Revisiting McD

[Errntknght]

For a while we had a continuous stream of 'dump McD' sentiment showing up, and I just noticed it has suddenly shrunk to a tiny trickle. I'm thankful that he was never presented with the opportunity to draft Fultz or Lonzo but, who knows, he might have drafted Jackson even so. I imagine that is what started cutting back the 'anti' sentiment. And now we've seen his first 2nd rounder in SL, looking like a steal instead of the reach many thought he was. (Now I'm excitedly looking forward to seeing our 54th pick, Peters, on the floor.) The final nail was probably Bender suddenly looking like an astute pick at #4 in the SL. If Peters can make the team, its going to be two trifecta in a row! The final bit may be the light finally turning on for Len while he playing for us. I'm still of the opinion that Len will leave if anyone offers him a contract, but I'd like to be wrong.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think they want Chander or Len, but not both. I am not sure if they have a big preference of one over the other.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think they want Chander or Len, but not both. I am not sure if they have a big preference of one over the other.

I'm leaning more towards Len than Chandler but price plays a role. If Len can be had around Williams' salary then I think it's a no brainer to retain him. Anymore than that though and it's tricky. Like someone else said in another thread, at this point Len should improve, even if only slightly, but Chandler is definitely on the decline.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm leaning more towards Len than Chandler but price plays a role. If Len can be had around Williams' salary then I think it's a no brainer to retain him. Anymore than that though and it's tricky. Like someone else said in another thread, at this point Len should improve, even if only slightly, but Chandler is definitely on the decline.

But this assumes their value is even remotely similar, when it isn't. Len would have to improve significantly to stop being a bad player. Chandler is on the decline but still productive. If they're looking to stop the tanking and begin the progression towards a winning mentality then Chandler over Len is a no brainer.

If Chandler were a free agent right now he'd have multiple teams and a lot of contenders trying to sign him, meanwhile Len hasn't gotten even a rumor of an offer.

I wouldn't mind seeing them get something for Chandler while value is still there but I wouldn't factor Len staying or going in that decision. As of now Len is a sub par defender who leaves you 4 on 5 on offense. I can live without that.

 

[Finito]

You take Chandler for his veteran presence in the locker room. You need those guys when you have a bunch of young guys.

 

[Bodha]

We just picked #4 overall after our worst season in franchise history. His GM'ing led to that worst all time season.

Hes still a hapless moron.

Im not going to congratulate him for drafting Jackson. Good Job! You did the obvious right thing! What ace scouting skills went into that decision? A monkey could do that.

 

[Raze]

For a while we had a continuous stream of 'dump McD' sentiment showing up, and I just noticed it has suddenly shrunk to a tiny trickle. I'm thankful that he was never presented with the opportunity to draft Fultz or Lonzo but, who knows, he might have drafted Jackson even so. I imagine that is what started cutting back the 'anti' sentiment. And now we've seen his first 2nd rounder in SL, looking like a steal instead of the reach many thought he was. (Now I'm excitedly looking forward to seeing our 54th pick, Peters, on the floor.) The final nail was probably Bender suddenly looking like an astute pick at #4 in the SL. If Peters can make the team, its going to be two trifecta in a row! The final bit may be the light finally turning on for Len while he playing for us. I'm still of the opinion that Len will leave if anyone offers him a contract, but I'd like to be wrong.

Well, McD has been a great drafter. His most notable (good or bad) picks have been:

2013:

Alex Len (#5). Say what you want, but there wasn't a whole lot of talented prospects available at #5 in 2013. I've never been more indifferent about a draft that early. McD missed on the Greek Freak (#15) for sure. But he was a very difficult draft prospect to project. And it would have been insane to take him at #5 at the time. He missed on McCollum (#10) who is a good scorer, not good defender. And Gobert (#27). Everyone feels the pain there. So if you're gonna fault McD in this draft, the only thing you could say is that he should've traded back to land one of these guys.

Len isn't a total bust. Especially when you compare him to the other prospects. I guess Noel is an upgrade... when he's healthy... which is never. Adams is a good role player, but not a star. I'm really not all that impressed with any of the next 9 picks after #5, besides McCollum (Although I'd rather have Booker).

Len was a meh choice in a bad draft. Redrafts have him around the early 20's. He's still 24 years old and has time to increase his stock.

