2007 Draft: The Cardinals Need a Tackle

[RugbyMuffin]

The cardinals need a tackle.

Just like they have needed a QOF, and a pass rushing DE in years past.

All I can hope for is Gaves has learned from the Terrell Suggs experience, AND from the Matt Leinart experience.

To be clear. I will explain.

4 years ago this organization could not find a replacement for Simeon Rice. We had the worst pass rush for 4 years straight and couldn't get the oppourtunity to accquire a pass rusher. Then in the draft Terrell Suggs was sitting at the number 6 pick I believe and Graves screwed up, traded down, and lost the oppourtunity to FINALLY give the team the pass rushing DE that we needed. Thank goodness B-Train came our way but that was a HUGE mistake by Graves.

On the other hand last year the Cardinals did the opposite and drafted Matt Leinart when he fell to us at 10. It seemed like forever since the Cardinals had a consistant, and solid QB. Plummer had his moments but he was not the answer. So after the Josh McCowns, Jeff Blakes, and Kurt Warners Graves took the oppourtunity to fill a glaring need.

Now in 2007 we find the Cardinals in a similar spot. It seems like it has been FOREVER since this team had a bonafide OT. Anthony Clement, LJ Shelton, Leonard Davis (who is a guard), Oliver Ross, and even Reggie Wells are all guys who either are average at their very best or guards thrown out at the tackle position. I say enough fooling around. Get a damn tackle on this roster. Screw draft rankings, best player available talk, and drafting the proper guy and the proper spot. We have the #5 pick and either Joe Thomas, or Levi Brown will be there at #5. One or the other should end up on the cardinals NO EXCUSES!

I think it is a no brainer that the Cardinals draft either Brown or Thomas. Anything else would be a horrendous mistake.

That is my take on the situation.

 

[PrescottLooie]

Muffin, I agree we need an OT but if Thomas is gone when we select at 5 I think we should go for the DE Anderson NOT Levi. 5 is WAY to high for Brown, we can get something just as good as Brown in the 2nd or maybe 3rd Round (e.g. Staley, Martens, etc).

 

[Skkorpion]

Rugby, dump the bold text, please.

 

[Shogun]

In such a deep, but unspectacular tackle class, never. If this was a 2002-caliber class, then I'd agree. However, after Thomas it's a bit of a drop off in terms of prospects. And lets not act like starting tackles can not be found in rounds 2-4.

 

[Sandan]

Then in the draft Terrell Suggs was sitting at the number 6 pick I believe and Graves screwed up, traded down, and lost the oppourtunity to FINALLY give the team the pass rushing DE that we needed. Thank goodness B-Train came our way but that was a HUGE mistake by Graves.

Did he really, I know you hate Rod Graves but I guess I have to again question this superposition.

Mostly because I am reasonably certain it is incorrect.

Who was running that draft ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Rugby, dump the bold text, please.

just trying to make it more readable....but duly noted. No more bold (actually I increased the font size) text

Sorry

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Did he really, I know you hate Rod Graves but I guess I have to again question this superposition.

Mostly because I am reasonably certain it is incorrect.

Who was running that draft ?

Whomever's decision it was....it was wrong.

As far as I know Graves is in charge or has a hand in who we bring in personel wise so he has responsibility in these kind of decisions in one way or another.

The point is not about Graves it is about getting a OT into AZ.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Muffin, I agree we need an OT but if Thomas is gone when we select at 5 I think we should go for the DE Anderson NOT Levi. 5 is WAY to high for Brown, we can get something just as good as Brown in the 2nd or maybe 3rd Round (e.g. Staley, Martens, etc).

A couple of days ago I would agree with you.

But this is the kind of thinking that has us were we are today with no OT.

Plus were do you think Levi Brown is going in this draft. I say he is a top 10 pick.

Furthermore I think 5 is to high for Anderson, Adams, or Landry. So I say if all of our options at #5 are a reach then take the OT. Solidify the line, and start winning some football games.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

In such a deep, but unspectacular tackle class, never. If this was a 2002-caliber class, then I'd agree. However, after Thomas it's a bit of a drop off in terms of prospects. And lets not act like starting tackles can not be found in rounds 2-4.

