2008 HOF Candidates

[PDXChris]

• Andre Dawson - No too hurt too long. Numbers too small.

He played in 2600 games and had 438 HR's and over 1500 RBI's along with over 300 SB's. One of four players with 400HR's and 300 SB's along with 157 OF assists in 2300 OF games played. He was only hurt the last 3 season when he was in his 40's and that only added 26 HR's to his total. Won the MPV on a last place team too.


I think he deserves to be in.

 

[DWKB]

• Tim Raines - Nope average #s

Compare Lou Brock to Raines. Compare Dawson to Raines. Hell compare Tony Gwynn to Raines.

 

[Southpaw]

He played in 2600 games and had 438 HR's and over 1500 RBI's along with over 300 SB's. One of four players with 400HR's and 300 SB's along with 157 OF assists in 2300 OF games played. He was only hurt the last 3 season when he was in his 40's and that only added 26 HR's to his total. Won the MPV on a last place team too.


I think he deserves to be in.

Lifetime BA of .279.

 

[PDXChris]

Lifetime BA of .279.

.....and he is a slugger who's prime was in the 80's when that was great, and with his frame, you know he was clean too, so that says even more that he earned every number he got. Until the steriods, Mark Mcguire was considered a first ballot HOFer in most eyes with a .263 BA on only a 100 move HR's. Dawson did so much more that Mark Mcguire.


--------------Disclaimer, I am a Dawson homer since my first love as a child growing up in the 80's were the Cubs and just want him to get in and be next to Sandberg. So I know I am inflating his numbers in my mind.

 

[PDXChris]

Lifetime BA of .279.

Also, Ozzie Smith had a lifetime .263 BA. Should he be in?

 

[DWKB]

Lifetime BA of .279.

If all you've got to discredit players is BA then you've not got much to stand on. The point of offense is to not make outs and to drive in runs. BA doesn't describe either of those fully.

 

[abomb]

That is such a great Henderson quote. I think that his acceptance speech should have just a million antecdotes from players and people who have been around him during his career. I remember reading about him in the Mets lockeroom with Olerud and he was commenting how a guy on a team with him in Seattle wore a hard hat when he played first (the player he was referring to was indeed Jon Olerud, Rickey either didn't know him or forgot that he played with him for a season).

Wikipedia says that story is definitely NOT true. I was sad to hear it wasnt, because it added to the mystique of Rickey.

 

[PDXChris]

 

[Southpaw]

If all you've got to discredit players is BA then you've not got much to stand on. The point of offense is to not make outs and to drive in runs. BA doesn't describe either of those fully.

Of course it does. Sacrifice flies and RBI sacrifices don't count as at bats in the calcualtion. .279 is mediocre and not hall worthy. When the Hall accepts mediocrity, it loses credibility. He was a damned good ball player who didn't reach any of the benchmarks. Not everyone gets in.

 

[DWKB]

Of course it does. Sacrifice flies and RBI sacrifices don't count as at bats in the calcualtion.

Huh? Could you explain this again, I don't follow.

 

[Southpaw]

Huh? Could you explain this again, I don't follow.

Do you know how Batting average is calculated? A SF and Sac hit is not held against a players at bat. Just like a walk, it is a "0" in the calcualtion. Thus the BA is not negatively affected by the RBI out. So a .279 average is not low because of these contributions that you said were the reason for a lower average.

 

[DWKB]

Do you know how Batting average is calculated?

(laughing) if you knew me, this is a really funny question.

A SF and Sac hit is not held against a players at bat. Just like a walk, it is a "0" in the calcualtion. Thus the BA is not negatively affected by the RBI out. So a .279 average is not low because of these contributions that you said were the reason for a lower average.

No, a walk or SF doesn't negatively affect BA, but a walk isn't a negative event, it's a positive one (not making an out, getting a baserunner) and isn't accounted for in BA. Same problem with types of hits. A single is worth the exact same amount to BA as a HR, yet nobody would argue that singles are as valuable as HRs.
So OBP (On Base Percentage) and SLG (Slugging Percentage) and better measures because they do take into account things like walks, hit by pitches, and types of hits. Combine them and you get OPS (On Base Plus Slugging). Team OPS correlates much higher to Team Runs than Team BA does.