2014:

TJ Warren (#14). There didn't turn out to be a whole lot more after Warren was taken. Obviously Jokic, but he was stashed in the 2nd round. I guess Gary Harris and Capela could be considered better. But Warren is a good hit at that draft spot.

Redrafts have him top 10.

Tyler Ennis (#18). I like McD's drafting, but I hated this pick. He wasn't a great prospect. He had no chance taking time away from the 10 PGs we already had. I just didn't get it. Although I wanted Rodney Hood who hasn't done a whole lot either. Still, there wasn't a whole lot taken after Ennis.

Bogdan Bogdonavic (#27) was used to help get Chriss. He just signed with Sac, so we'll see.

2015:

Devin Booker(#13). Not a lot needs to be said. He's arguably the 2nd best player in the 2015 draft. He definitely top 5. McD scores HUGE points here.

2016:

Bender, Chriss, & Ulis. It's still pretty early to say much about these guys. Dragan and Chriss need time, but they are still promising prospects. Ulis is a solid pick for #34.

2017:

Josh Jackson and Davon Reed: They already look good. Jackson is a stellar pick at #4. Almost everyone was puzzled that McD took Reed at #32, but he looks like a good 3&D bench player (with potential to start).

All in all McD has done a fantastic job in his 5 drafts. I haven't put in the time, but the best way to truly evaluate how well he's done is to perform a comparative analysis of him in respect to the other GMs. That way we're comparing apples to apples. I'd bet he'd do rather well. I'd say top 10 for sure. Maybe top 5.

However, as it comes to trades and signings... I have a whole different take on McD.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I keep Len.

 

[GatorAZ]

I like McDonough and I think his approach the last two years has been the right way to go. He'll probably be let go when his contract is up but he'll have left the franchise in a good place going forward. Booker looks like he'll be a future star SG, the team has young players/draft picks and the payroll isn't capped out like a lot of mediocre teams right now. The Suns need one more top-5 pick for a shot at having 2-3 future all star players.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns can sign Len to a reasonable contract and move Chandler, I think the choice is clear, the Suns should keep Len.

Len fits the current youth movement and his salary would hopefully be more reasonable. Chandler is not going to be around when the Suns reach their peak.

In regard to McDonough, his fate might well hinge on the Knight trade. If he can move Knight without giving up significant assets, this will be huge.

However, I'd like to keep McDonough regardless based upon how he has situated the Suns for the future.

 

[Phrazbit]

When he took over we had the most dismal roster in the NBA, no youth to build around, very little tradeable assets and were coming off a disaster of a season. Right now we've got a ton of potential on the roster, a lot of quality assets and that is despite having just about the worst draft lotto luck possible.

Worst thing that happened during his tenure was the 48 win season in his first year. IMO they wanted to rebuild and had a roster that played way over its head, they had an obligation to ride it out and it delayed the rebuild by another couple years.

He deserves at least one more season, all things considered I'm pretty pleased with the current course of the franchise.

 

[hcsilla]

When he took over we had the most dismal roster in the NBA, no youth to build around, very little tradeable assets and were coming off a disaster of a season. Right now we've got a ton of potential on the roster, a lot of quality assets and that is despite having just about the worst draft lotto luck possible.

Worst thing that happened during his tenure was the 48 win season in his first year. IMO they wanted to rebuild and had a roster that played way over its head, they had an obligation to ride it out and it delayed the rebuild by another couple years.

He deserves at least one more season, all things considered I'm pretty pleased with the current course of the franchise.

Yes, but I wish I could forget the Knight-trade.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes, but I wish I could forget the Knight-trade.

That was bad, very bad. But I'll counter balance it with the drafting of Booker, the Bledsoe trade, a draft record, especially when position is accounted for, that rivals any team over the last several years. It's also nice that he hasn't crippled us against the cap like previous GMs have. He isn't perfect, but I'll take what's happened good and bad and hope he is learning from it and improving.

IMO we're likely to end up with a worse GM should we fire him, because whoever takes over would probably assume they have a mandate to go all out to compete now (because why else fire McD?) and that typically leads to ruin.

 

[elindholm]

Well, McD has been a great drafter. His most notable (good or bad) picks have been...

All in all McD has done a fantastic job in his 5 drafts.

You lost me. Going by your analysis, which I mainly agree with, here's how I count it up.

