2 points on the end of game scenario

[Russ Smith]

Several of us on the game thread were mad when Arians challenged the fumble on the KOR when we'd already seen replay that made it clear Tate was down. That challenge cost us the last timeout which at the end of the game led to the scenario where we had to spike the ball.

We spiked on first down, kneeled down on 2nd down to place the ball and were going to spike on 3rd down to stop the clock. If we had the TO, we could have done that differently.

And a different point, given the 10 second runoff rule why don't teams simply kill the clock at say 11 seconds? That way if the refs don't make that call, it's 5 yards back and 10 seconds off and we have 1 second left. Makes for a much longer FG try of course now a 50 yarder instead of a 45(without the penalty on Cincy) but that way there is no chance that a lineman jumps and the runoff sends you to OT.

You're still likely going to have one KO and a series of laterals, so it's not like you're giving them time to run several plays.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Or we could just quit burning our timeouts via poor clock awareness, I had no problem with the challenge, it wasn't till I saw the 3rd or 4th angle that I knew it was down by contact.

 

[Catfish]

Wow, now we are finding fault with BA because he made a 'real time' decision to challenge a call that took me several looks at slo-mo to determine that the call of down by contact was the correct one. That seems a bit tough on him to me.

Where is the love he deserves for having his team prepared to drive that ball down the field then spike, kneel, and spike again to stop the clock in order to achieve a perfect end to a 58 second drive with no time outs. That is the last thing they do each practice, and when the time came to do it in a Nationally televised prime time game, they performed flawlessly for him. Both he, and the players were comfortable and confident of doing so, and were wildly successful in finishing the game with no time outs. Yeah, I guess it is time to get 'all over him' for believing that his team could do exactly what it did if he lost that time out on the chance that he might just win the challenge. (Sarcasm)

 

[Russ Smith]

Wow, now we are finding fault with BA because he made a 'real time' decision to challenge a call that took me several looks at slo-mo to determine that the call of down by contact was the correct one. That seems a bit tough on him to me.

Where is the love he deserves for having his team prepared to drive that ball down the field then spike, kneel, and spike again to stop the clock in order to achieve a perfect end to a 58 second drive with no time outs. That is the last thing they do each practice, and when the time came to do it in a Nationally televised prime time game, they performed flawlessly for him. Both he, and the players were comfortable and confident of doing so, and were wildly successful in finishing the game with no time outs. Yeah, I guess it is time to get 'all over him' for believing that his team could do exactly what it did if he lost that time out on the chance that he might just win the challenge. (Sarcasm)

Oh I love Arians but he has a really bad habit of challenging plays on what appear to just be anger or something. they had showed a replay that made it clear we weren't winning the challenge long before he threw the flag, if you look at the game thread you'll see a bunch of us saying it and then the flag came out.

Obviously he has people upstairs too but this has been the case as long as he's been there. Maybe he wanted to break any momentum Cincy had after the return by delaying it for the challenge, who knows, but I don't think even he believed that was a fumble.

It could have been a major issue at the end there with us having no timeouts.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Or we could just quit burning our timeouts via poor clock awareness, I had no problem with the challenge, it wasn't till I saw the 3rd or 4th angle that I knew it was down by contact.

+1

 

[Reddog]

No problem with that TO but there was one where we appeared to have 12 guys on the field on D and had to call one but those happen.

 

[kerouac9]

And a different point, given the 10 second runoff rule why don't teams simply kill the clock at say 11 seconds? That way if the refs don't make that call, it's 5 yards back and 10 seconds off and we have 1 second left. Makes for a much longer FG try of course now a 50 yarder instead of a 45(without the penalty on Cincy) but that way there is no chance that a lineman jumps and the runoff sends you to OT.

You're still likely going to have one KO and a series of laterals, so it's not like you're giving them time to run several plays.

The intention was to run the clock under 6 seconds, clock the ball, and kick the field goal. Limiting the opportunity for something dumb to happen (a la the Jags-Ravens game) is more important than the low-percentage chance that one of your linemen are going to jump when they don't have to do anything but stand still.

That said, I was horrified when Larsen jumped that the game was going to kick over to OT.

 

[Buckybird]

BA is a great HC but his challenges are beyond mind boggling. He needs eyes in the skies instead of going with his gut.

 

[Buckybird]

But yeah Russ I agree with the spiking of the clock before 10 secs.

 

[Russ Smith]

The intention was to run the clock under 6 seconds, clock the ball, and kick the field goal. Limiting the opportunity for something dumb to happen (a la the Jags-Ravens game) is more important than the low-percentage chance that one of your linemen are going to jump when they don't have to do anything but stand still.

That said, I was horrified when Larsen jumped that the game was going to kick over to OT.

That's my point have NFL teams actually done the math and decided it's more likely stopping at say 11 seconds might give time for the other team to come back?

If you do that the 10 second runoff doesn't stop you from getting to kick the ball.

It's pretty rare that it happens I agree, but how often do teams trailing by 3 with less than 10 seconds get the KO and tie or win the game? that seems pretty rare too.

I assume they reason they don't is they're afraid they're going to miss the kick and give the other team time to run a play get in FG range and win it themselves. THat is they're doing it out of concern of missing the kick more than we're going to make the kick and then they'll return the KO and get in FG range.

 

[kerouac9]

That's my point have NFL teams actually done the math and decided it's more likely stopping at say 11 seconds might give time for the other team to come back?

If you do that the 10 second runoff doesn't stop you from getting to kick the ball.

It's pretty rare that it happens I agree, but how often do teams trailing by 3 with less than 10 seconds get the KO and tie or win the game? that seems pretty rare too.

I assume they reason they don't is they're afraid they're going to miss the kick and give the other team time to run a play get in FG range and win it themselves. THat is they're doing it out of concern of missing the kick more than we're going to make the kick and then they'll return the KO and get in FG range.

