8/25/2004 Insider

[sunsfn]

NBA game simply doesn't translate

By Terry Brown
NBA Insider

Wednesday, August 25

Before Team USA was blown out by Puerto Rico in its first game of the 2004 Olympics, Pau Gasol and the Spaniards beat NBA all-star Yao Ming and the Chinese, 83-58.


Gasol

Yao
On the same day two-time NBA MVP Tim Duncan and the U.S. lost to Lithuania to fall to 2-2 in pool play, Spain's Jose Manuel Calderon scored 15 points in a win over defending world champion Serbia-Montenegro.
Now, three-time NBA scoring champ Allen Iverson and his U.S. mates face Spain on the world stage in what many believe could signal the end of basketball supremacy for the U.S.
One more loss Thursday and Team USA will go home as the seventh or eighth best international team. One more win for Spain and it moves to 6-0 in Athens.
And while many are wondering why the Americans don't have a shooter on the roster, didn't have more than 10 days to practice or haven't figured out the trapezoid lane, there is another question that begs to be asked.
How would Spain, or any other international team, fare in the NBA?
How would they do on our courts with our rectangular lane, extended 3-point line and dotted half-circle under the basket?


LeBron James tore up the NBA as a rookie, but it took him a while to figure out the international game.
"They would struggle," said an NBA scout who has spent the last six summers of his life helping coach a foreign team in international competition. "They would do very poorly. Our power players would really beat them up inside. I would say that over an NBA season, they wouldn't win more than 20 or so games."
Not 19 or 21. But 20. As in 20-62 or eight fewer wins than the hapless Clippers won last season, or three fewer than the cursed Chicago Bulls, or one fewer than the miserable Orlando Magic, lost 19 in a row in November.
A 20-62 record would have made them the worst squad in the 29-team NBA last season and quite possibly the worst of next season's 30-team NBA.
"They're not very big and not very physical," said the scout. "Plus, the NBA game is a lot longer."
But this is Spain, the team that beat China by 25 and tournament favorite Argentina by 11. Spain also beat Italy, which had beaten Team USA in an exhibition before the Olympics started, and defending world champion Serbia-Montenegro. This is the team led by Gasol and his 18.2 points per game -- three points better than Duncan's 15.6 average.
But, then again, this is not the NBA. It's the Olympics, where they play with international rules, international referees and international pick-and-rolls at the top of the key.
But isn't this our game? The one with Air Hightops and traveling circuses on video and Stephon Marbury getting paid $13.5 million a season in the States and averaging only 3.4 assists abroad?
"Not all of the world wants to change to the NBA," said the scout. "I've spent the last six years watching international basketball, and it's been a very eye-opening experience. It's been a lot of fun. But these players in Serbia and Germany and Greece, they've got their own style of play that they enjoy. They have their own game that they like."
So -- gasp -- does that mean the country that invented the game with a peach basket and perfected it with 6-foot-9 point guards and 7-foot small forwards will change to reflect the international game of basketball?
"I hope so," said the scout. "But until we understand that there is a difference between individual skills and one-on-one skills, it isn't going to happen. We pamper our players too much. And the same thing that makes the NBA so good is the same thing that will be its downfall -- athleticism."
But as it stands now, there is one thing certain. The NBA game and the international game are two different things. The rules, the court, the mentality mix together to form two dissimilar versions of the same game.


Jefferson
Put Richard Jefferson, an NBA all-star in waiting, on the international scene and you get an 0-for-7 night against Greece. At the same time, put Sarunas Jasikevicius and his 16 points per game in Athens in the NBA, and he doesn't even get drafted.
Jefferson vs. Jasikevicius.

U.S. vs. the World.

"I still think we can come away with the Gold," the scout said, but he noted at least one more difference that could keep the NBA guys from that goal. "Their all-stars just know how to pass."

 

[SweetD]

Thanks for the post

 

[cepstrum]

What is the point of this insider??? Can anyone clue me in? Whenever I see Terry Brown's name acrross the top Im going to just stop reading from now on.

 

[George O'Brien]

I almost forgot Brown wrote it, there wasn't the endless misuse of statistics that defines his style.

My only problem with his piece is that it is old news. He didn't even discuss the question of whether Artest would have been a better choice than Jefferson although his comments have been in the news and that the USA team's real downfall has been on defense.

It is not original to point out that the NBA emphasizes one on one basketball, athleticism, and physical strength while international basketball emphasizes team play and fundimental skills. The question he fails to address is whether the NBA SHOULD change the rules to make its game closer to the international style.