Len: average pick, since there was minimal value in this draft class
Warren: good pick
Ennis: bad pick
Bogdonavic: unknown
Booker: great pick
Bender: unknown
Chriss: probably a good pick
Ulis: probably a good pick
Jackson: you say good, but here I disagree; he hasn't outperformed his draft slot, so he's par for the course (so far) at #4 -- at least 90% of the league's GMs would have taken Jackson here
Reed: (probably) good pick

So that's two definite good picks (Booker, Warren), three probable good picks (Chriss, Ulis, Reed), two average ones (Len, Jackson), two unknowns (Bogdonavic, Bender), and one bad pick (Ennis). That looks a bit above average overall, but certainly not "fantastic."

 

[Raze]

That was bad, very bad. But I'll counter balance it with the drafting of Booker, the Bledsoe trade, a draft record, especially when position is accounted for, that rivals any team over the last several years. It's also nice that he hasn't crippled us against the cap like previous GMs have. He isn't perfect, but I'll take what's happened good and bad and hope he is learning from it and improving.

IMO we're likely to end up with a worse GM should we fire him, because whoever takes over would probably assume they have a mandate to go all out to compete now (because why else fire McD?) and that typically leads to ruin.

McD has had 5 major screw ups (non drafting) in no particular order:

1. The Knight trade. It wasn't just that we gave up the Laker pick. It was that we had a problem with 3 PG's who needed the ball in their hands to be successful. So we trade 2 away only to get another PG who needs the ball in his hands to be successful. This trade was beyond dumb.

2. Resigning Knight. This was a pride thing. McD couldn't stand to have made a bad trade, only to see the only commodity in that trade walk away. So he OVERPAID for the guy. Sure, he was coming off a decent year, but he made absolutely no sense for this team. Bad trade expounded by bad signing.

3. Trading Isaiah Thomas. He got next to nothing in that trade. A late pick from Cleveland is all. We ended up using that pick to trade up for Chriss, but it was a small portion of it. The biggest question is why trade Thomas and acquire Knight? Why not just keep Thomas? If McD could pick any day as a do-over, it'd have to be 2-19-15.

4. Signing Chandler. I actually like Chandler. I think we could use a vet banger to gobble up boards. But signing Tyson to "get a seat at Aldridge's table" was incredibly stupid. It made us look pathetic when we didn't land him. AND we end up getting an old guy with a massive contract.

5. His mishandling of Hornacek. Forcing him to fire his assistants. Claiming Jeff had lost the team (with Markieff Morris on it). Giving him 4 PG's and asking him to make it work... which he did. Maybe Jeff isn't a great coach, but McD made his job a heck of a lot harder. Plus, you never screw with Suns' family members. Especially ones as loved as Jeff.

He's had 4 meh moments:

1. Trading Gortat. I didn't like giving up a solid double double guy for a possible mid 1st pick. However, I heard later Gortat wasn't a good fit for the youngn's, so maybe it was all for the best.
2. Eric Bledsoe's contract negotiation. Ridiculous drama. However, the contract turned out to be agreeable.
3. Signing Isaiah Thomas. This was a great signing if it wasn't for the aforementioned Bledsoe contract drama and already having Dragic on the roster. (Combo that with drafting Ennis and you have me truly confused). 4 PG's? This of course lead to February 19th. But it was a good contract for a talented player.
4. Goran Dragic's trade. I actually liked the trade. Dragic had put us in a bind. There wasn't much we could do at that point. Landing 2 picks when the Heat might be terrible wasn't a bad gamble. Problem was it was McD's doing and we should have never been in that situation.

Outside of those 9 decisions, he's done some good things. Here's the good stuff:

1. Trading for Bledsoe. We gave up next to nothing to get him.
2. Trading Scola. Didn't need him. Used the pick on Bogdan who was traded for Chriss.
3. Trading the cancers known as the Morris Bros. Markieff's pick was traded for Chriss.
4. Trading for Chriss. Good prospect and a good trade.

I'm a big fan of what McD has done in the draft. I'm holding back the vomit for what he's done outside of that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When he took over we had the most dismal roster in the NBA, no youth to build around, very little tradeable assets and were coming off a disaster of a season. Right now we've got a ton of potential on the roster, a lot of quality assets and that is despite having just about the worst draft lotto luck possible.

Worst thing that happened during his tenure was the 48 win season in his first year. IMO they wanted to rebuild and had a roster that played way over its head, they had an obligation to ride it out and it delayed the rebuild by another couple years.

