2020-21 Around the NBA Thread

Lorenzo

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Yup, this...

Having him run the ball up and down the court from end to end AND then have to create his own shots is a recipe for wearing him down. That should be obvious to anyone who watches games just like the one tonight - he was out of gas by the second half, and it's far from the first time that has happened.

Add to that the fact that he is neither the sleekest nor best conditioned athlete (unlike Lebron in his prime), he has a big frame that will only get heftier as he matures, and it should be plain to anyone that his future would be better served playing off the ball rather than as a primary facilitator.

And frankly, he is much more useful and effective as a shooter and scorer than as the main playmaker. Get a real PG to handle the ball up the floor and let Doncic set up in the halfcourt and take better advantage of his shooting and rebounding. Nothing about that will diminish his playmaking skills. He is going to have to be primarily in that role very soon anyway.
This is 100% not going to happen and is wrong. Luka is the PG for the Dallas mavericks. Period. He is Steve Nash in a big frame. Imagine that for a second. Why would you tell Steve Nash to stand in the corner and watch someone else dribble the ball up? Cuban already made this mistake with Steve when he thought Steve was physically incapable of finishing games down the stretch, then he watched Steve win 2 MVPs in Phoenix once he was surrounded by multiple shot makers and rim shatterers. Imagine that, you surround a world class athlete with some skilled and athletically gifted contemporaries and things work well ...who would of thought.

Luka is not Lebron James playing at Cleveland in the terrible Eastern Conference in early 2000s. if that were the case Luka would be playing in the finals too early on in his career. he's that good. we were saying the same things about Lebron as late as 2011 when Dallas knocked them out. We said Lebron is wearing down in the fourth quarter because he handles the ball to much and takes too much on his shoulders (hence he can't score down the stretch). and yet he had wade and bosh with him then.

But Luka is not Lebron, Magic J, or Larry Bird, especially if you factor the roster that he is playing with compared to the all time greats that they all played with to win their titles. We are still making these ridiculous comparisons based on the way a guy looks while he plays the game. People in Dallas and around the NBA used to clown on Dirk and call him a weak choke artist because he was ball handling, running the floor, facing people up and shooting 3s, now look at the NBA. Dirk had to change his game to fit the NBA mold at that time and it worked out for him, thankfully. For Luka he has to do the same. He has to adjust his regiment somewhat to improve, but not to change who he is as a player and person, because Luka is a killer.

Of corse he is wearing down physically in the fourth quarter because he is tired and they are trapping the ball out of his hands. what do you expect? He needs shot makers around him and someone that he can throw the ball to inside, someone who can catch the ball in the air and finish above the rim.
 

Lorenzo

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The problem isn't Dončić having the ball, it's him having it so much of the time. They need more variety in their offense.
I don't think Luka should be on the court without the ball in his hands. maybe run plays through other people at times as it makes sense given the circumstances. But the mavs need a PG that they can trust to give Luka rest. someone who isn't going to lose control of the ship. I think Brunson can be that guy, but Carlisle has to empower Brunson and allow him to grow. Or if they decide Brunson is not the guy then they need to upgrade. For me I think Brunson has a bright future and fits with Luka if they surround them both with other shotmakers and taller athletes that can finish in the paint.
 

AzStevenCal

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I don't think Luka should be on the court without the ball in his hands. maybe run plays through other people at times as it makes sense given the circumstances. But the mavs need a PG that they can trust to give Luka rest. someone who isn't going to lose control of the ship. I think Brunson can be that guy, but Carlisle has to empower Brunson and allow him to grow. Or if they decide Brunson is not the guy then they need to upgrade. For me I think Brunson has a bright future and fits with Luka if they surround them both with other shotmakers and taller athletes that can finish in the paint.

He needs. A lot. He needs another playmaker on the court (one that's also effective off the ball), he needs at least one player that can force a double team, he needs a couple players that can finish consistently when he creates opportunities for them and he needs someone that can effectively harass the ball handler (force a turnover occasionally, maybe a steal now and then) and someone that's an actual threat to block a shot or two.
 

