Charmin Marvin Harrison Jr Thread

[Cheesebeef]

This thread has exhausted me, but I will add this. In order to get the most out of a WR who runs great routes, you need a timing and rhythm QB. Take a look at the first TD which was broken up by Gonzalez. MHJ won on the break, and created separation out of that break. The issue comes after that. Kyler throws a high point ball (not going to complain too much about that) which becomes a lower % play because of Gonzalez's ability to recover with speed, and contest the catch. Like Feeley said on the broadcast, MHJ needs to do a better job winning those catches, and I think he will.

But this is an example of MHJ gaining separation on his break due to his route running, but AZ could not take advantage of it.

An interesting observation I have made (and it shouldn't be shocking) is that MHJ's game is similar to his dad's (and early Fitzgerald). Run crisp routes, catch the ball, get down.

Theres one big difference here… he doesn’t run crisp routes, he’s had problems with drops all season but, he does get down very easily.

 

[Chopper0080]

Theres one big difference here… he doesn’t run crisp routes, he’s had problems with drops all season but, he does get down very easily.

I disagree on the route running and we probably disagree on the drops because I am going to guess you feel like those 50/50 balls that Gonzalez swatted away were drops and I don't. Also, per Pro Football Reference, MHJ hasn't had a drop since week 6 so "all season" is hyperbole.

Additional note...please don't look up Nabers drop stats (9) or Brian Thomas Jr's drop stats (6) or Ladd McKonkey's drop stats (4). In fact, stay away from drop stats in general. I would hate for you to have an informed take on where MHJs drops actually relate to his peers.

 

[Russ Smith]

Same offense or different offense is irrelevant IMO. Not moving your WRs around makes it more difficult for the them to be successful. Chase is moved around. Jefferson is moved around. Hell, Brian Thomas is moved around. Nabers is moved around. Every top WR should be moved around so that the opposing team has a tough time scheming how to take that WR out of the game. So, it is a schematic decision and the decision to leave a WR in a stagnant role is one that makes it more difficult for the WR.

If we want to pick nits, MHJ also got open on the illegal contact play where Gannon chose the 5 yards and a 1st down over the 9(?) yard gain. Ultimately, I am not inspired enough to sign up for NFL + and breakdown the all-22 tape, and I certainly don't expect you to do so which means I am comfortable agreeing to disagree.

Yes that was the best route he ran all day and it didn't count.

Also I think different offense DOES matter, the one D Hop played in was a passing offense, the one MHJ plays in is a running offense. One of the points of the 2 and 3 TE sets is we can force defenses to play their base defense and then throw out of it. That's where it becomes critical for the WR1 to be able to get open because he's sometimes the only WR on the field or 1 of 2.

teams schemed to take D Hop away, early in the year we saw some of that with safeties over the top regularly but I don't think we do nearly as much now. I think teams are more worried about Conner and Trey

 

[daves]

Not moving your WRs around makes it more difficult for the them to be successful. Chase is moved around. Jefferson is moved around. Hell, Brian Thomas is moved around. Nabers is moved around. Every top WR should be moved around so that the opposing team has a tough time scheming how to take that WR out of the game. So, it is a schematic decision and the decision to leave a WR in a stagnant role is one that makes it more difficult for the WR.

According to RotoWire:
Harrison has lined up at right outside 41% of the time, left outside 39.5%, right slot 18%, left slot 16%, right tight 1 play, left tight 1 play.

The other rookies:
Thomas has lined up at right outside 38% of the time, left outside 35%, right slot 27%, left slot 28%, right tight 1 play, left tight 1 play.
Nabers has lined up at right outside 34.5%, left outside 34.5%, right slot 23%, left slot 17%, right tight 8 plays, left tight 5 plays.

Veterans:
Chase has lined up at right outside 31% of the time, left outside 36%, right slot 24%, left slot 26%, right tight 4 plays, left tight 2 plays.
Jefferson has lined up at right outside 34% of the time, left outside 44%, right slot 22%, left slot 26%, right tight 0 plays, left tight 4 plays.

So while Harrison has been in the slot a little less than the others, it's not as though he's not being moved around.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

According to RotoWire:
Harrison has lined up at right outside 41% of the time, left outside 39.5%, right slot 18%, left slot 16%, right tight 1 play, left tight 1 play.