He deserves at least one more season, all things considered I'm pretty pleased with the current course of the franchise.

I'm giving him one more season.

 

[Raze]

You lost me. Going by your analysis, which I mainly agree with, here's how I count it up.

Len: average pick, since there was minimal value in this draft class
Warren: good pick
Ennis: bad pick
Bogdonavic: unknown
Booker: great pick
Bender: unknown
Chriss: probably a good pick
Ulis: probably a good pick
Jackson: you say good, but here I disagree; he hasn't outperformed his draft slot, so he's par for the course (so far) at #4 -- at least 90% of the league's GMs would have taken Jackson here
Reed: (probably) good pick

So that's two definite good picks (Booker, Warren), three probable good picks (Chriss, Ulis, Reed), two average ones (Len, Jackson), two unknowns (Bogdonavic, Bender), and one bad pick (Ennis). That looks a bit above average overall, but certainly not "fantastic."

To clarify:
Booker's not a good pick. He's a phenomenal pick. You have to give McD at least +2 for that one.
I had Jackson as the top prospect in the draft, so I'd assess getting him at #4 as above average. He drafted the best prospect at the spot he had. He could have drafted a scrub there so he still gets credit for taking Jackson, although I'd agree not as much. Obviously that's argumentative, but this is a subjective post.
Also, no lottery busts. That's big. All his lottery picks have contributed.

I'm more interested in assessing McD according to what he could do with what he had. He didn't have Philly's picks to work with: 1, 1, 3, 3, 10, and 11. Or the Lakers: 2, 2, 2, and 7. He's made good on: 4, 4, 13 (traded for 8), 13, 14, and 5 and landed some good late picks.

The hardest thing to do is to compare GM's according to what they've done with their picks.

Fantastic might have been a strong word, so I'll relent it a bit. (What GS did from 09-12 was fantastic.) However, I'll stick to the statement that he's a top 10 drafter, possibly top 5.

 

[JCSunsfan]

When he took over we had the most dismal roster in the NBA, no youth to build around, very little tradeable assets and were coming off a disaster of a season. Right now we've got a ton of potential on the roster, a lot of quality assets and that is despite having just about the worst draft lotto luck possible.

Worst thing that happened during his tenure was the 48 win season in his first year. IMO they wanted to rebuild and had a roster that played way over its head, they had an obligation to ride it out and it delayed the rebuild by another couple years.

He deserves at least one more season, all things considered I'm pretty pleased with the current course of the franchise.

This. Exactly. Who do you replace him with? Griffin? What has he really done except ride LeBron's coat tails? Jerry Colangelo is too old and Bryan Colangelo just isn't that good.

We finally get a GM who is willing to bite the bullet and do a real rebuild and people want to can him.

 

[CardsFan88]

McD has had 5 major screw ups (non drafting) in no particular order:

1. The Knight trade. It wasn't just that we gave up the Laker pick. It was that we had a problem with 3 PG's who needed the ball in their hands to be successful. So we trade 2 away only to get another PG who needs the ball in his hands to be successful. This trade was beyond dumb.

2. Resigning Knight. This was a pride thing. McD couldn't stand to have made a bad trade, only to see the only commodity in that trade walk away. So he OVERPAID for the guy. Sure, he was coming off a decent year, but he made absolutely no sense for this team. Bad trade expounded by bad signing.

3. Trading Isaiah Thomas. He got next to nothing in that trade. A late pick from Cleveland is all. We ended up using that pick to trade up for Chriss, but it was a small portion of it. The biggest question is why trade Thomas and acquire Knight? Why not just keep Thomas? If McD could pick any day as a do-over, it'd have to be 2-19-15.

4. Signing Chandler. I actually like Chandler. I think we could use a vet banger to gobble up boards. But signing Tyson to "get a seat at Aldridge's table" was incredibly stupid. It made us look pathetic when we didn't land him. AND we end up getting an old guy with a massive contract.

5. His mishandling of Hornacek. Forcing him to fire his assistants. Claiming Jeff had lost the team (with Markieff Morris on it). Giving him 4 PG's and asking him to make it work... which he did. Maybe Jeff isn't a great coach, but McD made his job a heck of a lot harder. Plus, you never screw with Suns' family members. Especially ones as loved as Jeff.

