2010 Free For All

[nowagimp]

This statement is monumentally stupid. Amare may be one of the worse star Power Forwards on defense (i.e. he's not as good as TD, KG, Boozer, etc), but one of the top 5 worst defending power forwards in the league? Thats ridiculous.

OK my bad he's one of the worst "starting PF's" in the league, probably top 5 worst. I was just assuming you knew he was being compared with starters at 17M in pay!

Whos better than amare on D?

okafor, R wallace, KG, Odom, Boozer, West, Aldridge, Gooden, Scola(or hayes), Duncan(or KT), Brand, Bosh, Jeff green, Haslem, Evans(phil), Bass(or Dirk), Mikki Moore, Jamison, Joe smith, craig smith, Josh smith, H Warrick, C Villaneuva, Chris Wilcox ... the list goes on and on So there are at least 24 teams with a better defensive PF IMO.

Players that amare is better than at '4':

Z Randolph, Rashard lewis(or turkoglu), ... Im sure ther are a few more, but not many.

 

[sunsallday]

^Your obvious bias against Amare is insane. One of the worst starting PFs? His defense might be horrible, but he is one of if not the best offensive and versatile PF in the league. I really don't see how he cannot improve his defense.

Please stop before you lose the little credibility you have left.

 

[LV-Suns]

Whos better than amare on D?

okafor, R wallace, KG, Odom, Boozer, West, Aldridge, Gooden, Scola(or hayes), Duncan(or KT), Brand, Bosh, Jeff green, Haslem, Evans(phil), Bass(or Dirk), Mikki Moore, Jamison, Joe smith, craig smith, Josh smith, H Warrick, C Villaneuva, Chris Wilcox ... the list goes on and on So there are at least 24 teams with a better defensive PF IMO.

 

[sunsallday]

Considering the fact that defense was not really emphasized to us, I really don't see how Stoudemire cannot become a good defender or at least improve. Believe or not, I have seen him play solid defense when he wants to. Now that defense is now one of our top priorities, lets just wait and see on how much Stoudemire improves his defense. He has the power and athleticism to do it.

 

[Irish]

Considering the fact that defense was not really emphasized to us, I really don't see how Stoudemire cannot become a good defender or at least improve. Believe or not, I have seen him play solid defense when he wants to. Now that defense is now one of our top priorities, lets just wait and see on how much Stoudemire improves his defense. He has the power and athleticism to do it.

I agree. Defense is mostly about "team defense" and that is where the Suns were the worst. D'Antoni's whole approach to defense was strictly straight man and screaming about more hustle. Mike would leave Amare out there on an island with every opponent fixated on getting him into foul trouble. His power forward was Marion who was more interested in getting out on the break than helping by cutting off guys driving the basket.

No other PF had to deal with the situation Amare faced. Nash is not physcially able to guard most PG's, Barbosa lacks technique to guard well, Marion was getting overwhemled in the post and required double team heml (and thus taking help for Amare), and Amare was being told to stay out of foul trouble at all costs. Plus, the team didn't practice defense for fear of guys geting worn out so D'Antoni would be forced to play more than eight guys some of the time.

I'm not sure that Amare will ever become an upper level defender, but I believe there is hope if he's not being set up to fail.

 

[Chaplin]

His one-on-one defense is pretty atrocious, but don't forget that he is possibly one of the top 2 or 3 weak side shot-blockers in the league. That counts for something.

 

[Irish]

His one-on-one defense is pretty atrocious, but don't forget that he is possibly one of the top 2 or 3 weak side shot-blockers in the league. That counts for something.

Most reviewers suggested his big problem, when not 40 pounds smaller, was on making rotations. He'd fixate on his own man and be out of position.

In any case, there is little doubt that Cartright will have his work cut out for him in teaching Amare what to do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Chris Sanders has had nothing nice to say about the Suns for a while(which is understandable after our first round exit). Look at his signature.

Amare Stoudemire is the cornerstone of our franchise. Make fun of his defense all you want, but he like HooverDam says is one of the premier PF. People also seem to forget he made Tim Duncan look like a little boy in 2005 when he averaged 37ppg against the Spurs. He can score big when you need it most, and his offensive game is on a another level. Many people blame Amare for his hard headed decisions against the Spurs this year, but the guy basically was our offense against the Spurs. Almost everybody else disappeared.

Sure the Suns did better than expected without Amare in 2006, but he is still a major piece of this team. Once Nash leaves, he will become the leader. If Amare was traded, who would become the leader of this team? Boris Diaw. Barbosa. Amare strives to be the best and he is going to shut his critics and doubters up like he always done.