Multiply OPS with Plate Appearances and you get a simple calculation of a stat called Runs Created which approximates the amount of team runs a single player generated.

Time Raines is tied with Tony Gwynn, ahead of Killebrew, Carew, Clemente, Staub, Stargell, Banks, and Brock in Runs Created.

 

[Southpaw]

(laughing) if you knew me, this is a really funny question.




No, a walk or SF doesn't negatively affect BA, but a walk isn't a negative event, it's a positive one (not making an out, getting a baserunner) and isn't accounted for in BA. Same problem with types of hits. A single is worth the exact same amount to BA as a HR, yet nobody would argue that singles are as valuable as HRs.
So OBP (On Base Percentage) and SLG (Slugging Percentage) and better measures because they do take into account things like walks, hit by pitches, and types of hits. Combine them and you get OPS (On Base Plus Slugging). Team OPS correlates much higher to Team Runs than Team BA does.

Multiply OPS with Plate Appearances and you get a simple calculation of a stat called Runs Created which approximates the amount of team runs a single player generated.

Time Raines is tied with Tony Gwynn, ahead of Killebrew, Carew, Clemente, Staub, Stargell, Banks, and Brock in Runs Created.

No one will ever convince me that Raines is the equivalent or better than Gwynn, Killebrew, Carew, Clemente, Stargell, Banks. OPS is a tool for player agents, GMs to play with.

The auto "in" for the HOF has always been 500 dingers , 300 wins, .300 + BA. The day OPS and runs created becomes the criteria, I will laugh my ass off at it.

 

[DWKB]

No one will ever convince me that Raines is the equivalent or better than Gwynn, Killebrew, Carew, Clemente, Stargell, Banks. OPS is a tool for player agents, GMs to play with.

The auto "in" for the HOF has always been 500 dingers , 300 wins, .300 + BA. The day OPS and runs created becomes the criteria, I will laugh my ass off at it.

Well, that's a very shut off, close minded mentality I can promise you that every major league organization uses a (more advanced) form of OPS or Runs Created to measure player production. I can also promise you that .300+ BA has never been an "auto in" and that there are a ton of major league players with none of those things listed that are in the HOF.

 

[Southpaw]

Well, that's a very shut off, close minded mentality I can promise you that every major league organization uses a (more advanced) form of OPS or Runs Created to measure player production. I can also promise you that .300+ BA has never been an "auto in" and that there are a ton of major league players with none of those things listed that are in the HOF.

I saw every one of the players you mentioned , in comparison, and also Raines. Not even close, IMNSHO. Bye Bye.

 

[Louis]

I see your Brady Anderson and raise you Shawon Dunston!

/go cubs in '89

So where is the Shawon-O-Meter on a HOF acceptance speech from the man?

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Dawson, Rice, Gossage, and Raines please

And for a bonus Shawon Dunston!

 

[DWKB]

Tim Marchman calls out wallyburger?

Kind adults never admit it to small children, but there actually is such a thing as a dumb question. Asking whether Tim Raines was one of the 50 best players of all time is not a dumb question. Asking whether he was one of the five best left fielders of all time is not a dumb question. Asking whether the man is a Hall of Famer is, in fact, a dumb question, if it comes from anyone who knows baseball well enough to have a vote. It's like a cosmologist asking whether the stars move around a fixed earth.
[...]
He was better than Tony Gwynn, Paul Molitor, and Kirby Puckett. These three were elected their first time on the ballot this decade. "Rock" should join them.
[...]
The Hall of Fame is not supposed to merely codify reputations; it is supposed to reward merit and recognize greatness. By any meaningful standard, that isn't preposterously stupid. ("Did this player reach 3,000 hits or 500 home runs?" would count.) Raines was truly and immensely great — better than Gwynn, better than Ramirez, better than Reggie Jackson and Derek Jeter and Roberto Clemente, among others. In better circumstances, he would have been an icon.