He's had 4 meh moments:

1. Trading Gortat. I didn't like giving up a solid double double guy for a possible mid 1st pick. However, I heard later Gortat wasn't a good fit for the youngn's, so maybe it was all for the best.
2. Eric Bledsoe's contract negotiation. Ridiculous drama. However, the contract turned out to be agreeable.
3. Signing Isaiah Thomas. This was a great signing if it wasn't for the aforementioned Bledsoe contract drama and already having Dragic on the roster. (Combo that with drafting Ennis and you have me truly confused). 4 PG's? This of course lead to February 19th. But it was a good contract for a talented player.
4. Goran Dragic's trade. I actually liked the trade. Dragic had put us in a bind. There wasn't much we could do at that point. Landing 2 picks when the Heat might be terrible wasn't a bad gamble. Problem was it was McD's doing and we should have never been in that situation.

Outside of those 9 decisions, he's done some good things. Here's the good stuff:

1. Trading for Bledsoe. We gave up next to nothing to get him.
2. Trading Scola. Didn't need him. Used the pick on Bogdan who was traded for Chriss.
3. Trading the cancers known as the Morris Bros. Marquief's pick was traded for Chriss.
4. Trading for Chriss. Good prospect and a good trade.

I'm a big fan of what McD has done in the draft. I'm holding back the vomit for what he's done outside of that.

The Knight trade was bad, but the desire was to rebuild quickly, and at the time, he was a nice prospect. It obviously hasn't worked out well for us, even with his 20ppg season.

The re-sign was a bad move, but it's dead weight isn't that high for a still rebuilding team. We don't need to trade him for a loss. Eventually his last year becomes an asset. At this point, he's worth that to us at least.

Trading IT was a bad move, but in the context, it was apparently trying to appease the ludicrous demands of Dragic (as you've noted). He pushed us into a deal, and we made deals. We got some value from him and later Dragic, so imo this really isn't overall a bad move, it's just bad that we didn't say tough ***** to Dragic and kept IT.

Chandler signing wasn't bad. He's serviceable and is helping our youngsters become NBA players. We didn't lose anything by signing him. In the end he may have trade value before all is said and done. I don't mind him swinging for the fences, because if he didn't, we don't even get Chandler and we're stuck cap space or a worse signing, and he's still is an asset going forward as well as a good example until then.

McD inherited $arver's mess. Taking a franchise with the most young talent and most #1 draft picks stored until nothing was left.

McD's righted it in every way but winning. This is the ultimate goal, but he's put us in good position. If we let him walk, someone else will benefit in the future from him. I think he needs to be re-signed right now. You can always can the guy later. But he's done far more then enough to get the extension from $$$arver.

There's a time to fire someone and a time not to. No one is legitimately clamoring for him to lose his job. I don't believe in always firing someone just because. It's like the annual firing 20 percent just because. You lose good people. This is worse then that.

As for Ennis. He was a baller who carried his team in college. For that year he was a good prospect for when he was drafted, and we included him as part of the deal to get Brandon Knight. So he didn't fail on our watch.

I'm the biggest critic of $arver over the years, and am glad he's calmed down from his wishy washy ways. McD is the best thing that has happened to the Suns since Jerry Colangelo. If you can get better, great. But good luck.

 

[JCSunsfan]

McD has had 5 major screw ups (non drafting) in no particular order:

1. The Knight trade. It wasn't just that we gave up the Laker pick. It was that we had a problem with 3 PG's who needed the ball in their hands to be successful. So we trade 2 away only to get another PG who needs the ball in his hands to be successful. This trade was beyond dumb.

2. Resigning Knight. This was a pride thing. McD couldn't stand to have made a bad trade, only to see the only commodity in that trade walk away. So he OVERPAID for the guy. Sure, he was coming off a decent year, but he made absolutely no sense for this team. Bad trade expounded by bad signing.

3. Trading Isaiah Thomas. He got next to nothing in that trade. A late pick from Cleveland is all. We ended up using that pick to trade up for Chriss, but it was a small portion of it. The biggest question is why trade Thomas and acquire Knight? Why not just keep Thomas? If McD could pick any day as a do-over, it'd have to be 2-19-15.

4. Signing Chandler. I actually like Chandler. I think we could use a vet banger to gobble up boards. But signing Tyson to "get a seat at Aldridge's table" was incredibly stupid. It made us look pathetic when we didn't land him. AND we end up getting an old guy with a massive contract.