He shut them up when he dominated against the Spurs in 05. He shut them up when he came back from three career threatening knee surgeries in 06 and 07, and he will shut many up again this year.

look, i love amare as much as any suns fan. and i do NOT want to lose him. and i AM afraid that we ARE in danger of losing him in 2010. he likes the attention and the bright lights. i can bet he'd rather be in a bigger market. whether that's available to him or not in 2010, who knows. but it is a danger. that said, you can't bring up 2005. he's not that amare anymore. he cannot come close to putting up to 37pts/game against tim duncan anymore. he's not that explosive anymore. is he still one of the best offensive bigs in the league? absolutely. but don't base any decisions regarding him on 2005. he's a worse offensive, and even defensive player, since that time, even if his offensive game is more well-rounded (which i'll concede, it is).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I wasn't. I believe we have taken a large step back in credibility as a franchise and thus we will not be as attractive as we once were.

I would say that by 2010 here is where we will fall:

New York
New Jersey (brooklyn)
Miami
LA
Boston

Hopefully the Suns fall in line right after here. Obviously the aforementioned Boston has shown how you can quickly turn around your reputation as a franchise, I can only hope that Kerr has the same skills (though he has far less assets to make such a turnaround possible).

In any event, I just don't see 2 top tier free agents coming to the Suns without Colangelo's influence.

agreed. colangelo was superb at wooing free agents. hell, he started the whole enchilada with the midnight signing of tom chambers years ago. the under market value contracts signed by the danny mannings, ac greens, wayman tisdales, that we had marching in year-by-year were his doing. the signings of chambers, danny ainge, etc, were due to colangelo. hell, the colangeli even had their hands in the steve nashs, richardsons, jimmy jacksons.

thus far we've seen kerr fail to woo attractive free agents other than grant hill. you can argue giri, but i don't think he had many other options.

we're just no longer the first destination spot that free agents think of anymore . . . and that sucks. and whether this front office deserves it's reputation or not, it still has the rep, and that likely hurts our hunt for free agents.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Completely agree with you about San Antonio! Regarding players not mentioning Phoenix - how do you know? Last year we snagged Shaq and Grant Hill... not too shabby...
How do you know which other cities FA's are targeting this season?? Let it all play out dude... and know that the Valley is indeed a sought-after destination for NBA FA's...

shaq wasn't a free agent. he doesn't count. we nabbed grant hill, which i'll agree was a good signing, but it seems to have been the only signing we won out on verses all the ones we seemingly lost (salmons, lue, barry, etc.).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Don't bold all your posts again sunsallday. It is annoying and rude.

wow chris, you're pretty worked up. i don't see it as annoying and rude. i think it's the only way to differentiate your response to someone else's post when you're quoting them. i do that myself. it's not like it's ALL CAPS which represents yelling. i don't think bolding and italicizing is supposed to be indicative of emotion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If anything, I look for some "odd" deals and teams try to unload contracts longer than two years even if one sided. Next summer, Shaq could be a hugely valuable asset since he could be traded for three or foul players with longer contracts on teams focused on free agency.

agree george. i see shaq's expiring contract being a lovely parting gift that we hopefully use to our advantage and not as an excuse to trade away more first round picks ala kurt thomas.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

ok.

Then why use the cards analogy to compare to the Suns situation? The cards dont get free agents because they have not been in contention for 50 years. So by you saying this, you think free agents do not want to come here because the front office is no good, You are comparing the cards front office to the suns front office.If You think the destination is great, then there has to be another reason why you think the Suns would not be a place where people would not want to play. could it be the........front office?????????? So, when you used the Cards analogy, you were saying the Suns are no better then the cards and that's why players, according to you, would not find Phoenix a good destination.

so..... chill out and stop telling people what they need to do, and spend a little more time thinking about what you are saying before you post.

you're wrong dude. that's not what chris was saying. you're making an inference that he wasn't making.

people were arguing that the suns were a great destination due to the city. he was simply pointing out that the city, in and of itself, has not been a draw in other instances and he used the cards (appropriately) as an example of this fact. you are making the logical leap to compare all aspects of the teams and allure. not chris.

 

[nowagimp]

^Your obvious bias against Amare is insane. One of the worst starting PFs? His defense might be horrible, but he is one of if not the best offensive and versatile PF in the league. I really don't see how he cannot improve his defense.