 

[elindholm]

thleticism

I know this was just a typo, but it inspires me to make a joke. We should start spelling it "athletcsm," because "There's no 'I' in athletcsm"!

 

[scotsman13]

He didn't even discuss the question of whether Artest would have been a better choice than Jefferson although his comments have been in the news and that the USA team's real downfall has been on defense.

artist will never play for usa basketball. heck i am shocked that they invited AI to be on the team. the usa team that had larry johnson, shawn kemp etc. left a mark on usa basketball that they will try to live down for a long time. where players did everything they could to bad mouth and make the players from other countries look and feel like they should be ashamed for even being on the court at the same them. artest has a history of being a poor sport and the us doesnt want a repeat of the past.

 

[Lars the Red]

What is the point of this insider??? Can anyone clue me in? Whenever I see Terry Brown's name acrross the top Im going to just stop reading from now on.

His point is pretty clear to me.

So -- gasp -- does that mean the country that invented the game with a peach basket and perfected it with 6-foot-9 point guards and 7-foot small forwards will change to reflect the international game of basketball?
"I hope so," said the scout. "But until we understand that there is a difference between individual skills and one-on-one skills, it isn't going to happen. We pamper our players too much. And the same thing that makes the NBA so good is the same thing that will be its downfall -- athleticism."

Our game is just that, OUR GAME. Not the game of basketball being played worldwide. It's the NBA. It's number one component is athleticism, not skill. This says it more than anything else, to me.

"I've spent the last six years watching international basketball, and it's been a very eye-opening experience. It's been a lot of fun.

The international game is fun. It's a pleasure to watch. The NBA is simply ugly. Those occasional fantastic athletic displays can't make up for the incredible amount of simply bad basketball that make up for the majority of the game.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think there is a coorelation between the decline in fundimental skills and the way NBA general managers draft. It seems like every GM tries to find the next Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett and focuses "potential" rather than developed skills. The only guys who stay in college long enough to learn anything are the ones with limited athletic ability.

This wouldn't be so bad, except that coaches don't want to spend the time and effort training players for the next coach to take over. There is no minor league and little time during the season to work on fundimentals. It is easier to simply play the veterans longer minutes than teach young guys how to play.

As for the young stars, the coaches would rather tell them not to shoot than to teach them how to hit their shots. "Attack the basket" and "don't settle for jump shots" is the usual mantra because they know these guys can't shoot. At the same time, if most players can't shoot, then players don't learn how to defend shooters.

 

[slinslin]

The international game is boring and dull. If you don't think so how do you explain that the european leagues aren't anywhere close to the NBA.

Even in europe more people are watching the NBA than the local leagues.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think there is a coorelation between the decline in fundimental skills and the way NBA general managers draft. It seems like every GM tries to find the next Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett and focuses "potential" rather than developed skills. The only guys who stay in college long enough to learn anything are the ones with limited athletic ability.

George, you are on the right track, but the GMs are not to fault. Even when they draft very young players, they may not become the next Kobe or Garnett, but they generally still become better than most of their draft class. The GMs are forced into that position, and I don't think many honestly like the situation. No one likes to make decisions with such a lack of information.

The last CBA instituted the rookie scale contracts. The idea was to keep players from holding out for big deals, and to prevent players from negotiating their draft position based on who will pay them the most. It defintiely has had many good impacts on the league. However, one of the underestimated side effects (at the time) was the reasoning many questionable players would leave early to secure guaranteed money in case the holes in their game became more apparent.


The only real way to fix this is with some sort of age limit. As of now, the NBAPA is vehemently against it. Without one, there is no way for the league to control the young kid phenominom.

 

[Lars the Red]

The international game is boring and dull. If you don't think so how do you explain that the european leagues aren't anywhere close to the NBA.

Even in europe more people are watching the NBA than the local leagues.

What an incredibly stupid comment. The NBA is boring. No one watches during the regular season. You can go to any game in the league on any given night and get great seats. You get maybe 2 or 3 great plays a game, and the rest of the time your bored out of your mind and amazed these guys get a paycheck. The only people that find the NBA stimulating are those that get a real charge out of WWE events and Hip Hop.

The Internationals watch to see guys like Peja, Manu, Yao, Dirk, Nash, Hedo, Gasol, Darko, Zarko, etc.. They laugh their butts off watching the inept play from the street cred boys.

 

[George O'Brien]

The international game is boring and dull. If you don't think so how do you explain that the european leagues aren't anywhere close to the NBA.

Even in europe more people are watching the NBA than the local leagues.

My guess is that if there was a league made up of national teams that played all the time, they would attract pretty good ratings. The local leagues may have one top level player in every third team, but that is hardly what matters.