Lorenzo

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He needs. A lot. He needs another playmaker on the court (one that's also effective off the ball), he needs at least one player that can force a double team, he needs a couple players that can finish consistently when he creates opportunities for them and he needs someone that can effectively harass the ball handler (force a turnover occasionally, maybe a steal now and then) and someone that's an actual threat to block a shot or two.
absolutely...and the mavs need to support him or he will go find someone to help win a title. that's just the way the game is now. so now they need to look inward and make decisions based on every player and coach on their roster. there are some players that I like, but some that are getting overpaid for how they mesh with the others and what they bring to the table. KP for one. I like that he is willing to make "sacrifices" as Carlisle keeps saying, but he isn't getting paid for that. he's getting paid to score 20-30 points PPG and he's not even getting close to that. and before people say, well it was one bad playoff series, KP has issues beyond that. He can't play in about 50% of the regular season games. I'm not even going to get into the off court question marks, but I think there is something there too. so the mavs have to eat that mistake and they have to face the mistake of trading away Seth Curry because it's clear to me that Curry could have helped them win this series when 4th quarter and bench scoring became an issue.
 
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Lorenzo

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As far as the series with the clippers, I think it's clear that the better team won. The clippers as we know them, showed face and buried a lot of 3 point shots. In a game 7 the better team almost always wins. Dallas shocked LAC early with the 2-0 lead. they had a massive lead in game 3 early on with a hot handed Luka and Rick sat him down for customary rest. From then the Clippers got their swag back and KL was KL. To Rick Carlisle's credit, he made adjustments and did some unconventional things, but it was too little too late. Dallas missed another opportunity in game 6 when the entire clippers team other than KL basically wanted to be eliminated. but no one on the Dallas side could score, Luka included, down the stretch.
 

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As far as the series with the clippers, I think it's clear that the better team won. The clippers as we know them, showed face and buried a lot of 3 point shots. In a game 7 the better team almost always wins. Dallas shocked LAC early with the 2-0 lead. they had a massive lead in game 3 early on with a hot handed Luka and Rick sat him down for customary rest. From then the Clippers got their swag back and KL was KL. To Rick Carlisle's credit, he made adjustments and did some unconventional things, but it was too little too late. Dallas missed another opportunity in game 6 when the entire clippers team other than KL basically wanted to be eliminated. but no one on the Dallas side could score, Luka included, down the stretch.

It would have been nice if the Mavericks had removed the other LA team from the playoff race. They came so close

The Clippers shooting was uncanny in game 7 and once they get going they are hard to stop. It didn't help the Mavericks bench only produced 6 points. Yes, Seth Curry would have helped.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Philadelphia had the 5th best defense that year. Iverson was never known as even an average defensive player.

The Sixers’ path to the Finals was incredibly easy:

Pacers in 5 (SRS 18th)
Toronto in 7 (SRS 14th)
Bucks in 7 (SRS 8th)

In his career, Lillard has had the following playoff opponents:

2014: Houston (won in 6) 5th in SRS
Spurs (lost in 5) 1st in SRS

2015: Memphis (lost in 5) 8th in SRS

2016: Clippers (won in 6) 5th in SRS
Warriors (lost in 5) 1st in SRS

2017: Warriors (lost in 4) 1st in SRS

2018: Pelicans (lost in 4) 12th in SRS
(2nd round would have been against KD/Steph/Klay/Dray Warriors)

2019: Thunder (won in 5) 9th in SRS
Denver (won in 7) 7th in SRS
Warriors (lost in 4) 2nd in SRS

2020: Lakers (lost in 5) 3rd in SRS

2021: Denver (lost in 7) 6th in SRS

Iverson benefited greatly in 2001 from playing two gas cans and one decent team, in order to make the Finals. Lillard has played in the far more competitive West his all career and has multiple playoff series wins over better opponents than anyone Iverson faced in his Finals run.

Lillard crushes Iverson in shooting and impact metrics. It is laughable to cite his 2001 Playoff run as a significant when weighing their legacies given the disparity in opponent strength.

Of course Lillards shooting metrics are better. He plays in the no hand check era. Since the ERAs are so different, let's look at relative awards.

Iverson his 14 seasons

League MVP x1
All Star x11
All Star MVP x2
NBA First Team x3
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x4
NBA Steals Leader x3
NBA Minutes Played Leader x2
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x2
NBA Usage Leader x5


Lillard in his 9 seasons

League MVP x0
All Star x6
All Star MVP x0
NBA First Team x1
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x0
NBA Steals Leader x0
NBA Minutes Played Leader x1
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x0
NBA Usage Leader x0
 

Chris_Sanders

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Dikembe in 2000-01 with Philadelphia - 12.5 pts, 13.2 rebounds, 2.7 blocks. He played in the All-Star Game that year and was NBA Defensive Player of the Year, so I guess he was a lively corpse.

This is not correct. 11.7 points, 12.4 rebounds, 2.5 blocks. All of which were below his time in Denver.