5. His mishandling of Hornacek. Forcing him to fire his assistants. Claiming Jeff had lost the team (with Markieff Morris on it). Giving him 4 PG's and asking him to make it work... which he did. Maybe Jeff isn't a great coach, but McD made his job a heck of a lot harder. Plus, you never screw with Suns' family members. Especially ones as loved as Jeff.

He's had 4 meh moments:

1. Trading Gortat. I didn't like giving up a solid double double guy for a possible mid 1st pick. However, I heard later Gortat wasn't a good fit for the youngn's, so maybe it was all for the best.
2. Eric Bledsoe's contract negotiation. Ridiculous drama. However, the contract turned out to be agreeable.
3. Signing Isaiah Thomas. This was a great signing if it wasn't for the aforementioned Bledsoe contract drama and already having Dragic on the roster. (Combo that with drafting Ennis and you have me truly confused). 4 PG's? This of course lead to February 19th. But it was a good contract for a talented player.
4. Goran Dragic's trade. I actually liked the trade. Dragic had put us in a bind. There wasn't much we could do at that point. Landing 2 picks when the Heat might be terrible wasn't a bad gamble. Problem was it was McD's doing and we should have never been in that situation.

Outside of those 9 decisions, he's done some good things. Here's the good stuff:

1. Trading for Bledsoe. We gave up next to nothing to get him.
2. Trading Scola. Didn't need him. Used the pick on Bogdan who was traded for Chriss.
3. Trading the cancers known as the Morris Bros. Marquief's pick was traded for Chriss.
4. Trading for Chriss. Good prospect and a good trade.

I'm a big fan of what McD has done in the draft. I'm holding back the vomit for what he's done outside of that.

Wow. We traded Gortat because he did not want to pay him, which turned out to be correct. He would not have been a fit here and his contract would have been a burden.

Knight trade and signing was one move, IMO. You don't make that trade without committing to resigning him. It was a bad move in retrospect especially giving up thenLajer pick.

If you don't understand what happened with then IT trade then you just don't know Suns history. He traded Knight in order to please Goran, who promptly decided he wanted to go anyway. We should have gotten more for IT though.

Tyson signing made us look pathetic? Since when? Only in your mind. Tyson has been good for this team and he wants to be here. Sure, I would rather keep Len now but Tyson is great to have around and his salary is not hurting us.

The Dragic trade was brilliant. It was brilliant. He turned a poo situation into two first round picks. Dragic had said he was going anyway. He got two first round picks for a three month rental. Brilliant. Still might be one of his best moves.

Signing IT Bledsoe insurance and was brilliant. It is still one of the best contracts in the league. The only thing bad about all that was not trading Goran or IT sooner.

Listen, I loved Horny and he did have a bad situation, but he is a problem as a coach. He is a poor communicator. I have NO interest in having him back, do you?

He had a bad moment you failed to mention. He signed Marcus Morris. While the contract was decent the weirdness of the twins willing to sign cheaply should have been a sign trouble was ahead.

 

[Hoop Head]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned regarding the Jackson pick is how he helped ensure Jackson was there are at #4 and how he got him to cancel his workout with Boston. He was praised on this board by almost everyone for how he managed to get Jackson but now he's not getting credit for it or the jury is out? Come on.

 

[elindholm]

I had Jackson as the top prospect in the draft, so I'd assess getting him at #4 as above average. He drafted the best prospect at the spot he had. He could have drafted a scrub there so he still gets credit for taking Jackson, although I'd agree not as much.

Right; no one would have drafted a scrub there, so it's kind of meaningless to compare McDonough to a nonexistent person. The only other realistic option to Jackson was Fox. If Jackson ends up significantly outperforming Fox, then that will make him a better pick in hindsight.

I don't give McDonough any credit for Jackson being on the board at #4. He had no control over that, and Jackson would have been there regardless of who the Suns' GM was.

I'm more interested in assessing McD according to what he could do with what he had. He didn't have Philly's picks to work with: 1, 1, 3, 3, 10, and 11. Or the Lakers: 2, 2, 2, and 7. He's made good on: 4, 4, 13 (traded for 8), 13, 14, and 5 and landed some good late picks.

I'd put it slightly differently. Did he draft players who overperformed their draft position? That's how GMs get ahead in the draft -- not to get good players at good draft slots, but to get better players at those slots than other GMs would have.

