2014 NBA Draft

[sunsfan88]

I wonder what he personality and brain are like. That stare down near the end of the clip was a bit silly. He is playing with high schoolers.

And hows his shooting? All I see is someone who's phyisucally way more matured than his competition and is just running down and throwing down dunks on a bunch of high school kids.

Looks to me as if all he is athleticism, decent handles and the ability to dunk a ball.

Does he have good court vision, good perimeter defense, good rebounding, boxing out ability, shooting, passing, etc.?

Everyone says that he would be the #1 overall pick in any draft if he was drafted today...but he looks to me like a project. Sure he's incredibly athletic so that's something special to work with but its gonna take a lot of time before teaching him actual fundamentals of NBA basketball.

In other words, he doesn't look NBA ready to me. Sure he can throw down dunks and has the most athleticism I have seen in a player in over 8 years but is there anything else?

 

[AzStevenCal]

And hows his shooting? All I see is someone who's phyisucally way more matured than his competition and is just running down and throwing down dunks on a bunch of high school kids.

Looks to me as if all he is athleticism, decent handles and the ability to dunk a ball.

Does he have good court vision, good perimeter defense, good rebounding, boxing out ability, shooting, passing, etc.?

Everyone says that he would be the #1 overall pick in any draft if he was drafted today...but he looks to me like a project. Sure he's incredibly athletic so that's something special to work with but its gonna take a lot of time before teaching him actual fundamentals of NBA basketball.

In other words, he doesn't look NBA ready to me. Sure he can throw down dunks and has the most athleticism I have seen in a player in over 8 years but is there anything else?

It's almost as if you're asking whether he has a well rounded NBA game. The answer to that question is no, just like the answer would be for almost every single high school player that has ever gone on to play in the NBA. The exceptions are there but they are few. For a player at this level of development, he's well ahead of his most of his peers in most areas. It's still a crapshoot but the player he is right now would be the first player drafted in probably 12 of the past 15 drafts.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

It's almost as if you're asking whether he has a well rounded NBA game. The answer to that question is no, just like the answer would be for almost every single high school player that has ever gone on to play in the NBA. The exceptions are there but they are few. For a player at this level of development, he's well ahead of his most of his peers in most areas. It's still a crapshoot but the player he is right now would be the first player drafted in probably 12 of the past 15 drafts.

Steve

No what I'm saying is that I don't think he's NBA ready.

People compare him to LeBron coming out of HS and yet LeBron was much more NBA ready than Wiggins.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No what I'm saying is that I don't think he's NBA ready.

People compare him to LeBron coming out of HS and yet LeBron was much more NBA ready than Wiggins.

He isn't NBA ready like Lebron was, he's not even NBA ready like Kobe was. Few are. My guess, the people that compare him to Lebron have misunderstood the statement "he is the best prospect since Lebron". Being the best prospect since Lebron is not the same thing as being comparable to Lebron.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

He isn't NBA ready like Lebron was, he's not even NBA ready like Kobe was. Few are. My guess, the people that compare him to Lebron have misunderstood the statement "he is the best prospect since Lebron". Being the best prospect since Lebron is not the same thing as being comparable to Lebron.

Steve

I disagree I think that's exactly what people are saying. LeBron's game wasn't highly developed when he came out of high school either. He had to develop an NBA level jumper. What he had was incredible athleticism and skill with the ball.

I think the expectations for Wiggins are something similar to LeBron. I am not sure they should be but that's what they are.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree I think that's exactly what people are saying. LeBron's game wasn't highly developed when he came out of high school either. He had to develop an NBA level jumper. What he had was incredible athleticism and skill with the ball.

I think the expectations for Wiggins are something similar to LeBron. I am not sure they should be but that's what they are.

I think the expectations are similar in that they were both pegged to become franchise players (as was Durant and so many others). Over the past two years, I have seen this statement often: he is the best prospect since Lebron. I have yet to see "he is the next Lebron" although I'm sure a few people have probably floated that around. And, IMO, the ones that have didn't make that statement based on an analysis of Wiggin's game, they made it based on misinterpreting the other statement.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I disagree I think that's exactly what people are saying. LeBron's game wasn't highly developed when he came out of high school either. He had to develop an NBA level jumper. What he had was incredible athleticism and skill with the ball.