The next season he averaged 11.5, 10.8 rebounds, and 2.4 blocks.

Then he fell off the cliff and never averaged more than 6 points a game.
 

Lorenzo

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It would have been nice if the Mavericks had removed the other LA team from the playoff race. They came so close

The Clippers shooting was uncanny in game 7 and once they get going they are hard to stop. It didn't help the Mavericks bench only produced 6 points. Yes, Seth Curry would have helped.
I still think alot of those players including Paul George are very unpredictable. they are all very talented, but they are like a box of chocolates. KL though is a grown man. he has the confidence of all the NBA greats that have come before him. If they are able to hit their outside shots, and PG plays to his ability, they could be like 2011 mavs and win it all with one superstar. I consider PG to be a great number 2 scorer, but he's not a superstar player for me. I do like his demeanor so far in these playoffs. He looks like he is confident.
 

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Of course Lillards shooting metrics are better. He plays in the no hand check era. Since the ERAs are so different, let's look at relative awards.

Iverson his 14 seasons

League MVP x1
All Star x11
All Star MVP x2
NBA First Team x3
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x4
NBA Steals Leader x3
NBA Minutes Played Leader x2
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x2
NBA Usage Leader x5


Lillard in his 9 seasons

League MVP x0
All Star x6
All Star MVP x0
NBA First Team x1
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x0
NBA Steals Leader x0
NBA Minutes Played Leader x1
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x0
NBA Usage Leader x0

Lillard played during the peak-Steph/Harden era so it’s hard to take anything away from that.
 

Ronin

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WhyAlwaysMe

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Of course Lillards shooting metrics are better. He plays in the no hand check era. Since the ERAs are so different, let's look at relative awards.

Iverson his 14 seasons

League MVP x1
All Star x11
All Star MVP x2
NBA First Team x3
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x4
NBA Steals Leader x3
NBA Minutes Played Leader x2
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x2
NBA Usage Leader x5


Lillard in his 9 seasons

League MVP x0
All Star x6
All Star MVP x0
NBA First Team x1
NBA Second Team x3
NBA Third Team x1
NBA Scoring Champion x0
NBA Steals Leader x0
NBA Minutes Played Leader x1
NBA Free Throws Made Leader x0
NBA Usage Leader x0

Since Iverson was allowed to hand check why was he such an awful defender? You can’t have it both ways.

MVP voting is always about narrative, and often has far less to do with actual impact/value. To wit, in 2000-2001, the year the writers (lol) awarded him MVP AI was

19th in RAPM
10th in Win Shares
12th in WS/48
6th in BPM
6th in VORP

Lillard, this year, is

9th in RAPM
3rd in Win Shares
9th in WS/48
10th in BPM
5th in VORP

Impact metrics strip away all the awful biases that afflict media members that vote on awards. Lillard is absolutely in Iverson’s orbit. His peak is better.
 

Chris_Sanders

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You consider that falling off a cliff? How many guys in the entire league averaged double digit points, rebounds and 2 and half blocks?!?!

You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

He went from 11.5 PPG to 6. Rebounds cut in half too.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Since Iverson was allowed to hand check why was he such an awful defender? You can’t have it both ways.

MVP voting is always about narrative, and often has far less to do with actual impact/value. To wit, in 2000-2001, the year the writers (lol) awarded him MVP AI was

19th in RAPM
10th in Win Shares
12th in WS/48
6th in BPM
6th in VORP

Lillard, this year, is

9th in RAPM
3rd in Win Shares
9th in WS/48
10th in BPM
5th in VORP

Impact metrics strip away all the awful biases that afflict media members that vote on awards. Lillard is absolutely in Iverson’s orbit. His peak is better.

Lead the league in scoring 4x and steals 3x.

Your advanced metric stats don't "Win" anything.
 

Hoop Head

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That's a bit ridiculous. For those curious, Steph made a post about Seth killing it the other night and Morey shared the post while writing "Join'em" in the quote tweet. Definitely not worth a fine, IMO.

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WhyAlwaysMe

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Lillard played during the peak-Steph/Harden era so it’s hard to take anything away from that.

That’s why impact metrics are helpful. Lillard’s are > Iverson’s during his era. Apples to apples.
 

WhyAlwaysMe

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At any rate, in 2000-01 Mutombo was 2nd Team All-NBA, Defensive Player of the Year and an All-Star in 2000-01, which is certainly more than "a corpse"

What he did a couple of years later is irrelevant.

Anchor of top5 defense (better player than McCollum).
 

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