Exactly! We are starting to push our biggest and most urgent need farther and farther down our list of priorities.

I see that Joe Thomas, and Levi Brown are top prospects, and then there is a drop off.

As a Cardinal fan I am tired of rolling the dice on our offensive line. Brown and Thomas are our best bets in securing a OT position.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I know that no one wants to hear this, but I for one dont think that Graves made a mistake in not taking Suggs. Yeah the guy rushes the passer, but look at his surroundings. I assure you that he would have been a bust had we taken him. He provided no run support, and it took the best defensive scheme in football to get him after the qb. I have season tickets to the Ravens and most of my friends are Raven fans. Nobody here in B'more thinks that he has lived up to his billing at all. We didn't have big run-stuffing DTs or the best lbs in the game to distract other teams. The most important point.....we didn't use a 3-4. He was strictly a third down rusher for 2 years in Baltimore. Arizona needed more than that out of a first round pick. God knows BJ and Pace weren't the answer, but that doesn't mean that Suggs was.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Exactly! We are starting to push our biggest and most urgent need farther and farther down our list of priorities.

I see that Joe Thomas, and Levi Brown are top prospects, and then there is a drop off.

As a Cardinal fan I am tired of rolling the dice on our offensive line. Brown and Thomas are our best bets in securing a OT position.

Rolling the dice is a bet.

 

[Sandan]

Whomever's decision it was....it was wrong.

I'd probably agree with that

As far as I know Graves is in charge or has a hand in who we bring in personel wise so he has responsibility in these kind of decisions in one way or another..

Like I said, this is more than a guess on my part and if I remember correctly Mac was the HC then

 

[Evil Ash]

Exactly! We are starting to push our biggest and most urgent need farther and farther down our list of priorities.

I see that Joe Thomas, and Levi Brown are top prospects, and then there is a drop off.

As a Cardinal fan I am tired of rolling the dice on our offensive line. Brown and Thomas are our best bets in securing a OT position.

Well thats a matter of opinion. Because everybody knows draft "experts" are never wrong.

Levi Brown has massive struggles when dealing with speed rushers and is a good run blocker. Sound familiar? He's almost an exact copy of the guy people wanted to run out of town.

You don't ignore other needs because you are obsessed with one position. That is the type of strategy that has made the Cards suck for years. You take BPA with need factored in.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Well thats a matter of opinion. Because everybody knows draft "experts" are never wrong.

Levi Brown has massive struggles when dealing with speed rushers and is a good run blocker. Sound familiar? He's almost an exact copy of the guy people wanted to run out of town.

You don't ignore other needs because you are obsessed with one position. That is the type of strategy that has made the Cards suck for years. You take BPA with need factored in.

I am with this guy 100%.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Well thats a matter of opinion. Because everybody knows draft "experts" are never wrong.

Levi Brown has massive struggles when dealing with speed rushers and is a good run blocker. Sound familiar? He's almost an exact copy of the guy people wanted to run out of town.

You don't ignore other needs because you are obsessed with one position. That is the type of strategy that has made the Cards suck for years. You take BPA with need factored in.

But seriously where does that leave us ?

Another season where a Superbowl caliber offense is dragged down to a pop warner effectiveness because a lack of an offensive line in front of them.

It is great to pick the BPA. But I do not see how a DE, S, LB or player at any other position is going to produce as many wins, and improve the team as much as an OT will.

The Cardinals have to start winning games, and upgrading our offensive line in one way or another will produce the most wins next year. IMO.

I know that there are negatives surrounding Brown, but you can say the same for Joe Thomas.

 

[cardsfanmd]

But seriously where does that leave us ?

Another season where a Superbowl caliber offense is dragged down to a pop warner effectiveness because a lack of an offensive line in front of them.

It is great to pick the BPA. But I do not see how a DE, S, LB or player at any other position is going to produce as many wins, and improve the team as much as an OT will.

The Cardinals have to start winning games, and upgrading our offensive line in one way or another will produce the most wins next year. IMO.

