3 men rush

[az1965]

I absolutely hate, loathe, despise the 3 men rush CP uses...

Whenever we used that yesterday, McNabb had all the time in the world, and I mean ALL THE TIME, and completed almost all including deep balls.

I even noticed couple of times that one of the edge guys (don't remember the number) completely gave up and was just standing there while McNabb still had the ball in his hand. This was in the 3rd quarter.

We don't have good pass rushers that we can get away with 3 men rushing!! How difficult is this to understand??? And when has it ever worked for us???

"If we crashed down on (McNabb), we felt we could limit his mobility in the pocket, throw off-balance," Watson said. "They had a couple of holding penalties. I know a lot of people felt we weren't putting pressure on him, but that was all part of the game plan."

Huh? Part of the plan to let McNabb sit there and do whatever he wants?

On the contrary, whenever we blitzed and rushed more than three, we put pressure and caused several rushed throws by McNabb even to open men.

If someone like myself with limited football knowledge can see this so obviously, why is the coaching staff having problem understanding this???

We need to either
- completely give up on this crap 3 men rush
- upgrade pass rushing talent and get at least one elite pass rusher

 

[anks106]

I agree completely, every time they did I started freakin out.. the one thing I disagree with is where you said one guy just stopped completely, I thought he had contain, but might have been wrong.

 

[az1965]

No, I vividly remember the guy just giving up and standing there while McNabb was still moving in the pocket, which was as huge as the stadium itself... don't remember who it was though.

 

[vince56]

You blitz an inexperienced QB, you play coverage on veteran QBs.

Watch the game again and put yourself in the Eagles' shoes yesterday. They blitzed Warner all day. How well did that genius philosophy work out for them?

 

[Folster]

I agree. The three man rush was killing me especially on third down. It's ridiculous to expect our linebackers to stay with Westbrook while McNabb has all day.

 

[SuperSpck]

In a lot of the cases, the DE's weren't rushing as much as they were playing contain.

Remember the Cardinals' last two opponents were teams that thrived off running the ball. This makes for a contest of wills on the LOS.
The teams who dictates usually ends up winning.

The Eagles are a passing team, who have a lot in common with the mid-season Cardinals. The Cardinal D had to have a different plan coming into the week, play style demanded it.

So you saw a lot of variation, including what's mostly a 1-man rush. We also saw a variety of blitzes, used sparingly.

Was it the perfect game plan? No, but Whisenhunt's familiarity with the Steelers' offense (and defense) will mean something new in 2 weeks. Somewhere between the three games we've seen so far.

The Steelers can pass and run effectively, so it's going to take a lot of solid prep.

 

[az1965]

You blitz an inexperienced QB, you play coverage on veteran QBs.

Watch the game again and put yourself in the Eagles' shoes yesterday. They blitzed Warner all day. How well did that genius philosophy work out for them?

Not always... an experienced QB will pick you apart like McNabb did in the 3rd when you give all day to make decisions. But whenever we put pressure on him, he misfired several of them (quarters 1, 2, and 4).

You cannot compare our offense... it is just uncanny. We have done it all season beating the blitz. Really, I believe we are really under appreciated on how we have handled pressure throughout the season and playoffs.

 

[az1965]

Was it the perfect game plan? No, but Whisenhunt's familiarity with the Steelers' offense (and defense) will mean something new in 2 weeks. Somewhere between the three games we've seen so far.

The Steelers can pass and run effectively, so it's going to take a lot of solid prep.

Fortunately, we have 2 weeks to prepare... and I agree, there will be tweaks required for the Steelers.

 

[DoTheDew]

You blitz an inexperienced QB, you play coverage on veteran QBs.

Watch the game again and put yourself in the Eagles' shoes yesterday. They blitzed Warner all day. How well did that genius philosophy work out for them?

At least send 4 in those situations. You cannot give a veteran QB all day to throw. He will find someone open. Unless it is a Hail Mary to the endzone situation there is no reason to rush less than 4.

 

[Covert Rain]

Went the Cards went through that long stretch of only rushing 3 I was having ASU Rose Bowl flashbacks. The Cards were playing not to lose during that stretch and it almost cost them the game IMO.