I think the expectations for Wiggins are something similar to LeBron. I am not sure they should be but that's what they are.

LeBron didn't develop a consistent NBA level jumper til after the 2011 Finals when he realized that the Mavs exposed him and that all teams will just play that kind of defense on him and dare him to shoot.

But when LeBron came out, he was already a good rebounder and a good passer. He did other things than just score but he even did that at an excellent level for a rookie, 20 pts a game on 40%+ shooting.

Plus James had very good ball handling ability too for a guy his size.

I don't see any of this in Wiggins to be honest. The athletic ability and dunking is there but what else does Wiggins have that's comparable to James in HS?

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am certainly no expert on Wiggins, but the hour or so of video I have seen of him show great versatility with the ball in his hands. Here is what I see,

incredible athleticism, including jumping ability, agility and speed.
Excellent movement with the ball in his hands including a variety of crossovers and spin moves.
Excellent hands including the ability to jump, catch, and change the ball's movement easily.

Unknowns: Defense, shooting, motor.

 

[ProdigalSun]

LeBron didn't develop a consistent NBA level jumper til after the 2011 Finals when he realized that the Mavs exposed him and that all teams will just play that kind of defense on him and dare him to shoot.

But when LeBron came out, he was already a good rebounder and a good passer. He did other things than just score but he even did that at an excellent level for a rookie, 20 pts a game on 40%+ shooting.

Plus James had very good ball handling ability too for a guy his size.

I don't see any of this in Wiggins to be honest. The athletic ability and dunking is there but what else does Wiggins have that's comparable to James in HS?

Almost all the video out there are highlight reels and mixtapes so its impossible to judge the things you're looking for. Also he's so much more physically dominant and better than anyone his age that we won't know alot of these answers until he "picks on someone his own size" per se. We'll have a better idea of who he is and who he might be after how he does this year.

What I see is a kid whose athleticism (speed,agility, jumping) make him a cornerstone franchise player that you can build around ala lebron james. truthfully i think people use the term Franchise player and the next lebron james synonymously these days.

 

[Russ Smith]

Has Sean Miller talked about whether he plans on having Gordon play the 2,3 or 4? Hopefully, he can develop some sort of low post game next year, otherwise, I hope the Suns stay away.

Miller is clearly aware of Gordon's situation he can't do an interview with him where he doesn't say Gordon is a natural 3. one was hilarious 4-5 sentences where he bent over backwards to NOT say he might play some 4. he even said there might be times he's out there with only one post, but didn't say he'll be the 4, he clearly knows Gordon spent 2 years saying I don't want to be a post.

Gordon has said he'll play the 4 if he has to he just wants to win, but he does not want to play the 4. He did an interview at the U19 tourney where he told everyone on the record he would play wherever UA asked him to, and then 2 different reporters said of course before that "official interview" he told us all he wanted to play PG.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sure, but they copy their heroes and their heroes have been doing it for quite awhile. The dumbest example of that kind of behavior I've ever seen was in the mid 90's. Jelani McCoy slam dunked the ball late in the game pulling UCLA back to within 78 points of the other team and he stood there screaming and glaring for a good 30 minutes. It's a true story although I might have gone all Bill Walton on the numbers.

Steve

McCoy was a moron, and yeah he'd pump his fist and scream when he dunked down 20. Or block a shot and pound his chest while the guy got the loose ball and scored.

It's epidemic and Wiggins is not alone but he seems to be a very level headed kid. Again it impressed me that he didn't just do the obvious and go to UK like everyone expected. he did his research and in the end he picked a program and coach that should be perfect for him.

 

[Russ Smith]

He's not a knockdown shooter but he can shoot, has excellent form just needs to learn what's a good shot and what's not which is pretty normal at his age.

He went head to head with Bazz in the Hoop Summit a couple of years ago and frankly held his own. Bazz took a ton of shots so he ended up with lots of points but I came away from that game convinced Wiggins was clearly the best prospect there and it wasn't even close.