You can't establish yourself as a good drafter if you get #1 every time. You're expected to take the best player, and if you don't, you've failed. On the other hand, it's relatively easy to be a good drafter if you're always at the end of the first round, like the Spurs, because anyone who turns out to be good has beaten the odds.

I agree that Booker was a great pick. Several GMs who passed on him are kicking themselves. That's the name of the game.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Right; no one would have drafted a scrub there, so it's kind of meaningless to compare McDonough to a nonexistent person. The only other realistic option to Jackson was Fox. If Jackson ends up significantly outperforming Fox, then that will make him a better pick in hindsight.

I don't give McDonough any credit for Jackson being on the board at #4. He had no control over that, and Jackson would have been there regardless of who the Suns' GM was.



I'd put it slightly differently. Did he draft players who overperformed their draft position? That's how GMs get ahead in the draft -- not to get good players at good draft slots, but to get better players at those slots than other GMs would have.

You can't establish yourself as a good drafter if you get #1 every time. You're expected to take the best player, and if you don't, you've failed. On the other hand, it's relatively easy to be a good drafter if you're always at the end of the first round, like the Spurs, because anyone who turns out to be good has beaten the odds.

I agree that Booker was a great pick. Several GMs who passed on him are kicking themselves. That's the name of the game.

Not so sure he had no control over that. It seems very much like it was orchestrated between Jackson and the Suns to get Boston to pass so he could go to the Suns.

 

[Raze]

Right; no one would have drafted a scrub there, so it's kind of meaningless to compare McDonough to a nonexistent person. The only other realistic option to Jackson was Fox. If Jackson ends up significantly outperforming Fox, then that will make him a better pick in hindsight.

I don't give McDonough any credit for Jackson being on the board at #4. He had no control over that, and Jackson would have been there regardless of who the Suns' GM was.

McD could have drafted Isaac too. All three are great prospects. I had Jackson, Fox, Isaac 1/2/3 on my overall board.

You might be giving far too much credit to GM's though. Cleveland drafted a guy #1 overall who was suspect to go top 5. Dumb GMs do dumb things all the time. (ie. I think drafting Lauri ahead of Dennis or Zach was insane.)

Also, couldn't we say "I don't give McDonough any credit for Booker being on the board at #13. He had no control over that, and Booker would have been there regardless of who the Suns' GM was."? Couldn't we say that about any prospect?

We don't give credit to GMs for guys being there. We give credit for having the foresight to know the prospect will flourish here and having the balls to take him no matter what people think. We also give credit for what he didn't do. He didn't panic and trade the farm to Boston to get his man (They had Jackson #1 overall per Gambo). He was patient and let him fall to him. I give him props for that. In an alternate universe he could have traded Bledsoe and #4 for #3. Yes, that's nuts. But I've seen far too many GMs that should be institutionalized to discount dumb trades.

Another thing to consider is the 3 teams ahead of us all passed on him. I think they messed up. They drafted three guys that don't have the first idea of how to play D. Sure they'll fill up the stat sheet, but that doesn't translate to winning championships. If Jackson turns out to be better than those 3, then McD drafted better than those GMs.

I'd put it slightly differently. Did he draft players who overperformed their draft position? That's how GMs get ahead in the draft -- not to get good players at good draft slots, but to get better players at those slots than other GMs would have.

You can't establish yourself as a good drafter if you get #1 every time. You're expected to take the best player, and if you don't, you've failed. On the other hand, it's relatively easy to be a good drafter if you're always at the end of the first round, like the Spurs, because anyone who turns out to be good has beaten the odds.

I agree that Booker was a great pick. Several GMs who passed on him are kicking themselves. That's the name of the game.

True. It's a heck of a lot safer for a GM to draft in the late 20's every year. They're winning and there's no pressure to draft a stud. Win/Win scenario.

 

[hcsilla]

That was bad, very bad. But I'll counter balance it with the drafting of Booker, the Bledsoe trade, a draft record, especially when position is accounted for, that rivals any team over the last several years. It's also nice that he hasn't crippled us against the cap like previous GMs have. He isn't perfect, but I'll take what's happened good and bad and hope he is learning from it and improving.

IMO we're likely to end up with a worse GM should we fire him, because whoever takes over would probably assume they have a mandate to go all out to compete now (because why else fire McD?) and that typically leads to ruin.

I agree, but I just can't escape from the memory that even at the time of Knight-trade I was shocked how bad that trade was for the Suns.