 

[slanidrac16]

How can anybody be upset about anybody today?

 

[az1965]

How can anybody be upset about anybody today?

The season's not over...

You have to look at what almost cost us the game.

Hey, if Boldin can be upset during the drive of destiny...

 

[az1965]

BTW, nice analysis by Kirwan...

Conference title games illustrate league's latest trends
...
4. Pressure is the defense of choice
The final four teams all brought a lot of heat defensively. Sitting back and playing coverage with a four-man rush just isn't the way the game is played anymore. A three-man rush on third and long or a traditional four-man rush has been replaced by zone dogs and snatch blitzes. It's becoming more difficult for quarterbacks to identify which players are really coming.

 

[Nighthawk_Steelers]

I actually think you played it perfectly. Mcnabb might not be as fast anymore, but he is a great passer on the move. You bring too many people in a blitz against a QB with mobility who can create misses, and hit some open WR's down the field it's not a good deal. Containing, bring some pressure and trying to cover the WR's down the field and hope to force him to make a bad throw against double coverage seems like a wise choice.

 

[SpokaneCardfan]

I absolutely hate, loathe, despise the 3 men rush CP uses...

Whenever we used that yesterday, McNabb had all the time in the world, and I mean ALL THE TIME, and completed almost all including deep balls.

I even noticed couple of times that one of the edge guys (don't remember the number) completely gave up and was just standing there while McNabb still had the ball in his hand. This was in the 3rd quarter.

We don't have good pass rushers that we can get away with 3 men rushing!! How difficult is this to understand??? And when has it ever worked for us???

Huh? Part of the plan to let McNabb sit there and do whatever he wants?

On the contrary, whenever we blitzed and rushed more than three, we put pressure and caused several rushed throws by McNabb even to open men.

If someone like myself with limited football knowledge can see this so obviously, why is the coaching staff having problem understanding this???

We need to either
- completely give up on this crap 3 men rush
- upgrade pass rushing talent and get at least one elite pass rusher

The play you are talking about where the player gave up was Bertrand Berry. I think my jaw hit the floor when I was watching that. The only excuse for that was I think he thought the play was over. He seemed to look around for a second and realized McNabb still had the ball and went after him again. Hope he learns to play until he hears a whistle.

 

[az1965]

I actually think you played it perfectly. Mcnabb might not be as fast anymore, but he is a great passer on the move. You bring too many people in a blitz against a QB with mobility who can create misses, and hit some open WR's down the field it's not a good deal. Containing, bring some pressure and trying to cover the WR's down the field and hope to force him to make a bad throw against double coverage seems like a wise choice.

But it worked in the first half and the 4th quarter, our most successful defensive quarters, and did not in the 3rd when we went away from it to 3 men rush...

 

[az1965]

The play you are talking about where the player gave up was Bertrand Berry. I think my jaw hit the floor when I was watching that. The only excuse for that was I think he thought the play was over. He seemed to look around for a secong and realized McNabb still had the ball and went after him again. Hope he learns to play until he hears a whistle.

If it was really Berry then all I can say is WOW... I really like Berry but this is the second time it has happenned... he did the same against Patriots and I defended him but this is not acceptable.

 

[perivolaki]

In a lot of the cases, the DE's weren't rushing as much as they were playing contain.

Remember the Cardinals' last two opponents were teams that thrived off running the ball. This makes for a contest of wills on the LOS.
The teams who dictates usually ends up winning.

The Eagles are a passing team, who have a lot in common with the mid-season Cardinals. The Cardinal D had to have a different plan coming into the week, play style demanded it.

So you saw a lot of variation, including what's mostly a 1-man rush. We also saw a variety of blitzes, used sparingly.

Was it the perfect game plan? No, but Whisenhunt's familiarity with the Steelers' offense (and defense) will mean something new in 2 weeks. Somewhere between the three games we've seen so far.

The Steelers can pass and run effectively, so it's going to take a lot of solid prep.

I agree with your analysis. They were worried about letting McNabb out of the pocket. He is much more effective passing on the move and can make plays with his legs. In fact his running can be a back breaker.

I also agree that you have to show different looks. I think a constant supply of Blitzs gets us beat with big plays. The blitz worked because they used it sparingly and it caught them off guard.

