15 thoughts - first round (and a little day two)

Gandhi

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1 – I don’t feel really happy or really disappointed about the pick. It is just the way it is. When Goodell announce the pick my thought was basically only “okay.”

2 – If he is going to produce like Fred Warner and Bobby Wagner, I am good with the pick.

3 – The duo of Daryl Washington and Karlos Dansby changed the defense bigtime, and Simmons and Collins certainly have the vibe of becoming the same kind of duo (not necessarily at the same level – just playing style).

4 – I had 14 players graded in the first round. None of them were left at #16, and Collins was not that far down my remaining list.

5 – Both Keim and Kingsbury basically buried Jordan Hicks in the press conference.

6 – The Seahawks, Rams and Niners run the ball a lot, and you primarily built your team to win your division.

7 – Was Collins drunk or stoned in his video conference?

8 – Every year it surprises me that several fans, who post opinions about draft related things, seemingly don’t understand the basics of the draft. You get a spot in the order, and from that spot you can select a player. You cannot, however, decide for yourself if you move up or down in the order as you need other teams to be willing to deal with you. Thus, it does not make sense to criticize a team for not moving up or down in the order without knowing if there are possibilities.

9 – I – certainly along with many others – would much have liked a cornerback, but there is something to be said about how much effective pass rush will help a secondary.

10 – Smooth by Keim to potentially throw area scout John Mancini under the bus during the press conference.

11 – If this season doesn’t go well, Keim and Kingsbury will be out, so it completely makes sense to me that they want a rookie that (probably) can produce early. That they would go with a player that probably has a lower ceiling, but also a higher floor, than some other prospects.

12 – Throughout my studying for the draft, my favorite players on tape were wide receiver Elijah Moore (Mississippi State), wide receiver Amari Rodgers (Clemson) and cornerback Ifeatu Melifonwu from Syracuse. I am not saying they are the best players left, or for that matter that they would be the best picks for the Cards. Just that I like them a lot.

13 – I hope they will trade back with their second round pick.

14 – In my Cards mock before the draft I selected wide receiver Terrace Marshall, LSU, in the second round. That can still happen.

15 – Many analysts apparently project that cornerback Kelvin Joseph out of Kentucky could be a diamond in the rough, and potentially could end up as the best cornerback from this class. I see that, but he has some character issues which I don’t like in the second round – and he will probably be gone by the fourth round.
 

Stout

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I very much disagree with #8 and #11.

#8: Keim wasn't trading down. He said it himself--he blatantly, flat out admitted they weren't going to trade down. They liked Collins too much to trade down. So it absolutely might have been an option, but we'll never know, because Keim *sigh*

#11: A rookie that can produce early. Have ya met Vance Joseph? Did ya see his handling of Simmons? Granted, we'll have an actual pre-season, but VJ alone bodes poorly for this pick. Factor in that it wasn't a particular area of need, and that there was first-round talent at MUUUUUUCH bigger areas of need, and any argument for this pick's rationale being an early contributor flies right out the window.

He's freaking 270 pounds. Unless he's a giant freak of an athlete, which would have landed him MUCH higher in the draft, ain't no way he's going to be fast enough to do what people around here think he's going to do. And he sure in the heck doesn't fit with the "win now" mentality that Keim has used to destroy this roster for the future. So, thanks for bungling even that, Keim.
 

az jam

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Good stuff Gandhi, I agree with your thoughts.

I'm not concerned about his weight. His pro day was April 2nd. He measured at 6047 and weighed 259. Cards trainers can get him at weight that they feel he will do best.
He also ran a 4.66 in the 40. Good speed for his size. He did 19 on the 225 bench reps.
 

juza76

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Good stuff Gandhi, I agree with your thoughts.

I'm not concerned about his weight. His pro day was April 2nd. He measured at 6047 and weighed 259. Cards trainers can get him at weight that they feel he will do best.
He also ran a 4.66 in the 40. Good speed for his size. He did 19 on the 225 bench reps.

35 inch vertical and 10.2 broad jump, means he is very explosive at 260lb
 

Stout

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Good stuff Gandhi, I agree with your thoughts.

