2024-2025 Around the NBA Thread

[Hoop Head]

I don’t know if I am ready to accept 5 years of 10 win seasons, giving up the top pick to another team each time.

I also think moving KD for anything of value is going to be almost impossible.

I think that's why all firesale trades should basically start with re-acquiring our picks from Houston. The swaps are too far gone and we can sort of mitigate the disaster of those by pushing for wins every other year. Making a bottom feeder a potential play-in candidate isn't as difficult as turning a low level playoff team into a legit contender.

Find a way to get our picks and then move forward.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think that's why all firesale trades should basically start with re-acquiring our picks from Houston. The swaps are too far gone and we can sort of mitigate the disaster of those by pushing for wins every other year. Making a bottom feeder a potential play-in candidate isn't as difficult as turning a low level playoff team into a legit contender.

Find a way to get our picks and then move forward.

I don’t think there is a trade with Houston to be made.

Maybe in the summer, not right now.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd like to see if the Suns can make a trade that fixes the hole in the middle before resorting to fire sales.

The Suns front office overreacted when they traded for Durant.

They shouldn't suddenly overreact again and jump to the other side of the boat. However, they do need to make a change before the trade deadline.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd like to see if the Suns can make a trade that fixes the hole in the middle before resorting to fire sales.

I'd like to see if the Suns can make a trade that fixes the hole in the middle before resorting to fire sales.

with what assets are they going to be able to do this? We don't have a pick until 2031 we can deal. And i believe because we're over the 2nd apron, we can't bundle multiple players to make a deal for a big man.

and ultimately, no serviceable big man is cure this team's biggest problem... KD and Beal's health.

 

[Covert Rain]

with what assets are they going to be able to do this? We don't have a pick until 2031 we can deal. And i believe because we're over the 2nd apron, we can't bundle multiple players to make a deal for a big man.

and ultimately, no serviceable big man is cure this team's biggest problem... KD and Beal's health.

I have not looked at every roster and salary. I don't think we need a 18 point per night scorer either. Just someone who can keep people honest in the middle with an occasional basket. We have plenty of scoring on the team. There might not be anybody available. All I have been saying is that I would like for them to shore up PF position before a fire sale. Especially, when we have so much redundancy at other positions.

 

[Mainstreet]

with what assets are they going to be able to do this? We don't have a pick until 2031 we can deal. And i believe because we're over the 2nd apron, we can't bundle multiple players to make a deal for a big man.

and ultimately, no serviceable big man is cure this team's biggest problem... KD and Beal's health.

There is no cure for the health of Nurkic, Beal and Durant, but the Suns might be able to put together a trade for a player like Isaiah Stewart or Robert Williams as examples.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t know if I am ready to accept 5 years of 10 win seasons, giving up the top pick to another team each time.

I also think moving KD for anything of value is going to be almost impossible.

I wouldn't accept it either if I had a better way to go. Sure, we could keep going as is and maybe average 35 wins a season for the next decade but where's the fun in that? We took a huge risk, we failed. Throwing good money at a bad situation clearly isn't the answer so what else is there?

I'm okay not being good enough to win a championship as long as there's a possibility we're moving in the direction that will eventually put us in contention. But we're set up to gradually, perhaps rapidly, head the other direction over the next several years with no relief in sight unless we blow it up. And the longer we wait to blow it up, the older KD and Beal get and the closer we get to a career altering Booker injury.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Butler is just straight up trolling people now

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[Mainstreet]

I wouldn't accept it either if I had a better way to go. Sure, we could keep going as is and maybe average 35 wins a season for the next decade but where's the fun in that? We took a huge risk, we failed. Throwing good money at a bad situation clearly isn't the answer so what else is there?

I'm okay not being good enough to win a championship as long as there's a possibility we're moving in the direction that will eventually put us in contention. But we're set up to gradually, perhaps rapidly, head the other direction over the next several years with no relief in sight unless we blow it up. And the longer we wait to blow it up, the older KD and Beal get and the closer we get to a career altering Booker injury.

If the Suns owned their future draft picks and rights, it would be an easier call. Also, the Big 3 have albatross contracts attached to them.