 

[bestco]

You blitz an inexperienced QB, you play coverage on veteran QBs.

Watch the game again and put yourself in the Eagles' shoes yesterday. They blitzed Warner all day. How well did that genius philosophy work out for them?

In the first half they didn't blitz Warner enough (or Cards offense did a good job picking up the blitz), but they blizted Warner on 3rd quarter more frequently and that worked and the Cards offense went 3 n out on 3 pocessions (no 1st down on the 3rd quarter).

 

[bestco]

You are 100% right!

That 3rd quarter was so painful to watch. Everyone and their dog could see the 3-men rush by Cards wasn't working, for some reason the Cards coaching still kept calling the same stupid play (I see somebody with a very stuborn mind..lol)...McNabb had all day and night to throw in those situations, and he took the advantage and totally picked apart the Cards defense in the 3rd and 4th quarter. If they call the play every once in a while I can understand, but calling it so frequently while it failed to work is just obsurb. I don''t care who the QB is (experienced or inexperienced), when you give somebody that much time to throw, he will find an open receiver. There was no excuse to lose a 18 pt lead in just a little over a quarter period, fortunately it took the Cardinals' offense one last drive (and a crucial 4th down) to come back to beat the Eagles. But you can't play like that against the Steelers.

I hope the Cards coaching staff sees this and won't make the same mistake in SB (somehow I have a feeling they will call the same stupid play again).

I absolutely hate, loathe, despise the 3 men rush CP uses...

Whenever we used that yesterday, McNabb had all the time in the world, and I mean ALL THE TIME, and completed almost all including deep balls.

I even noticed couple of times that one of the edge guys (don't remember the number) completely gave up and was just standing there while McNabb still had the ball in his hand. This was in the 3rd quarter.

We don't have good pass rushers that we can get away with 3 men rushing!! How difficult is this to understand??? And when has it ever worked for us???

Huh? Part of the plan to let McNabb sit there and do whatever he wants?

On the contrary, whenever we blitzed and rushed more than three, we put pressure and caused several rushed throws by McNabb even to open men.

If someone like myself with limited football knowledge can see this so obviously, why is the coaching staff having problem understanding this???

We need to either
- completely give up on this crap 3 men rush
- upgrade pass rushing talent and get at least one elite pass rusher

 

[Hughc]

It's like the old cliche, 'if it's not broke, don't fix it.'

If rushing four (or five) has worked all game, why change it at the end of the game?

If you want to give the secondary help, then force the QB to throw on the run, without planting his feet, with poor passing lanes, without time to survey the field, before a receiver has run his route, etc.

The benefit of a pass ruch and pressure on the QB is greater than the benefit of an extra defensive back.

 

[newbetterbucs07]

I totally agree with you. The 3 man rush got no pressure on McNabb and gave him so much time to throw the ball. With no pressure, a good QB can pick apart defense's.

 

[Gaddabout]

You blitz an inexperienced QB, you play coverage on veteran QBs.

This is not universally true. Against veteran pocket QBs (and McNabb is something like that these days) you mix your coverages and blitz schemes. You show one thing and do another. You're hoping he makes a fatal pre-snap read, because if you give any veteran QB two seconds and a clear view down field, they're going to bust your zones -- especially in the NFL where every team has a tight end and running backs who can catch and receivers with adjustable routes. It's not like college where you can sit back in Cover 2 or Quarters and expect someone to make a play.

The most popular schemes today are geared to allow completions on 3rd down. Basically, they bait QBs into a hot read short of the first-down marker, but keep linebackers and safeties in short zones to make the tackle before they convert. The Cards schemes -- especially with 3-down linemen -- are attempting to do just that, but McNabb kept finding man coverage and big holes in the zones down the sidelines and making big plays.

There's really no one way you can attack a veteran QB. You have to have a multiple scheme that includes a lot of mixed coverages and blitzes. It's no surprise Celek caught 10 balls, because McNabb was making the right reads regardless what the Cards did. Then they went straight man and McNabb burned DRC (barely) on that deep touchdown. You can bet the Steelers will have several plays drawn up for Heath Miller, because that's how you attack the Cards whether they're blitzing or sitting back in coverage.