious passing downs and can be exploited. We need more consistency not less. Those guys (Anderson,Okoye,Carriker) can also bring it, but in a different and more disciplined way.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[kerouac9]

Um... Simeon Rice has averaged 11 sacks per season his entire career. In 2004 he had 12 sacks, in 2005 he had 14. Last season he had 2, but only appeared in 8 games.
So he has only had double digit sacks once in 3 years... I thought that was what I posted.

The point was that there is another option who may be a better overall player and get 10 sacks instead of 12 per year, but still play the run (Jamaal Anderson).

the other problem i have is speed rush guys who tend to be smallish don't last too long when they play DE. Ends take a beating on their legs playing against guys who outweigh them by 75+ pounds. Once a speed rusher's legs are gone, it is a quick slide down. I am thinking Adams may not be enough of a "sure-fire" prospect to make his liability (according to most reports) against the run to make him better than Anderson.

Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. Read the post again. Simeon Rice has had 10+ sack years two of the past three years. Last season he only had 2, but he only played in 8 games. He's averaged over 10 sacks per season for 11 years. We'd be lucky if Gaines Adams had that kind of production, and I'd welcome it.

You act like 10+ sacks per year guys are a dime a dozen. News flash, champ: they're had to come by. Guys who can average 10 sacks a season and force the run are even more rare. The ones that I know recently are Julius Peppers, Michael Strahan, and Patrick Kearney. Maybe Mario Williams turns into that type of player. The chance that he would is the reason why he was selected 1st overall.

This season, there were 18 players who racked up 10 or more sacks. Of those 18, 7 were LBs. Another one (Warren Sapp) was a defensive tackle. Only a handful of the remaining 10 were guys that you could pencil in for 10 sacks a season (Peppers, Taylor, Little, Burgess, and maybe Will Smith). That's why these kinds of players are so valuable.

Jamaal Anderson has 0 sacks per season so far. I don't really understand how you can use him as an example. And he hasn't forced the run a single time, either.

 

[CardinalChris]

Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.Wow. Yeah, you are right. He did have 12 and 14 sacks in 05 and 04. My mistake. I'm not sure my mistake required that comment, but if that is how you prefer to point it out in that way, so be it. So far any post in this thread that differs from your opinion or has an error is met with sarcastic responses from you. I'm cool with being wrong (it happens to all of us), and I hope you are willing to continue on the discussion because it is interesting.

Read the post again. Simeon Rice has had 10+ sack years two of the past three years. Last season he only had 2, but he only played in 8 games. He's averaged over 10 sacks per season for 11 years. We'd be lucky if Gaines Adams had that kind of production, and I'd welcome it. Agreed, but if the point of the post is that if Adams can average 12 sacks a year and be a liability against the run, wouldn't you prefer Anderson's 9-10 sacks and better run defense?

You act like 10+ sacks per year guys are a dime a dozen. News flash, champ: they're had to come by. Again, belitting people. I know they aren't easy to find. Neither are two-way DEs.Guys who can average 10 sacks a season and force the run are even more rare. The ones that I know recently are Julius Peppers, Michael Strahan, and Patrick Kearney. Maybe Mario Williams turns into that type of player. The chance that he would is the reason why he was selected 1st overall.

This season, there were 18 players who racked up 10 or more sacks. Of those 18, 7 were LBs. Another one (Warren Sapp) was a defensive tackle. Only a handful of the remaining 10 were guys that you could pencil in for 10 sacks a season (Peppers, Taylor, Little, Burgess, and maybe Will Smith). That's why these kinds of players are so valuable.

Jamaal Anderson has 0 sacks per season so far. I don't really understand how you can use him as an example. And he hasn't forced the run a single time, either.

Neither had Gaines Adams. That's why I compare the two. They are rookies and expected to be top 10 picks. I think it is a very fair comparison. Let me ask you. Assuming the scouting reports are accurate on these two guys. Would you prefer Adams' 12 sacks a season with some run defense issues, or Anderson with 10 sacks and a much better ability against the run. I think when people express concern about Adams it is with the idea that Anderson could provide most of the pass rush Adams will, but while providing solid run defense.

 

[kerouac9]

Neither had Gaines Adams. That's why I compare the two. They are rookies and expected to be top 10 picks. I think it is a very fair comparison. Let me ask you. Assuming the scouting reports are accurate on these two guys. Would you prefer Adams' 12 sacks a season with some run defense issues, or Anderson with 10 sacks and a much better ability against the run. I think when people express concern about Adams it is with the idea that Anderson could provide most of the pass rush Adams will, but while providing solid run defense.

But Jamaal Anderson is a much more risky pick for a number of reasons, starting with the fact that he didn't work out at the combine, and adding that he's an underclass entry.