American minor leagues don't draw any attention, yet some of their players end up in the NBA and a few like Stephen Jackson end up doing very well. The NBA has vastly superior marketing, but that does not mean the style of play is superior.

 

[elindholm]

The only people that find the NBA stimulating are those that get a real charge out of WWE events and Hip Hop.

This is just false. I love watching NBA games, and I don't like WWE or hip hop. You can say that I'm stupid for enjoying the games, if you like, but you can't say that I don't find the games "stimulating."

I haven't watched enough European basketball to know whether I would like it better. I do prefer watching the NBA teams that play a more "European" style, especially the (former) Sacramento Kings when they were firing on all cylinders.

I find NCAA basketball very boring. Is it more or less "European" than the NBA?

 

[devilalum]

artist will never play for usa basketball. heck i am shocked that they invited AI to be on the team. the usa team that had larry johnson, shawn kemp etc. left a mark on usa basketball that they will try to live down for a long time. where players did everything they could to bad mouth and make the players from other countries look and feel like they should be ashamed for even being on the court at the same them. artest has a history of being a poor sport and the us doesnt want a repeat of the past.

Just send the ugliest players. Who cares?

We are the Ugly Americans, why not just embrace the fact. Its not like we're really fooling anybody anymore.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The only people that find the NBA stimulating are those that get a real charge out of WWE events and Hip Hop.

An equally incredibly stupid comment

 

[Lars the Red]

The league is struggling and they know it. Real, true basketball fans are frustrated by the lack of fundamental skills, the star treatment regarding fouls, the obvious violations overlooked, the sight of Shaq charging over an entire team, the horrific 'me first' attitude displayed on the court, the posse's and gangsta look off the court, the PR nightmare that is the players.

You can try to gloss it over all you want, but it's fan base can hardly be considered educated basketball fans. They are style over substance fans.

 

[elindholm]

Real, true basketball fans are frustrated by the lack of fundamental skills... (rest of harangue deleted)

Sure, because you've defined "real, true basketball fans" to mean "fans whose philosophy about the game is the same as mine."

I agree with you that the league would be more appealing if the things you mentioned were addressed and improved. But you can't get anywhere by simply asserting that "educated" fans, by definition, agree with you, and that anyone with an alternative viewpoint is simply ignorant. That's just faulty logic. The game can appeal to different people on different levels, and they can all be "educated" fans.

Who's to say that athletcsm shouldn't be worthy of celebration on its own merits? I personally don't care for the dunk contest, but is anyone who likes it automatically not a "real, true basketball fan"?

There's a difference between arguing your own position strongly and refusing to acknowledge that alternate positions are possible. By straying into the latter category, you undermine your own voice.

 

[Lars the Red]

I haven't watched enough European basketball to know whether I would like it better. I do prefer watching the NBA teams that play a more "European" style, especially the (former) Sacramento Kings when they were firing on all cylinders.

Most people do like to watch teams like the Kings and Mavs. They like offense, passing, ball movement. Believe it or not, I enjoyed watching the Pistons this year, partly because the beat the freakin' Lakers, and partly because the play a pretty solid team game. The Griz are sort of in that style too.

I realize I come off like a prick, and frankly I might be one, but we have everything we'd need to put the game back into place. The problem is someone has to pull the trigger and David Stern aka the anti-Christ isn't the guy that will do it. Listen to what some of these guys they talk to are saying. Larry Brown is all but begging for the league to change.

Playing basketball isn't some right that people have. Look at those guys playing for other teams. You've got a couple of budding NBA stars (Gasol, Manu) and they aren't acting bored, their juiced. You've also got a bunch of guys that are pretty well paid in their respective leagues and their out their jumping around and loving the entire experience. Is there something wrong with enthusiasm? Doesn't it look cool to the boys back home? Will they lose 'cred'?

It's much easier for me to embrace the style and enthusiasm shown by our opponents, than that we see from the guys with USA across the front of their jerseys. I put this in another thread, but it really explains it well for me:

I've always felt the Olympic teams that go to represent the US are there to represent me. They're there to be at that opening for me. They play their sport like I would want to if I had their ability. They get to stand on that platform and represent me. The problem is, too many of them don't act like I would want to act. They don't have the respect for the event like I do. They don't see the honor in representing 280 million of me. They act bored. Or disrespectful. They don't see the sacrifices that many make and never get the opportunity to compete on this stage.

I look at these Dream Teams and I don't see how they represent me. I look at some of the other teams they are competing against and I feel they have more in common with me than the US team does. It's not just the fact that they make buckets of money. It's that they don't really represent me in the way I would hope I would represent them.