I'd like to see if the Suns can find a fix for the team before blowing it up. It's a long shot but not impossible.

If the right trades came along, sure I would consider it. However, the Suns need to think their way out of the situation, as contrasted with the way they blundered into it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Suns owned their future draft picks and rights, it would be an easier call. Also, the Big 3 have albatross contracts attached to them.

I'd like to see if the Suns can find a fix for the team before blowing it up. It's a long shot but not impossible.

If the right trades came along, sure I would consider it. However, the Suns need to think their way out of the situation, as contrasted with the way they blundered into it.

I think we can find a fix to make us better but not one that can put us in championship contention. To me, going forward with adjustments to this core is just prolonging the agony and everyday our tradable assets lose value. The best thing we have going for us is Ishbia's apparent willingness to spend money. So clear the cap and use that space and his wallet to facilitate trades that bring in picks. That way we won't have to continue sliding into an abyss for the next 15 years. I don't have that long to live, many of us here don't.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think we can find a fix to make us better but not one that can put us in championship contention. To me, going forward with adjustments to this core is just prolonging the agony and everyday our tradable assets lose value. The best thing we have going for us is Ishbia's apparent willingness to spend money. So clear the cap and use that space and his wallet to facilitate trades that bring in picks. That way we won't have to continue sliding into an abyss for the next 15 years. I don't have that long to live, many of us here don't.

I want to see what happens before the trade deadline and the opportunities that present itself this summer before jumping out of the plane.

If the Suns can't fix the problem, that's another story. In regard to those who can't wait, I'm already in the checkout line.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I want to see what happens before the trade deadline and the opportunities that present itself this summer before jumping out of the plane.

If the Suns can't fix the problem, that's another story. In regard to those who can't wait, I'm already in the checkout line.

If we were in a normal situation, with all our future picks I'd be right there with you. But we're not, we're not even close to a normal situation. I think we can make this team competitive and win 40 to 50 games or so but to me, our best case scenario is that next year we'll be a little worse and the year after a little worse than that and so on until we bottom out as we approach the final years of our missing picks. Then, we'll have a normal complement of picks but a roster of mostly subpar players.

So we'll go through 5 or 6 years of going through the motions and then we'll be able to start to rebuild like an expansion team would. I just don't like wasting those 5 or 6 years. Sure, winning 35 to 45 games a season beats what we'd be if we traded away the veterans but that just isn't enough for me. I really believe we could start moving forward in 2, maybe 3 seasons if we fully invest ourselves in the trade facilitator role and it would give us a chance to mold decent young players along the way. For me, I need that feeling of hope again from this team, right now I have absolutely none.

 

[Mainstreet]

If we were in a normal situation, with all our future picks I'd be right there with you. But we're not, we're not even close to a normal situation. I think we can make this team competitive and win 40 to 50 games or so but to me, our best case scenario is that next year we'll be a little worse and the year after a little worse than that and so on until we bottom out as we approach the final years of our missing picks. Then, we'll have a normal complement of picks but a roster of mostly subpar players.

So we'll go through 5 or 6 years of going through the motions and then we'll be able to start to rebuild like an expansion team would. I just don't like wasting those 5 or 6 years. Sure, winning 35 to 45 games a season beats what we'd be if we traded away the veterans but that just isn't enough for me. I really believe we could start moving forward in 2, maybe 3 seasons if we fully invest ourselves in the trade facilitator role and it would give us a chance to mold decent young players along the way. For me, I need that feeling of hope again from this team, right now I have absolutely none.

If the Suns blow it up, it all comes down to much the Suns can get for Durant and Booker.

Beal does not have any trade value unless the Suns attach a first round pick and perhaps a young player like Dunn. His future looks to be that of an expiring contract.

As you are aware, the Suns will gain nothing by losing. They traded their first round draft picks and swaps away for the foreseeable future. The ones they keep are likely to be late picks.

Maybe the Suns can get a first round pick out for Allen if they are lucky. Other Suns players may garner some second round picks.