The other rookies:
Thomas has lined up at right outside 38% of the time, left outside 35%, right slot 27%, left slot 28%, right tight 1 play, left tight 1 play.
Nabers has lined up at right outside 34.5%, left outside 34.5%, right slot 23%, left slot 17%, right tight 8 plays, left tight 5 plays.

Veterans:
Chase has lined up at right outside 31% of the time, left outside 36%, right slot 24%, left slot 26%, right tight 4 plays, left tight 2 plays.
Jefferson has lined up at right outside 34% of the time, left outside 44%, right slot 22%, left slot 26%, right tight 0 plays, left tight 4 plays.

So while Harrison has been in the slot a little less than the others, it's not as though he's not being moved around.

Are you saying maybe chopper should stay away from where charmin lines up stats in general? We would hate for him to have an informed take on where MHJ lines up as it actually relates to his peers.

Had to be done.

 

[CardNots]

Are you saying maybe chopper should stay away from where charmin lines up stats in general? We would hate for him to have an informed take on where MHJ lines up as it actually relates to his peers.

Had to be done.

facts make or break narratives…

also leads to shorter threads

 

[Chopper0080]

This is kinda funny because a big point of contention from the board was that Kliff didn't move Hopkins around enough. Now there are complaints that Marv has to be moved around.

Ultimately, and I don't care how good you are coming out, if you are a rookie coming into the NFL, you are going to struggle vs Pro Bowl veterans. And if the team isn't willing to do things things to help that rookie out in those matchups, the rookie is not going to look his best.

@Ouchie-Z-Clown @CardNots

I am in support of the Cardinals moving him around. I am not sure what your points were.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown @CardNots

I am in support of the Cardinals moving him around. I am not sure what your points were.

My bad. I thought that was the gist of your argument.

 

[daves]

Robert Mays of The Athletic had "Yahoo writer and Reception Perception creator Matt Harmon" join him "to look back at the highs and lows of 2024 for pass catchers, from the good surprises, to the bad surprises, and evaluating some rookie seasons as well." They spent about four minutes on Marvin Harrison here:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Key takeaways:

1. One-sentence headline: "This has been frustrating."

2. Issues with how he's deployed in the scheme: They're using him in too many "sacrificial X-receiver" ways: vertical stuff, go routes, corner routes, and deep curls, which is not ideal. The usage could be more diverse. Harmon likes Petzing's offense, but it's very traditional in terms of WR deployment; if he could suggest one thing to the Cardinals it would be, "What if we did some Cee Dee Lamb type stuff".

3. QB issues: Kyler Murray is a "volatile" QB

4. Player issues: Harrison's play at the catch point - coming back to the ball, tracking the ball, and extending to make the catch in tight coverage and contested situations - was a minor negative in an overall fantastic prospect profile at OSU. But it's been a HUGE issue for him as a rookie. The biggest question going forward is, how much of that is something he can correct, and how much must be schemed around?

5. Mays adds that early in the season it seemed as though the team was testing his limits as a "big boy X receiver" lining up outside the numbers - to understand what they he was capable of in that role, rather than trying to immediately find his optimal usage in multiple roles. As the season has gone along, we've seen him on more crossing routes and deployed in slightly different ways. Harmon agrees and responds that despite Harrison being 6'4" and looking like a "big boy downfield ball winner", that wasn't what he did best at OSU. He runs in-breaking routes well - like his dad, he's a great route runner and very proficient technician - but not a "freak show, take the top off the defense X receiver".

6. Harmon adds that Michael Wilson has shown some ability to be take some reps at X receiver and he'd like to see them interchange roles some of the time.

7. Bottom line: equal shares of blame go to QB, deployment, and Harrison.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Robert Mays of The Athletic had "Yahoo writer and Reception Perception creator Matt Harmon" join him "to look back at the highs and lows of 2024 for pass catchers, from the good surprises, to the bad surprises, and evaluating some rookie seasons as well." They spent about four minutes on Marvin Harrison here:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Key takeaways:

1. One-sentence headline: "This has been frustrating."

2. Issues with how he's deployed in the scheme: They're using him in too many "sacrificial X-receiver" ways: vertical stuff, go routes, corner routes, and deep curls, which is not ideal. The usage could be more diverse. Harmon likes Petzing's offense, but it's very traditional in terms of WR deployment; if he could suggest one thing to the Cardinals it would be, "What if we did some Cee Dee Lamb type stuff".