I know that there are negatives surrounding Brown, but you can say the same for Joe Thomas.

Do you really think that in the long run an average OT will benefit us more than a great "DE, S, LB or player at any other position"?

For the record. I dont.

 

[Gandhi]

But seriously where does that leave us ?

Probably in a situation were our coaches believes in the offensive line.

Joe Thomas would be worth of a top pick. Levi Brown would not.

As another in this thread pointed out, you do not just reach for the best player at the postion whatever pick you have.

If we stay at five we need to draft Landry or Adams as they are the best players available that also fills out a need.

If we draft down to, let say, number nine we draft Willis as he is in the same position as Landry at five.

If we draft further down, then we can talk about Levi Brown.

 

[Evil Ash]

But seriously where does that leave us ?

Another season where a Superbowl caliber offense is dragged down to a pop warner effectiveness because a lack of an offensive line in front of them.

4 out of the 5 Olinemen are back. We lost an OT that guys like you wanted to run out of town. Back then you said it owuld be easy to find a replacement now you don't. Which is it

It is great to pick the BPA. But I do not see how a DE, S, LB or player at any other position is going to produce as many wins, and improve the team as much as an OT will.

Easily by making plays and forcing turnovers, the team can get the ball on a short field. Pass rush is a HUGE part of an effective pass defense. If you don't believe me look at the Vikings - 0 sacks, 32nd ranked pass D.

The Cardinals have to start winning games, and upgrading our offensive line in one way or another will produce the most wins next year. IMO.

That would be one way but its not the only one. Obsessing with a position is what caused our team to take players like Tom Knight in the first round. How well did that work out?

I know that there are negatives surrounding Brown, but you can say the same for Joe Thomas.

Not really and if he were there he'd be BPA so I'd suggest taking him. With one guy you are taking him at a value position (Thomas), the other you are reaching (Brown).

I'm sure Grimm has other players that he has in mind to take and have play OT besides just those 2.

 

[Shogun]

I know that there are negatives surrounding Brown, but you can say the same for Joe Thomas.

Not really as Thomas struggles with the speedier guys and is a much better run blocker.

I see the levels like this:

Joe Thomas


Levi Brown

Ugoh
Staley
Frye
etc.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Do you really think that in the long run an average OT will benefit us more than a great "DE, S, LB or player at any other position"?

For the record. I dont.

Yes. I do.

The Cardinal have to change the "stigma" of being a perenial loser. The easiest way to increase the amount of win this team has per season is the bolster the offensive line and utilize all the talent and the money infused with that talent on offense.

After we get more wins we will have more oppourtunities to bring in better players.

Plus how Levi Brown is now considered an "average player" escapes me. You would rather gamble with a 2nd or 3rd round pick and have him and Oliver "Rusty Gate" Ross battle it out ?

It is not just the fact of bring in a OT. It is everything that will happen once a formidable line is made in AZ. Once the cardinals get a line that can block then the offensive will start to explode onto the scene. Thus the team will get much better as a whole.

The NFC west is starting to get better and better and I think we have to start finding an identity as an organization. Are the Cardinals going to use that high priced, high talent offense or not ? Cause there is a lot of money going to waste in AZ because our front office keeps on pushing the needs of the offensive line to the way side.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

4 out of the 5 Olinemen are back. We lost an OT that guys like you wanted to run out of town. Back then you said it owuld be easy to find a replacement now you don't. Which is it?

Yes, I still think Big is replacable. BUT you have to actually bring a OT into your organization to do so. They just don't fall out of the sky and beg to be let on the team.

The Cardinals did not bring in any OT's, Gandy as I have been told is a guard, for Free agency. And now there is talk about what to do if Joe Thomas is not there.

I mean to replace a player you actually have to make contact with, and sign another player. You can't just think about it.

Easily by making plays and forcing turnovers, the team can get the ball on a short field. Pass rush is a HUGE part of an effective pass defense. If you don't believe me look at the Vikings - 0 sacks, 32nd ranked pass D.