I'm not concerned about his weight. His pro day was April 2nd. He measured at 6047 and weighed 259. Cards trainers can get him at weight that they feel he will do best.
He also ran a 4.66 in the 40. Good speed for his size. He did 19 on the 225 bench reps.

It says a lot to me that he gained 10 pounds in that short amount of time. He should be aiming to be in better shape as the time progresses towards the preseason, not get lazy and gain weight. We're not talking a D-lineman or an underweight receiver trying to add muscle here. He's already way big enough, and weight will only slow him. Ain't no way, with an extra 10lbs, he's going to have the same speed.
 

slanidrac16

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#8. There is another HUGE reason we couldn’t trade up or down. Keims inability to draft forced him to trade picks to compensate for failed picks.

We traded picks for Hopkins inspite of drafting 4 or 5 receivers in the prior 2 drafts. We traded picks to get a center in spite of drafting 2 centers over the last 3 years.
Because of his terrible drafts we had no collateral to trade in order to move up.
They were slamming the Patriots for having one of the worse draft histories in the league. Only two teams were worse...and we were one of them!
At least they have somewhat of an excuse drafting 28th or lower every year.
I’m tired of defending Keim. He’s had more than enough time to turn this thing around. He put this team in an “ all in” situation because he had no other choice.
Tell me other than center how much has this offense improved? Green basically replacing Fitz? Conner replacing Drake. Letting Arnold walk?
Keim is treading water right now. Watch the VEGAS over / under odds this year. I’m guessing 7.5 wins.
Right now, I’ll take the under.
 
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Gandhi

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#8: Keim wasn't trading down. He said it himself--he blatantly, flat out admitted they weren't going to trade down. They liked Collins too much to trade down. So it absolutely might have been an option, but we'll never know, because Keim *sigh*

Stout, that was what I wrote. :) That we don’t know the opportunities.

#11: A rookie that can produce early. Have ya met Vance Joseph? Did ya see his handling of Simmons? Granted, we'll have an actual pre-season, but VJ alone bodes poorly for this pick. Factor in that it wasn't a particular area of need, and that there was first-round talent at MUUUUUUCH bigger areas of need, and any argument for this pick's rationale being an early contributor flies right out the window.

Again, I did not write that. I wrote that I think that was why they selected Collins. I guess they also saw the improvement with the defense last year and wanted to continue adding to it, even though they might not select the most high-ceiling player on the board. That said, for all we know he was the highest rated player on their board.
 
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Gandhi

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#8. There is another HUGE reason we couldn’t trade up or down. Keims inability to draft forced him to trade picks to compensate for failed picks.

It is a great point, Slanidrac. I would say that they could easily entice some team to move back. Reportedly, draft picks from next year are much more worth than this year, and also, they could make some sort of package including players.
 

Stout

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Stout, that was what I wrote. :) That we don’t know the opportunities.



Again, I did not write that. I wrote that I think that was why they selected Collins. I guess they also saw the improvement with the defense last year and wanted to continue adding to it, even though they might not select the most high-ceiling player on the board. That said, for all we know he was the highest rated player on their board.

Opportunities were irrelevant; Keim flat-out admitted it didn't matter in the least. So there is certainly room to criticize the team for not even considering a trade back.

As to your second point, fair enough. It's what you think they're thinking. I get you now.
 

QuebecCard

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I very much disagree with #8 and #11.

#8: Keim wasn't trading down. He said it himself--he blatantly, flat out admitted they weren't going to trade down. They liked Collins too much to trade down. So it absolutely might have been an option, but we'll never know, because Keim *sigh*

#11: A rookie that can produce early. Have ya met Vance Joseph? Did ya see his handling of Simmons? Granted, we'll have an actual pre-season, but VJ alone bodes poorly for this pick. Factor in that it wasn't a particular area of need, and that there was first-round talent at MUUUUUUCH bigger areas of need, and any argument for this pick's rationale being an early contributor flies right out the window.

He's freaking 270 pounds. Unless he's a giant freak of an athlete, which would have landed him MUCH higher in the draft, ain't no way he's going to be fast enough to do what people around here think he's going to do. And he sure in the heck doesn't fit with the "win now" mentality that Keim has used to destroy this roster for the future. So, thanks for bungling even that, Keim.