 

[elindholm]

I've always felt the Olympic teams that go to represent the US are there to represent me.... The problem is, too many of them don't act like I would want to act.

Welcome to democracy. There's never a guarantee that your so-called "representatives" will do you proud, in any setting. As long as you hold the minority viewpoint, you're going to continue to be frustrated. The only way to effect change is to get people to come over to your side, and you aren't going to do that by telling them they're all idiots.

 

[Lars the Red]

Real, true basketball fans are frustrated by the lack of fundamental skills... (rest of harangue deleted)

Sure, because you've defined "real, true basketball fans" to mean "fans whose philosophy about the game is the same as mine."

I agree with you that the league would be more appealing if the things you mentioned were addressed and improved. But you can't get anywhere by simply asserting that "educated" fans, by definition, agree with you, and that anyone with an alternative viewpoint is simply ignorant. That's just faulty logic. The game can appeal to different people on different levels, and they can all be "educated" fans.

You know what the rules of the game are. You realize that multiple times every night of an NBA game they are completely ignored for the simple reason that the NBA wants flash and they equate flash with amazing physical displays. There are thousand of people that watch these games that don't have a clue that 3 running steps is a violation. That 90% of the crossovers are traveling. That Kobe, TMac, whoever, wouldn't be able to drive to the basket half the time if that little circle hadn't been put there so they could put on a show. That Shaq always initiates contact and should actually foul out most games. You know the difference, but choose to find some value in the entertainment. I'd be shocked if you didn't see the NBA as some morphed version of an otherwise great game. Most educated fans of basketball do. Many NBA fans don't.

Who's to say that athletcsm shouldn't be worthy of celebration on its own merits? I personally don't care for the dunk contest, but is anyone who likes it automatically not a "real, true basketball fan"?

On it's own merits, in the natural flow of the game, without artificial efforts to stimulate those displays, fine. The problem is we don't get that. We get calls and rules that have made the game little more than one purely athletic move after another. The dunk contest is what it is. A show. A display. Not a game. Not the sport. I don't have a problem with it, heck we had them all the time after practice, but it's not the game.

There's a difference between arguing your own position strongly and refusing to acknowledge that alternate positions are possible. By straying into the latter category, you undermine your own voice.

I have no disagreement there. It's very difficult to see what was a great sport, and a great league, degenerate into a sham. We have the greatest athletes in the world at our disposal, and at one time, they were the envy of the world. Now, most of the world doesn't see them as anything more than selfish, talentless, unskilled frauds, that make millions and dupe the public. Every guy in the NBA today could and should have a better grasp of the fundamentals of the game, and should realize the immense talent they could bring to the court if the played as a team instead of as individuals. I only hope that we will see the changes necessary to put those fantastic athletes into a position to be fantastic basketball players once again.

 

[Lars the Red]

I've always felt the Olympic teams that go to represent the US are there to represent me.... The problem is, too many of them don't act like I would want to act.

Welcome to democracy. There's never a guarantee that your so-called "representatives" will do you proud, in any setting. As long as you hold the minority viewpoint, you're going to continue to be frustrated. The only way to effect change is to get people to come over to your side, and you aren't going to do that by telling them they're all idiots.

I don't think I'm in the minority anymore, based on the news articles, interviews and fan reaction. I think we are starting to all get very tired of seeing an inferior product from a skill standpoint.

I really like some of the comments guys make around here, and you can tell there are some sharp basketball minds. I guess what disappoints in that I would assume most can see through the NBA game for what it is. The way it's played, the way it's marketed, the impression the players give us. And when I say players, I don't mean all of them, because you've got some really solid players out there that understand that kids look up to them and they are very fortunate to have the opportunity. It just seems like these days, those guys I just mentioned are the exception, not the norm. There's a decided lack of respect for the game, it's history, and the fans. I just want it to change, and change soon. I have a son that's 5 and I hope he get's to see some of the great ball I used to watch when I was a kid. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[elindholm]

You know what the rules of the game are. You realize that multiple times every night of an NBA game they are completely ignored for the simple reason that the NBA wants flash and they equate flash with amazing physical displays.

I completely agree with you there. It does drive me crazy, and it certainly weakens the game considerably. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it destroys the game, but it could if it gets much worse.

And you're probably right that a lot of fans are ignorant of how rampant the rule-ignoring is. I don't know whether it's enough fans to constitute a majority, but it is a lot. So they are indeed "ignorant" in that sense. Or they don't care, which is just as bad, maybe even worse.

We get calls and rules that have made the game little more than one purely athletic move after another.