Please stop before you lose the little credibility you have left.

credibility from blind homers is only good to certifying other blind homers. I prefer to open my eyes and see things for what they are, and amare stoudemire is a poor man to man defender. He doesnt move his feet well anymore, and he doesnt look very strong for a 6' 10" player down low. Every opposing big has his career night off amare. Amares man goes for quite a few back doors as well. If the suns are ever to take advantage of amares offensive skills, amare must stop his defensive assignment from playing like an all star. Like chap says he is a very good weakside shot blocker, but that doesnt tell the story of his ability to stop a penetrator in the lane. Shaun Marion had too many offensive deficiencies for a max player and amare has some serious defensive deficiencies. You might be able to get away with defensive deficiencies at the PG or perhaps the '3', but down low is another matter. Championships are won with defense, and KG doesnt block as many shots as amare, he just stops guys from scoring in the lane and limits opponents to one shot by rebounding the ball. This is why teams that have won the championship in the last 10 years have had a defensive presence in the lane, but have been able to weather a few mediocre perimeter defenders(like house, allen, cassel).

All those who think championships are won with defense, know that defense starts in the middle.

 

[HooverDam]

the colangeli

I just want to say that how much I enjoy this pluralization of their name, it made me laugh.

 

[nowagimp]

Boozer? Much worse defender than Amare. A lot.

Boozer rebounds the ball, stops the putbacks, not so amare. If you dont box out, you are a weak defender as a big. Amare blocks more shots than boozer, or rasheed wallace or KG, but that doesnt make him a better defender. I'll take the rebounder and position defender over the shot blocker every day. Boozer is a pretty bad defender, but amare is worse. He__, shaun marion is a better defender at the '4' than amare, at 6'7" 225lbs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I just want to say that how much I enjoy this pluralization of their name, it made me laugh.

it just seems to work.

 

[LV-Suns]

Boozer rebounds the ball, stops the putbacks, not so amare. If you dont box out, you are a weak defender as a big. Amare blocks more shots than boozer, or rasheed wallace or KG, but that doesnt make him a better defender. I'll take the rebounder and position defender over the shot blocker every day. Boozer is a pretty bad defender, but amare is worse. He__, shaun marion is a better defender at the '4' than amare, at 6'7" 225lbs.

Shawn Marion is also a much better defender than Boozer at PF. Rasheed has no desire to rebound the ball, anyone ever questioned his defense before? Boozer is in the leagues of Zach Randolph defensively. By the way, Randolph puts great rebounding numbers, would you take him over Amare? Lets say, Amare still has the ability to be an average defender in the league, but Boozer is physical liability on the court, which cannot be changed.

 

[nowagimp]

Shawn Marion is also a much better defender than Boozer at PF. Rasheed has no desire to rebound the ball, anyone ever questioned his defense before? Boozer is in the leagues of Zach Randolph defensively. By the way, Randolph puts great rebounding numbers, would you take him over Amare? Lets say, Amare still has the ability to be an average defender in the league, but Boozer is physical liability on the court, which cannot be changed.

Randolph doesnt rebound well(8.1 a game for his career including only 5.6 defensive rebounds: amare averages 6.3 dboards, boozer 7.2). Randolph goes to the oglass(3 per game over the last 5 years), but doesnt defend well.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/zach_randolph/career_stats.html

Randolph is worse than amare defensively, and I stated so before. Rasheed wallace is a much better defender than amare, both teamwise and man to man. Big men that can control space on defense by boxing out, can be good defenders without getting big stats. Even if they dont get the board, they have played good defense by controlling space and offensive rebounders and enabling another player to get the board. Amare does not do this, he does not control space and he does not box out well. Amare has potential, but after 4 years with ivaroni it didnt seem to come out on defense. Even playing along side KT didnt seem to help amare much on defensive smarts. We'll see what cartwright can do with amare, but he was not a very good defender as a big.

 

[Irish]

Bill Cartright coached for one full seasons.

2002-03 Opponents shot 43.9% with Jalen Rose the team's leading scorer.

He's given credit for turning Chandler into a decent defensive center. Cartright's problem was a team that couldn't shoot.

 

[Covert Rain]

We should keep Amare, use the freed up money of Bell, Nash, and SHAQ's contract expiration and focus on getting a All-Star wing player (Wade or Lebron or a very good wing player)to play along side of him. That would cover all bases as we would have a inside presents with Amare and spectacular wing players

So our lineup after 2010 would be

PG:Goran Dragic
SG:All Star Free Agent or Tucker or Strawberry
SF:Boris Diaw or a All Star Free Agent
PF:Amare Stoudemire
C:Robin Lopez

That seems pretty deadly to me. Personally, I would love for Amare to stay as he is my favorite big man and I can't imagine him in another uniform other than the Suns.

Amare is a legit big man but at the PF position. I get a little nervous about putting our eggs in the Lopez Dragic basket at 2 key positions. Let's see those guys play first.

We definitely need to grab one of those key free agents to stay competitive and wrap our guys up.

Or why Stoudemire should be a long-term cornerstone of the franchise?

Despite his weaknesses Amare is still one of the best PF in the entire league. Look how long it took the Suns to get a legit big man in Amare. Now we just want to let him walk or trade him? That should do wonders for this franchise.