There was no trade up or down after the move to #14. Ergo all GM's beyond that point were either content with the available talent or could not find trading partners. Every publication I've read had a first-round grade on Collins and yes, he's viewed as a "freak" of an athlete. A cursory review of our roster post-2021 shows that Collins fits a "need" and any suggestion that we've destroyed this roster for the future is hyperbole for hyperbole sake or at least I hope it is.

Vance Joseph handled Simmons the rookie without a true training camp and pre-season as best he could. We saw what we can expect in the latter quarter of last season. Easing a player into his responsibilities is hardly novel.
 

Stout

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There was no trade up or down after the move to #14. Ergo all GM's beyond that point were either content with the available talent or could not find trading partners. Every publication I've read had a first-round grade on Collins and yes, he's viewed as a "freak" of an athlete. A cursory review of our roster post-2021 shows that Collins fits a "need" and any suggestion that we've destroyed this roster for the future is hyperbole for hyperbole sake or at least I hope it is.

Vance Joseph handled Simmons the rookie without a true training camp and pre-season as best he could and we saw what we can expect in the latter quarter of last season. Easing a player into his responsibilities is hardly novel.

So YOU say, but you aren't the authority on it. And it didn't matter if there was a trade available; Keim admitted they were locked-in on Collins. So...yeah, a trade down wasn't happening even if the Stillers offered their #1 and #2.
 

QuebecCard

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So YOU say, but you aren't the authority on it. And it didn't matter if there was a trade available; Keim admitted they were locked-in on Collins. So...yeah, a trade down wasn't happening even if the Stillers offered their #1 and #2.

DUH!

Fact: There were no trades beyond #14. That's the "authority".

And let's be perfectly clear: had he traded down, you'd still find ways to criticize Keim. It's embedded in your DNA.
 

Stout

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DUH!

Fact: There were no trades beyond #14. That's the "authority".

And let's be perfectly clear: had he traded down, you'd still find ways to criticize Keim. It's embedded in your DNA.

Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant there weren't any available to us, which we can't possibly know. Keim might've called the Stillers and threatened to take Najee, and that could've given us leverage. We won't know because Keim was locked in.

And LOL @ the newcomer telling me all about myself and my opinions on Keim. I HEAPED praise on him when he traded up for Rosen. I LOVED the Simmons pick last year. But, hey, that's all prior to March 2021, so we can't consider any of that, right?
 

QuebecCard

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Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant there weren't any available to us, which we can't possibly know. Keim might've called the Stillers and threatened to take Najee, and that could've given us leverage. We won't know because Keim was locked in.

And LOL @ the newcomer telling me all about myself and my opinions on Keim. I HEAPED praise on him when he traded up for Rosen. I LOVED the Simmons pick last year. But, hey, that's all prior to March 2021, so we can't consider any of that, right?

I stand corrected.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Good stuff Gandhi, I agree with your thoughts.

I'm not concerned about his weight. His pro day was April 2nd. He measured at 6047 and weighed 259. Cards trainers can get him at weight that they feel he will do best.
He also ran a 4.66 in the 40. Good speed for his size. He did 19 on the 225 bench reps.
Apparently his later medical recheck was at 270.
 
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Gandhi

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Opportunities were irrelevant; Keim flat-out admitted it didn't matter in the least. So there is certainly room to criticize the team for not even considering a trade back.

Well, yes, you are certainly right if you completely believe what they say in the post press conference. I am a little more skeptical. I doubt that Keim would tell us right after the selection that yes, they wanted to trade back and either miss out on Collins or they thought no one would want him before their new spot, but that no one offered them anything.
 

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My thoughts:

- ARZ was in a bad trade up spot at #16. Once Jones came off board, there was no other QB to go up and get.

- ARZ might have had interest in AVT and NYJ may have sensed that thus they traded up 9 spots to #14 to take him.

- Collins could start as Hicks won't be a high priced back up since he took pay cut. Collins 3 down potential should make him starter but he'll have to earn in in TC.

- The way ARZ hits home runs with first two picks is if they end up with starters. Collins could be one, with #49 I would take Wyatt Davis as he barring injury will end up the starter at RG. Not sure if Samuel will be there at #49, he would be my other consideration.