Everyone is going nuts about UK's freshmen class I won't be at all surprised if Kansas winds up winning it all because of Wiggins.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not that I wasn't already done with Ben Howland but another reason now is lurking with KU freshman C Joel Embiid. Rick Pitino was quoted as saying Embiid was the most impressive recruit he saw in the 13 class, and that he wouldn't be surprised at all if Wiggins and Embiid go 1 and 2 in the 14 draft.

Embiid of course was "discovered" in Africa by Luc Mbah A Moute, brought him over to the US, set him up at his old HS and then contacted Howland to give him first look at his discovery. Ben looked, and was not impressed enough to convince the kid he was interested, let alone offer the kid. Then AAU started, the kid blew up, changed schools, and when Ben tried to get back in it was too late. Kansas eventually beat out Florida for him.

Very raw but guys that size just don't have that type of athleticism very often, the kid runs and jumps like he's 6'4" but he's a 7 footer.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont get whats happened with Howland. How could a guy have such a huge level of success and then totally drop off the map... all without a major scandal and with it taking place at one of the easiest programs to succeed at.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Embiid looks raw but amazing athleticism at that size

 

[Russ Smith]

I dont get whats happened with Howland. How could a guy have such a huge level of success and then totally drop off the map... all without a major scandal and with it taking place at one of the easiest programs to succeed at.

Way too long to try and explain and there is no one answer but IMO Ben forgot who he was. He got to 3 Final 4's with tough defensive minded teams. He felt like he was outgunned but look at who he lost 2, a repeat Florida team with 3 lottery picks, and a Memphis team where all the starters were in their 20's and had played together from prepschool on except for the best player, Rose, who was also ineligible. howland could have won an NC any of those 3 years but he also didn't coach well in any of those losses especially Memphis.

So he decided he needed to pursue a different type of kid, more offensive minded, he believed he could teach them to defend. Talent was down on the West Coast so Ben started trying to go after national kids and didn't get them, and he took local kids that he wasn't all that familiar with and got burned. Drew Gordon being the primary one.

for me in the end he started taking chances because his personality drove people nuts so he eroded the recruiting ties. That's why UCLA was recruiting Renardo Sidney, that's why he let Love's dad dictate who UCLA could take with Love. That's why he promised Holiday he'd play PG assuming Collison would leave etc. All that came back to haunt him.

Some of the kids he did get like Gordon and Nelson were huge problems that he should have seen coming or dealt with quicker but he felt he had to take those risks because he couldn't get the players anymore.

The last class to me was really nothing to do with Howland. UCLA got a very unusual situation where 4 kids had talked about playing together, 3 of them in particular(Kyle, Jordan and Tony) and it actually happened. They saved Ben's job for one more year but even last year it was obvious how much better the team played once the rumors hit Howland was going to be fired. It was like the team saw the light at the end of the tunnel and played better because they knew he wasn't coming back.

Too many things to say just one but for example when you watch Kawhi Leonard, Derrick Williams and Paul George, all 3 of those kids were in Howland's recruiting base the same time, and Howland didn't want any of them. He wanted the Wear twins, had a great relationship with their dad and they still went to UNC. So he took Nelson and Lane and Moser. People say the 08 class killed him and it did, but misevaluating the 09 class did him in too. He missed on 3 NBA first rounders 2 of whom were literally in his backyard.

 

[Phrazbit]

Good read Russ.

It was all rather confusing as an outsider. His recent teams certainly lacked character but so have other elite teams around the nation and found a measure of success in-spite of rosters covered in borderline personalities (IE every team Calipari has put on the court). It seemed as UCLA was still landing some highly rated recruits that a coach like him, who had a history of success at schools where he could not land premium players, would at the very least be able to coast on the talent of some of his players... rather than the total implosion of the last several years. I remember that SI article a few years back that made it seem as though he had completely lost control of the program. But all the stuff you bring up paints a more clear picture. As a fan of Arizona football, I have seen how one coach ignoring his own recruiting ties and aiming for kids he cant realistically land can have a devastating effect on the program.