True. In fact, I have consistenly been one of the more vocal members on this board with respect to complaining about how "star treatment" makes for an unlevel playing field and a severely compromised product. I'm just not convinced that it's an issue of fundamentals. Are the "star rules" in effect because the players can't shoot, or is it more complicated than that? And getting back to what started this discussion, is shaming the current Olympic team part of the solution? I really don't see how.

Now, most of the world doesn't see them as anything more than selfish, talentless, unskilled frauds, that make millions and dupe the public.

I don't think that's true. For better or worse, the American entertainment culture has pretty much taken over the world, or at least Europe. Slinslin (who lives in Germany) reports that U.S. basketball players are still the most-watched, most-followed, and most-envied stars, even on the home turf of players and teams who still play the game "the right way." My guess is he's telling the truth.

I only hope that we will see the changes necessary to put those fantastic athletes into a position to be fantastic basketball players once again.

We really don't disagree by much -- just in the details of the argument.

 

[cepstrum]

His point is pretty clear to me. Our game is just that, OUR GAME. Not the game of basketball being played worldwide. It's the NBA. It's number one component is athleticism, not skill. This says it more than anything else, to me. The international game is fun. It's a pleasure to watch. The NBA is simply ugly. Those occasional fantastic athletic displays can't make up for the incredible amount of simply bad basketball that make up for the majority of the game.

First of all, Terry Brown is simply repeating what everyone else is saying. There is absolutely no new or insightful information from this insider. Second of all, you are misjudging the NBA. The point is, these people can play and very few of them rely solely on athleticism. You are jduging the NBA by looking at the success that the olympic team has had and that is just plain crazy. The average age of that team is 23, whereas most of the competition is much older and much more experienced.

If your point is that maybe some of these kids in the NBA should be staying in school longer in order to work on fundamentals, than that might have some value, but to simply dismiss the NBA as something that can only be liked by hip hop listening, wwe watching people is ignorant.

 

[Lars the Red]

First of all, Terry Brown is simply repeating what everyone else is saying. There is absolutely no new or insightful information from this insider. Second of all, you are misjudging the NBA. The point is, these people can play and very few of them rely solely on athleticism. You are jduging the NBA by looking at the success that the olympic team has had and that is just plain crazy. The average age of that team is 23, whereas most of the competition is much older and much more experienced.

If your point is that maybe some of these kids in the NBA should be staying in school longer in order to work on fundamentals, than that might have some value, but to simply dismiss the NBA as something that can only be liked by hip hop listening, wwe watching people is ignorant.

That's your opinion and after watching countless games over the years, I'd have to say it's not based on fact. The truth is there just aren't many players in the NBA that have a complete, solid game. Many have one part of their game that they utilize to fill a need on a team, but the number of players that have all-around basketball skills isn't many and gets fewer every year.

 

[Gaddabout]

Basketball fans want to see good basketball. Basketball fans make up very small margin of all people who buy tickets or watch NBA games on TV. This is how I'd break it down based on my cynical guesstimates:

15 percent: Corporate brokers attempting to capture the glamor of American pro sports as something to offer clients when they come to town. These are the floor seats that sit empty more than half the time.

75 percent: Casual fans who will only buy season tickets when the team is REALLY good, and whose knowledge of the the game rarely extends beyond the coach and the best two or three players on their own team.

10 percent: Fanatics who don't need a great player or a great season to buy into the team agenda. These are people that grew up rooting for the team and, if only by mere time and osmosis, learned a great deal about basketball. These are people who own season tickets if they can afford them, and spend an inoordinate amount of time on talk radio and internet message boards discussing the ups and downs of their team.

So if you're the NBA commish and the bulk of your organization's income comes from television, which audience are you going to cater to? Not that 10 percent. That's wasted resource, since knowledgeable fans need no sales pitch. They're going to watch the games if only to gripe about how much better the game was played 10, 20, 50 years ago.

I admit, I was a bit baffled by the addition of zone defense. That seemed to be a nod towards rational basketball thinking and not in line with the showtime the NBA wants to feature. I guess they're thinking nobody knows how to pass, move without the ball or play decent defense anymore, so parity is better than a game featuring teams missing much more than than they make.

I can see your point, but I'm not going to sit here and rant and rave about it, Lars. This kind of change is inevitable. We have no control. My dad said the same thing as I was watching one of the Lakers/Celtics finals in the 80s. In my mind it was some of the best fundamental basketball between two teams in the history of the game. It may have been the pinnacle of the game. But he was convinced players were more interested in showtime and TV face time than "playing the game the way it's supposed to be played."

I don't want to become my father. I will accept change and enjoy the nuances I learned from another era when the game was played differently, not better or worse.