I don't think so, if only because the 10 second runoff is such an unlikely play that they may not consider it at all. I've never seen a team spike/kneel/spike like they did, either.

 

[English on tour]

Coaching, you need to keep a TO. Players, need to be smart and not give up the flag for the run off to be an issue.

I can only think of one game in recent memory that we screwed up with the run off and that was Warner about 7 years ago (Rams maybe). I would rather trust my team than possibly give the ball back.

 

[BillsCarnage]

Oh I love Arians but he has a really bad habit of challenging plays on what appear to just be anger or something. they had showed a replay that made it clear we weren't winning the challenge long before he threw the flag, if you look at the game thread you'll see a bunch of us saying it and then the flag came out.

Obviously he has people upstairs too but this has been the case as long as he's been there. Maybe he wanted to break any momentum Cincy had after the return by delaying it for the challenge, who knows, but I don't think even he believed that was a fumble.

It could have been a major issue at the end there with us having no timeouts.

The initial replay or two shown on the jumbo made it look it might have been coming out and the fans screaming for the flag. In a close call like that you have to take the chance. Even the final shot from under the hood that showed the knee down was the very last one shown before the ref came out. Dunno if there were any other shots on TV, but it didn't look like there was a good enough angle to overturn it.

 

[English on tour]

Anyone else think the 'catch and foot on the pylon' was a little too close for comfort too. Pleased they didn't spend too long on it.

 

[nashman]

The pylon is out of bounds not even close to a catch he was well out before he gained possession.

 

[English on tour]

The pylon is out of bounds not even close to a catch he was well out before he gained possession.

It was 5 am and my eyes were bleeding

Just remember thinking 'hurry up and kick' at the time.

 

[Russ Smith]

The initial replay or two shown on the jumbo made it look it might have been coming out and the fans screaming for the flag. In a close call like that you have to take the chance. Even the final shot from under the hood that showed the knee down was the very last one shown before the ref came out. Dunno if there were any other shots on TV, but it didn't look like there was a good enough angle to overturn it.

They were saying no way that gets overturned well before the challenge flag came out. I suppose it's possible they were seeing replays Arians hadn't seen but what we saw on tv was pretty obvious, it wasn't going to lead to an overturn.

To be fair the players were telling him to challenge but the replay NBC was showing it was pretty clear we weren't going to win a challenge.

 

[Russ Smith]

Anyone else think the 'catch and foot on the pylon' was a little too close for comfort too. Pleased they didn't spend too long on it.

I didn't get why they focused on the pylon, the foot was out of bounds before it hit the pylon IMO. The pylon is a touchdown but only if you have both feet inbounds before you hit it, otherwise Collinsworth said it's out of bounds.

Another reason for Bethel to just catch the ball.

 

[BillsCarnage]

They were saying no way that gets overturned well before the challenge flag came out. I suppose it's possible they were seeing replays Arians hadn't seen but what we saw on tv was pretty obvious, it wasn't going to lead to an overturn.

To be fair the players were telling him to challenge but the replay NBC was showing it was pretty clear we weren't going to win a challenge.

Right, but Arians doesn't have the NBC replay in front of him, just what's on the jumbotron and they're not the same. Remember, it was fumbled and in that instance it was worth the risk. The endzone shot that showed the players knee down was the very last one shown to the crowd before the ref came out.

 

[football karma]

Anyone else think the 'catch and foot on the pylon' was a little too close for comfort too. Pleased they didn't spend too long on it.

yes -- in the sense that:

their best offensive player was one on one with the Cards back up CB -- and--

a game clinching interceptions when through his hands, off his shoulder pad ---- and alllllllmost into AJ Greens hands for a TD

yes --- far too close for comfort

clearly AJ was out of bounds, but still......

 

[jf-08]

And a different point, given the 10 second runoff rule why don't teams simply kill the clock at say 11 seconds? That way if the refs don't make that call, it's 5 yards back and 10 seconds off and we have 1 second left. Makes for a much longer FG try of course now a 50 yarder instead of a 45(without the penalty on Cincy) but that way there is no chance that a lineman jumps and the runoff sends you to OT.

With any time on the clock and a missed FG, the O has an opportunity to Hail Mary and/or get a PI call to set up a FG.

I understand why they wait until 1 or 2 seconds left.

 

[GatorAZ]

Can't believe he didn't challenge the AJ catch that was called incomplete earlier in the 3rd qtr. that was easily a catch and first down.

 

[Russ Smith]

Right, but Arians doesn't have the NBC replay in front of him, just what's on the jumbotron and they're not the same. Remember, it was fumbled and in that instance it was worth the risk. The endzone shot that showed the players knee down was the very last one shown to the crowd before the ref came out.

Sure but maybe I'm understanding it wrong but we have people in the booth who do have the the same replays NBC has, they may even have NBC's footage for all I know. I'm surprised they didn't tell him BA you can't win don't challenge it.

Just seems like almost every game he challenges something that's just clear as day not going to be overturned.

A friend of mine who's not a Cardinal fan says he thinks BA does it for psychological reasons. It delays the momentum of the opponent, and it shows the Cards players "I have your back."

 

[Russ Smith]

Can't believe he didn't challenge the AJ catch that was called incomplete earlier in the 3rd qtr. that was easily a catch and first down.

On the sideline? his body touched down out of bounds before the 2nd foot came down at least it looked that way on replay.

 

[Russ Smith]

With any time on the clock and a missed FG, the O has an opportunity to Hail Mary and/or get a PI call to set up a FG.

I understand why they wait until 1 or 2 seconds left.

Yeah see my later comment to K9 that's my guess too, they're afraid of the missed FG.