It's not a bright future unless some teams are willing to cough up some good young players and picks like in the Larry Nance trade. IMO, this would be the best case scenario.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Suns blow it up, it all comes down to much the Suns can get for Durant and Booker.

Beal does not have any trade value unless the Suns attach a first round pick and perhaps a young player like Dunn. His future looks to be that of an expiring contract.

As you are aware, the Suns will gain nothing by losing. They traded their first round draft picks and swaps away for the foreseeable future. The ones they keep are likely to be late picks.

Maybe the Suns can get a first round pick out for Allen if they are lucky. Other Suns players may garner some second round picks.

It's not a bright future unless some teams are willing to cough up some good young players and picks like in the Larry Nance trade. IMO, this would be the best case scenario.

Normally yes but in our current situation, I'd disagree. I'd want whatever we can get from them but I don't think we can get anywhere near enough to make a rebuild feasible given our lack of future picks. That's why I keep suggesting we play the role of trade facilitator. Clear cap space and then take back bad contracts (plus picks) to enable the contending teams to improve their playoff hopes. Don't worry too much about what we can get by trading our veterans, our focus should mostly be to gain cap room. I think in two years or so we could get back a full complement of picks even though they won't all be original Suns picks.

 

[Mainstreet]

Normally yes but in our current situation, I'd disagree. I'd want whatever we can get from them but I don't think we can get anywhere near enough to make a rebuild feasible given our lack of future picks. That's why I keep suggesting we play the role of trade facilitator. Clear cap space and then take back bad contracts (plus picks) to enable the contending teams to improve their playoff hopes. Don't worry too much about what we can get by trading our veterans, our focus should mostly be to gain cap room. I think in two years or so we could get back a full complement of picks even though they won't all be original Suns picks.

Few teams can absorb the salaries of the Suns Big 3, certainly not contenders.

However, look at what the Nets got for Mikal Bridges. Also, Kevin Durant should still have good trade value to a contender.

I don't disagree about absorbing salaries for picks, but they are unlikely to be good draft picks, but I think both can be done at the same time if the Suns can drop enough salary.

 

[Hoop Head]

Normally yes but in our current situation, I'd disagree. I'd want whatever we can get from them but I don't think we can get anywhere near enough to make a rebuild feasible given our lack of future picks. That's why I keep suggesting we play the role of trade facilitator. Clear cap space and then take back bad contracts (plus picks) to enable the contending teams to improve their playoff hopes. Don't worry too much about what we can get by trading our veterans, our focus should mostly be to gain cap room. I think in two years or so we could get back a full complement of picks even though they won't all be original Suns picks.

The problem with this route is you're then banking on hitting a home run in free agency to attract multiple stars willing to sign with and turn around a laughing stock. Cap space means nothing without a plan. Typically max cap space ends up going to overpaid 3rd bananas as well or damaged goods, see Tobias Harris or Paul George for examples. Sure, we could hit in the draft but the fact we'd be handing another team our picks will make each loss mean even less. A team literally playing for nothing. No culture, no pride, and most importantly nothing to sell potential free agents on. We aren't Florida or Texas where a player can go for similar weather and no state tax and we don't have old championship banners like 4/5 of those TX/FL teams. We've already fallen into culture hole again where we can't find players who care for more than a paycheck. Being in the lottery without the lotto picks for 5-6 years isn't going to solve the problem.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem with this route is you're then banking on hitting a home run in free agency to attract multiple stars willing to sign with and turn around a laughing stock. Cap space means nothing without a plan. Typically max cap space ends up going to overpaid 3rd bananas as well or damaged goods, see Tobias Harris or Paul George for examples. Sure, we could hit in the draft but the fact we'd be handing another team our picks will make each loss mean even less. A team literally playing for nothing. No culture, no pride, and most importantly nothing to sell potential free agents on. We aren't Florida or Texas where a player can go for similar weather and no state tax and we don't have old championship banners like 4/5 of those TX/FL teams. We've already fallen into culture hole again where we can't find players who care for more than a paycheck. Being in the lottery without the lotto picks for 5-6 years isn't going to solve the problem.