3. QB issues: Kyler Murray is a "volatile" QB

4. Player issues: Harrison's play at the catch point - coming back to the ball, tracking the ball, and extending to make the catch in tight coverage and contested situations - was a minor negative in an overall fantastic prospect profile at OSU. But it's been a HUGE issue for him as a rookie. The biggest question going forward is, how much of that is something he can correct, and how much must be schemed around?

5. Mays adds that early in the season it seemed as though the team was testing his limits as a "big boy X receiver" lining up outside the numbers - to understand what they he was capable of in that role, rather than trying to immediately find his optimal usage in multiple roles. As the season has gone along, we've seen him on more crossing routes and deployed in slightly different ways. Harmon agrees and responds that despite Harrison being 6'4" and looking like a "big boy downfield ball winner", that wasn't what he did best at OSU. He runs in-breaking routes well - like his dad, he's a great route runner and very proficient technician - but not a "freak show, take the top off the defense X receiver".

6. Harmon adds that Michael Wilson has shown some ability to be take some reps at X receiver and he'd like to see them interchange roles some of the time.

7. Bottom line: equal shares of blame go to QB, deployment, and Harrison.

Thanks for posting this

Good read

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Robert Mays of The Athletic had "Yahoo writer and Reception Perception creator Matt Harmon" join him "to look back at the highs and lows of 2024 for pass catchers, from the good surprises, to the bad surprises, and evaluating some rookie seasons as well." They spent about four minutes on Marvin Harrison here:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Key takeaways:

1. One-sentence headline: "This has been frustrating."

2. Issues with how he's deployed in the scheme: They're using him in too many "sacrificial X-receiver" ways: vertical stuff, go routes, corner routes, and deep curls, which is not ideal. The usage could be more diverse. Harmon likes Petzing's offense, but it's very traditional in terms of WR deployment; if he could suggest one thing to the Cardinals it would be, "What if we did some Cee Dee Lamb type stuff".

3. QB issues: Kyler Murray is a "volatile" QB

4. Player issues: Harrison's play at the catch point - coming back to the ball, tracking the ball, and extending to make the catch in tight coverage and contested situations - was a minor negative in an overall fantastic prospect profile at OSU. But it's been a HUGE issue for him as a rookie. The biggest question going forward is, how much of that is something he can correct, and how much must be schemed around?

5. Mays adds that early in the season it seemed as though the team was testing his limits as a "big boy X receiver" lining up outside the numbers - to understand what they he was capable of in that role, rather than trying to immediately find his optimal usage in multiple roles. As the season has gone along, we've seen him on more crossing routes and deployed in slightly different ways. Harmon agrees and responds that despite Harrison being 6'4" and looking like a "big boy downfield ball winner", that wasn't what he did best at OSU. He runs in-breaking routes well - like his dad, he's a great route runner and very proficient technician - but not a "freak show, take the top off the defense X receiver".

6. Harmon adds that Michael Wilson has shown some ability to be take some reps at X receiver and he'd like to see them interchange roles some of the time.

7. Bottom line: equal shares of blame go to QB, deployment, and Harrison.

Seems right to me.

 

[unseenaz]

The game is gonna slow down for him, I'm not worried about Marv. When you zoom out and look at his production as a whole he's having a decent rookie season.

Nabers? He has 10 yards per reception. That's not good. 900 yards on 140 targets, he's not even a part of the conversation.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The game is gonna slow down for him, I'm not worried about Marv. When you zoom out and look at his production as a whole he's having a decent rookie season.

Nabers? He has 10 yards per reception. That's not good. 900 yards on 140 targets, he's not even a part of the conversation.

Lol… Nabers on pace for 1275 yards and 6 TDs while being the ONLY weapon on an awful Giants team with no QB, allowing Defenses to solely key in on him isn’t even in the convo with Harrison, who’s on pace for 849 yards, 9 TDs with at least a mid QB, great running game and a great #1 TE to take pressure off him.

Okay.

 

[unseenaz]

Lol… Nabers on pace for 1275 yards and 6 TDs while being the ONLY weapon on an awful Giants team with no QB, allowing Defenses to solely key in on him isn’t even in the convo with Harrison, who’s on pace for 849 yards, 9 TDs with at least a mid QB, great running game and a great #1 TE to take pressure off him.

Okay.

Ya exactly, he’s being force fed the ball and his per catch numbers aren’t good.

He's #15 in the league in yards #2 in targets. Nobody in the top 30 in yards have a lower yards per reception than him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ya exactly, he’s being force fed the ball and his per catch numbers aren’t good.