Don't get me wrong, I really really like Jamaal Anderson. I've been pimping him here since he declared. Depending on how his workouts go at his pro day, I'll be continuing to pimp him. If you could guarantee me that Jamal Anderson would average 10 sacks per season for even the life of his rookie contract, I'd be all over him.

But that's not what I'm talking about. I was on this thread discussing whether or not Gaines Adams being "another Simeon Rice" is something to be concerned about. I really don't think it is. I think it's something to be happy about.

The thing I think about Jamaal Anderson right now is that, to me, he looks like a guy who will play on the strong side of the defense, average maybe 8 sacks per season, maybe have a couple of 10-12 sack seasons, but not be the game-changing factor that someone like Rice has been for his career.

I like both players. If I had to choose right now, I'd probably pick Anderson over Adams because of his stoutness at the point of attack.

But I don't think there's any comparison between Adams and Carriker as prospects. Carriker will average 6-8 sacks per season, probably, and contribute in a lot of phases of the game, but I don't think he's a guy that will change games the way Adams or Anderson will.

And the scouts seem to agree.

 

[CardinalChris]

The debate is definitely between Anderson and Adams. The rest are just not up to their level.

I am starting to get excited that Thomas may slide with Det getting Foster. I too think Anderson is sort of in limbo because of his success in only one year. If he comes out on his pro day and runs a 4.6 or 4.7, I think he could be our pick if Thomas is off the board.

I keep reading comparisons with Anderson and Seymour. Richard is another guy who may not get the sacks, but his presence is VERY important to the team and the pressure they generate.

I do agree with you. DE is our 2nd or 3rd biggest need. OLBs are much easier to find than great DEs,and ours are starting to slip.

I also think fans seem to have this dislike of Rice because of how it ended, so we point to his shortcomings as the antithesis of what we want. I would one day love AZ to draft a pure speed, situational pass rusher who only plays on passing plays. But if you draft Adams at 5, he better be able to play every down, not just 3rd down.

 

[Garthshort]

Passing Downs

Why do so many think that teams only pass on third down? Reference Adams and Anderson, I've yet to see an "expert" rank Anderson ahead. Maybe there are some but I haven't seen them. Let me know. Thanks.

 

[kerouac9]

Why do so many think that teams only pass on third down? Reference Adams and Anderson, I've yet to see an "expert" rank Anderson ahead. Maybe there are some but I haven't seen them. Let me know. Thanks.

Scouts, Inc. has Adams 7 and Anderson 8. Kiper has Anderson 4 and Adams 9. TheHuddleReport.com has Adams 5 and Anderson 8.

Anderson hasn't worked out for scouts yet. They're obviously 1 and 2 at the DE position in this draft, with everyone else being a distant 3rd.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Scouts, Inc. has Adams 7 and Anderson 8. Kiper has Anderson 4 and Adams 9. TheHuddleReport.com has Adams 5 and Anderson 8.

Anderson hasn't worked out for scouts yet. They're obviously 1 and 2 at the DE position in this draft, with everyone else being a distant 3rd.

TSN has Adams 5 and Anderson 8

 

[Redrage]

As a South Carolian Gamecoks fan, I've seen a lot of Adams. Clemson is our rival after all. That said, I am absolutely convinced that anyone who is down on Adams simply hasn't watched him play much.

He's got a knack for big plays, is better than advertised against the run, and can play both sides of the line.

This is what's funny about the draft. Every year we hear fans get down on a player because of a gut feeling, some over analysis of a fictious weakness, or hearsay. I still remember to this day what people said about Philip Rivers before the draft. Once again, I will say about adams what I said about Rivers: if you don't like his game, you haven't seen him play.

 

[cdex99]

Yep, and how many false starts does a great pass rusher cause?

Sure you'd like the guy to be able to play the run too, but great pass rushers have a huge impact on the game.

I haven't seen enough of either Adams or Anderson to have a favorite, Anderson's size is intriguing but Adams had the great 40 time and apparently was really impressive in the shuttle and cone drills.

I agree. I think Leonard Davis would too.

The guy I really like, although I don't think he's a DE, is Amobi Okoye out of Louisville. The guy's got youth, only 19, speed, and is extremely intellegent. I think he has the most upside out of all the DL's in this draft.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree. I think Leonard Davis would too.

The guy I really like, although I don't think he's a DE, is Amobi Okoye out of Louisville. The guy's got youth, only 19, speed, and is extremely intellegent. I think he has the most upside out of all the DL's in this draft.

Yeah, but the guy added 15 pounds of muscle in about a month between the Senior Bowl and the Combine. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...