Not at all, at least not for several years. Listen, I think we're screwed, absolutely screwed and there is no good path to relevance. I'm not promoting a great idea, I'm suggesting it's the least horrible path for us. Forget about the picks we don't have and don't focus on the fact that other teams will get rich from our folly. Don't try to entice free agents, don't make trades to upgrade player slots, just make trades to acquire picks. If we have the cap space to do it and our owner is willing to take back bad contracts we can hopefully stockpile enough picks to start over in a few years. So, two or three years roughly we'll be horrible and then we'll have a clean slate and will essentially look like an expansion team. It will still take several years from that point to become a contender but I think our current path is even worse, potentially far worse.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not at all, at least not for several years. Listen, I think we're screwed, absolutely screwed and there is no good path to relevance. I'm not promoting a great idea, I'm suggesting it's the least horrible path for us. Forget about the picks we don't have and don't focus on the fact that other teams will get rich from our folly. Don't try to entice free agents, don't make trades to upgrade player slots, just make trades to acquire picks. If we have the cap space to do it and our owner is willing to take back bad contracts we can hopefully stockpile enough picks to start over in a few years. So, two or three years roughly we'll be horrible and then we'll have a clean slate and will essentially look like an expansion team. It will still take several years from that point to become a contender but I think our current path is even worse, potentially far worse.

Okay, with those bolded words spoken, we are officially ready to play the Jazz.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not at all, at least not for several years. Listen, I think we're screwed, absolutely screwed and there is no good path to relevance. I'm not promoting a great idea, I'm suggesting it's the least horrible path for us. Forget about the picks we don't have and don't focus on the fact that other teams will get rich from our folly. Don't try to entice free agents, don't make trades to upgrade player slots, just make trades to acquire picks. If we have the cap space to do it and our owner is willing to take back bad contracts we can hopefully stockpile enough picks to start over in a few years. So, two or three years roughly we'll be horrible and then we'll have a clean slate and will essentially look like an expansion team. It will still take several years from that point to become a contender but I think our current path is even worse, potentially far worse.

I understand the proposal but I can't see a future where Suns fans accept another lost decade, at best, or where Ishbia is content letting the team fester for a decade to collect assets. The outline you laid out might work in a Sacramento, Charlotte, or DC but it wouldn't be acceptable to Suns fans or Ishbia.


I was thinking a little more on how to get to out of financial hole and a thought occured, expansion. If Seattle and Vegas get teams we can butter them up to take Beal off our hands. It's not a trade. Expansion drafts work differently and teams are allowed to incentive expansion teams to select a player off their squad. We did it with the Bobcats selecting Jahadi White. Beal would be an extreme given the salary but it could happen and is probably more realistic than bottoming out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The next five years are already lost. The five after that are too if we don’t sell Booker at his highest value.

There’s literally no point in keeping him to completely waste the “prime” of his career, where he’ll keep leading this team where he’s always led this team without a HOFer as the best player next to him… as the premiere player on one of the worst teams in basketball.

The key is also not necessarily just getting picks for Booker… the Thunder wouldn’t be where they are without the centerpiece of that PG13 deal being a Diamond on the rough with SGA. Same was true when the Suns got their Diamond in the rough with KJ. Being able to identify which team is at the end of their run but thinks Booker can get them over the hump AND has a good young piece is what the Suns should be hunting for. That way you start building around that piece and the future picks hold value for that contender who will fall off a cliff once Booker is the centerpiece of that team. To be honest, if GS came knocking around Booker, they have enough young pieces and future draft picks when Curry’s gone in 3 or 4 years that they’d be the perfect team to try and move Booker to. There needs to be significant foresight into a Booker trade… including the ability to evaluate the right young talent and team who still thinks they’re a contender but who’s days are somewhat numbered.

As for the picks we’ll watch go bye bye during the five year stretch, It will hurt watching that happen, but it’s going to hurt anyway whether they come from a team who wins 15 games or scrounges up 25-35.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I understand the proposal but I can't see a future where Suns fans accept another lost decade, at best, or where Ishbia is content letting the team fester for a decade to collect assets. The outline you laid out might work in a Sacramento, Charlotte, or DC but it wouldn't be acceptable to Suns fans or Ishbia.