He's #15 in the league in yards #2 in targets. Nobody in the top 30 in yards have a lower yards per reception than him.

Yep. Averaging 10 yards per catch and has 140 targets in 12 games. It's almost like they build their offense largely around getting him the ball.

 

[unseenaz]

Yep. Averaging 10 yards per catch and has 140 targets in 12 games. It's almost like they build their offense largely around getting him the ball.

That's like an NBA player scoring 25 a game... but he takes 30 shots to do it.

 

[PDXChris]

That's like an NBA player scoring 25 a game... but he takes 30 shots to do it.

Only Slayton gets any real yards per reception. Robinson is worse than Nabers. The Giants are bad! Your analogy is great!

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[DVontel]

Tyrone Tracy has been a good RB for the Giants. 5th round rookie

 

[PDXChris]

Tyrone Tracy has been a good RB for the Giants. 5th round rookie

Sneaky good FF pickup for me! This is first year playing running back too. He was a WR in college.

 

[Russ Smith]

Mina Kimes had a similar take to the one DaveS posted. She said is it Kyler, Petzing or Marv, it's really all of the above.

But she again said, she thinks the Cards went into the season thinking they needed Marv to be the WR1, X receiver, and he's not that guy yet, he's just not and so you have to now realize, if he's not that guy, you just have a bunch of 2's and 3's. She said you watch Minnesota and realize how much Addison benefits from playing with Jefferson and Marv doesn't have anybody like that on the roster to help him. She questioned some of the passing concepts, she said Kyler has to play better.

But she said in the end, when the ball is there and there's a chance for it to be caught, way too often, Marv doesn't come down with it. In particular she said Gonzalez in the 1 on 1 he just could not make the plays, couldn't get open. She said the one that was broken up you can't blame Kyler that ball is there, in the NFL that's got to be a TD, and he didn't come down with it. Great play by Gonzalez, but a true Wr1 catches that ball, period.

 

[Harry]

I’m certainly not going to argue Harrison has had a great year. Certainly some of that’s on him. I do think the Cards have one of the most pedestrian passing offenses I’ve seen. Petzing wants a run dominated offense with multiple TEs on the field. That doesn’t make it easy for receivers. We’ve been critical of Dortch. Look at how his stats are down almost in half from 2022 (pre Petzing). Many were predicting a breakout year for Wilson, but it hasn’t happened. It seems Petzing, while targeting Harrison often, has no clue what made Harrison dominant in college. Perhaps the Cards should have drafted a better receiver fit. I would submit if you put Nabers in this offense, his numbers would be substantially lower. Incredibly Petzing has a background of working with passing games. I will also agree the offense line limits the time double receiver moves would take. The big question is will Harrison be significantly more productive next season? If Petzing is still here that will be challenging. I do expect a major personnel upgrade this offseason, but I’m not certan it will be directed at helping the passing game. I won’t get into Murray issues here, but I will address them later. Right now Harrison is in the wrong place at the wrong time. He’ll adjust and improve somewhat. However, I believe the odds are stacked against him.

 

[cardncubfan]

Lol… Nabers on pace for 1275 yards and 6 TDs while being the ONLY weapon on an awful Giants team with no QB, allowing Defenses to solely key in on him isn’t even in the convo with Harrison, who’s on pace for 849 yards, 9 TDs with at least a mid QB, great running game and a great #1 TE to take pressure off him.

Okay.

I think I would prefer 9 tds vs 6.

 

[Chopper0080]

I disagree on the route running and we probably disagree on the drops because I am going to guess you feel like those 50/50 balls that Gonzalez swatted away were drops and I don't. Also, per Pro Football Reference, MHJ hasn't had a drop since week 6 so "all season" is hyperbole.

Additional note...please don't look up Nabers drop stats (9) or Brian Thomas Jr's drop stats (6) or Ladd McKonkey's drop stats (4). In fact, stay away from drop stats in general. I would hate for you to have an informed take on where MHJs drops actually relate to his peers.

@Cheesebeef this was a dick comment by me. I didn't need it to make my point.

 

[BritCard]

We all hope that's the case. But it doesn't change the kid is nowhere near as good as he was expected to be, right now. It's not just Cards fans saying that, if you read stories about him literally everyone is saying it.

That's probably more down to unrealistic expectations

 

[Cheesebeef]

@Cheesebeef this was a dick comment by me. I didn't need it to make my point.

All good dude. I didn’t look at my initial post, but I’m sure it had some heat on it as well and apologize if it did.