We forced 7 turnovers against the Bear's last year. But since our offensive line was so horrid we could not capitalize on it.

To be specific one of our tackles messed up, AGAIN, and allowed a sack, forced fumble, touchdown.

That would be one way but its not the only one. Obsessing with a position is what caused our team to take players like Tom Knight in the first round. How well did that work out?

It seemed to work out as well as Andre Wadsworth, Thomas Jones, Calvin Pace, Bryant Johnson, and Leonard Davis.

Not really and if he were there he'd be BPA so I'd suggest taking him. With one guy you are taking him at a value position (Thomas), the other you are reaching (Brown).

Then the question is who would not be considered a reach at #5. I think Landry is the only guy. And Gaines Adams is just as "boom or bust" scary as Levi Brown.


By the way.... I am not saying I am write or anyone is wrong. Just talking about our options, and my opinion of this team needs.

Good Stuff

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Probably in a situation were our coaches believes in the offensive line.

Joe Thomas would be worth of a top pick. Levi Brown would not.

As another in this thread pointed out, you do not just reach for the best player at the postion whatever pick you have.

If we stay at five we need to draft Landry or Adams as they are the best players available that also fills out a need.

If we draft down to, let say, number nine we draft Willis as he is in the same position as Landry at five.

If we draft further down, then we can talk about Levi Brown.

Levi Brown will be gone by pick 10.

Adams is as big of a risk at 5 as Levi Brown in my opinion.

Landry would be a great pick at five but he would not improve, and help the team as much as an OT.

I would definately take Willis at nine if it was an option.

 

[Evil Ash]

Yes, I still think Big is replacable. BUT you have to actually bring a OT into your organization to do so. They just don't fall out of the sky and beg to be let on the team.

The Cardinals did not bring in any OT's, Gandy as I have been told is a guard, for Free agency. And now there is talk about what to do if Joe Thomas is not there.

I mean to replace a player you actually have to make contact with, and sign another player. You can't just think about it.

There is more then 1 round to the draft and the draft "experts" are often more wrong then they are right. Let Grimm go after the players he wants to go after and that fit into HIS system.

We forced 7 turnovers against the Bear's last year. But since our offensive line was so horrid we could not capitalize on it.

To be specific one of our tackles messed up, AGAIN, and allowed a sack, forced fumble, touchdown.

The Oline played fine that game otherwise they wouldn't have been up 20-0. The game was given up after our moronic HC decided the best way to attack the Bears was to run the ball directly at them without blocking Urlacher (and not covering on special teams).

The strategy was working and the game was won until the HC went stupid and conservative.

That was also before the line changes (which should have been done before the season even started) that lead us to having a much better line.

It seemed to work out as well as Andre Wadsworth, Thomas Jones, Calvin Pace, Bryant Johnson, and Leonard Davis.

Are you trying to prove my point here? That reaching was done without the BPA strategy we've used for the past couple of years which got us players like Dansby, Fitz, and Leinart.

Then the question is who would not be considered a reach at #5. I think Landry is the only guy. And Gaines Adams is just as "boom or bust" scary as Levi Brown.

I'm willing to look at Branch, Anderson, Adams, Landry (although with Holt signing this becomes less likely) and even players like Brown. I want the best player chosen out of this group rather then just reaching for somebody because he fills a need.

By the way.... I am not saying I am write or anyone is wrong. Just talking about our options, and my opinion of this team needs.

Good Stuff

Thats fair. I just want you to see that drafting for need isn't the best strategy. Do I think we need an OT? Of course but I'm not passing on a possible DE stud to take an okay Oline prospect

 

[Heucrazy]

Tony Ugoh or Joe Staley = LT for Cards.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Tony Ugoh or Joe Staley = LT for Cards.

Two guys that would be lucky if they beat out Oliver Ross THIS SEASON (not saying in future they could not).

Thus neither of these guys would help our team like Thomas or Brown.

Once again the pushing out OT problem down to a 2nd round priority is a bad move.

If the Cardinals actually signed a FA tackle maybe I would think differently but they did not.

Plus why is it OK to draft for need in round 2 and not round 1