- Tyson Cambell, Kelvin Joseph & Aaron Robinson would be best outside CB options, one should be available at #49 or Melifonwu.
 

Stout

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Well, yes, you are certainly right if you completely believe what they say in the post press conference. I am a little more skeptical. I doubt that Keim would tell us right after the selection that yes, they wanted to trade back and either miss out on Collins or they thought no one would want him before their new spot, but that no one offered them anything.

I said it in another thread, but I don't think Keim has that level of prevarication in him. If he says he didn't want to trade down, I believe him.
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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Remember, we are the Cardinals. The Cardinals.

We will continue to be around a .500 team. What seems different is that we will be more exciting and be able to compete more often and in more games. We have had so many seasons where we couldn't say that.

We shouldn't expect things to change much when we continue to have the same person doing the same thing. Most team would never give a GM or Head Coach so many years without some considerable improvement. There are just too many smart people out there who deserve a chance to do better, instead of staying stagnant.

If Keim has had success in some things, maybe we need to bring in someone or some people to take over those areas where Keim seems deficient. It is not written in stone that you can only have one GM. Think out of the box!

Now on a positive note .... consider the Raiders. Might as well take away their R1 picks and give them an extra #2, for each year they seem to draft players ranked as sure day 2 prospects in the mid-high first round. We could all do better than that.
 
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I said it in another thread, but I don't think Keim has that level of prevarication in him. If he says he didn't want to trade down, I believe him.
It's a press conference about the 1st round pick you just selected; it would be a hell of an insult to your newly acquired player for Keim to say something along the lines of, "we really wanted to trade down, because we didn't feel there was any prospect we valued enough to take at #16." ??

Come on, man! :lol:
 
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Gandhi

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- ARZ might have had interest in AVT and NYJ may have sensed that thus they traded up 9 spots to #14 to take him.

I think this was the case. Or at least that the Jets thought so, and they were never going to trade with the Patriots.
 

GatorAZ

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I very much disagree with #8 and #11.

#8: Keim wasn't trading down. He said it himself--he blatantly, flat out admitted they weren't going to trade down. They liked Collins too much to trade down. So it absolutely might have been an option, but we'll never know, because Keim *sigh*

#11: A rookie that can produce early. Have ya met Vance Joseph? Did ya see his handling of Simmons? Granted, we'll have an actual pre-season, but VJ alone bodes poorly for this pick. Factor in that it wasn't a particular area of need, and that there was first-round talent at MUUUUUUCH bigger areas of need, and any argument for this pick's rationale being an early contributor flies right out the window.

He's freaking 270 pounds. Unless he's a giant freak of an athlete, which would have landed him MUCH higher in the draft, ain't no way he's going to be fast enough to do what people around here think he's going to do. And he sure in the heck doesn't fit with the "win now" mentality that Keim has used to destroy this roster for the future. So, thanks for bungling even that, Keim.

He also said he only had two beers. What GM’s say especially around draft time is useless... BA said it himself. It’s lying season baby!
 

Stout

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It's a press conference about the 1st round pick you just selected; it would be a hell of an insult to your newly acquired player for Keim to say something along the lines of, "we really wanted to trade down, because we didn't feel there was any prospect we valued enough to take at #16." ??

Come on, man! :lol:

That's the only other option? lol How about simply not commenting on it? How about saying they considered a lot of things but felt he was the right choice? There are many ways to say it. Keim was being his straightforward self in his declaration.
 

Cheesebeef

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The Cardinals just once again went completely counter to the notion that “teams always draft for need”.

hell, they did it last year as well taking Simmons when they had just signed an ILB to start in FA and desperately needed help on the O-line and at WR.

They also did it in 2004 when they were QB starved and took Fitz.

I’m betting if I thought about this for more than even five seconds I could come up with a plethora of more examples of BPA over need.

in addition to that, the disaster of Levi Brown over AP is the greatest example of why “always drafting need over BPA” is the wrong way to go.
 
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WisconsinCard

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It's a press conference about the 1st round pick you just selected; it would be a hell of an insult to your newly acquired player for Keim to say something along the lines of, "we really wanted to trade down, because we didn't feel there was any prospect we valued enough to take at #16." ??

Come on, man! :lol:
Wish I could like this times
 

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