I was thinking a little more on how to get to out of financial hole and a thought occured, expansion. If Seattle and Vegas get teams we can butter them up to take Beal off our hands. It's not a trade. Expansion drafts work differently and teams are allowed to incentive expansion teams to select a player off their squad. We did it with the Bobcats selecting Jahadi White. Beal would be an extreme given the salary but it could happen and is probably more realistic than bottoming out.

I'm not sure my point is actually coming across given your response. I don't think "not being horrible" is an option. To me, our choice is to play .500 ball or slightly better for awhile and then be horrible for several years or be horrible for a few years and then start to build a team from zero. Either way we're not winning a championship over the next decade or so but my way, I believe, gives us something to look forward to a lot sooner than if we keep trying to fill all the holes we have with so few usable assets to work with.

 

[Phrazbit]

The next five years are already lost. The five after that are too if we don’t sell Booker at his highest value.

There’s literally no point in keeping him to completely waste the “prime” of his career, where he’ll keep leading this team where he’s always led this team without a HOFer as the best player next to him… as the premiere player on one of the worst teams in basketball.

The key is also not necessarily just getting picks for Booker… the Thunder wouldn’t be where they are without the centerpiece of that PG13 deal being a Diamond on the rough with SGA. Same was true when the Suns got their Diamond in the rough with KJ. Being able to identify which team is at the end of their run but thinks Booker can get them over the hump AND has a good young piece is what the Suns should be hunting for. That way you start building around that piece and the future picks hold value for that contender who will fall off a cliff once Booker is the centerpiece of that team. To be honest, if GS came knocking around Booker, they have enough young pieces and future draft picks when Curry’s gone in 3 or 4 years that they’d be the perfect team to try and move Booker to. There needs to be significant foresight into a Booker trade… including the ability to evaluate the right young talent and team who still thinks they’re a contender but who’s days are somewhat numbered.

As for the picks we’ll watch go bye bye during the five year stretch, It will hurt watching that happen, but it’s going to hurt anyway whether they come from a team who wins 15 games or scrounges up 25-35.

The Thunder don't do that PG13 deal if they don't control their own picks for the following 5 years. There is no parallel for our current situation. It is uniquely terrible.

We are in bad shape and probably should blow it up... but we also don't get any realistic benefit from blowing it up for another 6 years.

The KD trade is well on it's way to being the most damaging trade in NBA history. A situation so dire that we're praying some team will overpay for a dude who has been loyal through thick and thin, lured other stars in and has never created drama, he should be the Suns version of Fitz... but the KD trade is so putrid that we need this guy's trade value to... somewhat, mitigate, the colossal damage previous trades have done to the franchise.

 

[clyde2tw]

FWIW， the KD trade per pe was fine up to minor details, such as not doing the rumored trade of Crowder for Grayson Allen long before the KD deal with Nets, which would get Saric in his place. It's the ensuing offseason they messed up things. I heard Irvine wanted to join KD and Dallas wanted Ayton. Had they done a sign and trade, then just let CP3 go, we'd have had a more complementary big-3 in KD-KI-Book, with role players GAllen, Okogie, Payne, Shamet, Camara, and MLE available. Shamet with 2 2nd-rounders would be good for Royce O'Neill, Bidatze, D. Jones were available at min, etc. we couldn't have done any worse.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm not sure my point is actually coming across given your response. I don't think "not being horrible" is an option. To me, our choice is to play .500 ball or slightly better for awhile and then be horrible for several years or be horrible for a few years and then start to build a team from zero. Either way we're not winning a championship over the next decade or so but my way, I believe, gives us something to look forward to a lot sooner than if we keep trying to fill all the holes we have with so few usable assets to work with.

No, I get your point but I'm not sure you are getting mine. I don't see a future where Suns fans accept being one of the worst teams in the league without our own picks. A 500 future fighting for play-ins is a more acceptable future than bottoming out entirely.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Pretty likely that Lebron is done in LA