A Graves Situation

Harry

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People keep asking me what’s wrong with the Cardinals? The answer is easy; personnel. How fast can you name a top running back either drafted or signed by Graves? How about doing the same with an offensive tackle? Looking for a pass rusher? Well they did sign Bertrand Berry, but you’d be hard pressed to come up with another name. It’s quicker to think of the ones he missed, like Suggs.

Graves has done well drafting receivers, but then traded away one record setter and let another 1000yd (I know only once) receiver leave. Hoping for a top tight end? Well maybe Graves got you one on the downside of his career. That’s when Graves gets his best players. He seems to sign people based on their career stats. Think about Emmitt Smith, Edgerrin James, Vonnie Holliday (this season) and a host of others.

Fitzgerald had to pick out a quarterback for Graves! It’s not like Graves has typically been drafting late in rounds during his tenure. Oh sure he’s hit on a few mid-round selections, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. You would be hard pressed to find a more incompetent set of first round choices. Only Fitzgerald stands out. Rolle, DRC and Wells would be classed as serviceable. Wendell Bryant, Bryant Johnson, Pace, Leinart and Brown do not resemble first round quality. The Cards keeping talking about all the picks making the team. The only reason that happens is that those selections keep displacing underachievers from the previous drafts. They are usually not upgrades.

Once again this team will finish with a losing record in a division of teams with losing records. Another 7-9 winner (probably SF) will likely spell the end of teams with losing records going to the playoffs while 10 win teams watch. The Cards can keep bringing in DCs, but little will change. No one can defend with personnel of this quality. Unless the latest generation of Bidwills is seeking to be Dollar Bill the Second, he needs to remold this organization, not just this team. That process starts with Graves!
 

Cardiac

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Doesn't some of this fall on Steve Keim?

If replacing RG improves this teams ability to collect more talent then I'm all for it.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Doesn't some of this fall on Steve Keim?

If replacing RG improves this teams ability to collect more talent then I'm all for it.

Yep.

It fall on the whole organization. Someone had to beg to draft Anquan Boldin for Pete's sake.

He is probably fired by this point, and now we have Russ Grimm begging to draft Levi Brown.
 

Jasper

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I'm not sure if Graves can take 100% of the blame.
It could be the scouting department, it could be requests from the coaches, maybe the coaches can't teach or evaluate talent or even worse play people in the wrong positions.
I'm not sure if Graves has the final say on everything personnel wise.
 

Cardiac

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I'm not sure if Graves can take 100% of the blame.
It could be the scouting department, it could be requests from the coaches, maybe the coaches can't teach or evaluate talent or even worse play people in the wrong positions.
I'm not sure if Graves has the final say on everything personnel wise.

Graves job by definition is having the final say on everything personnel wise.

Conraddobbler has been saying this for awhile and I agree with him, we need a GM who has a plan and knows what's best for the team and can tell Whiz or whoever that no we don't need Faneca or Porter because they no longer have the skills to play at a top level.

IIRC I've read that RG doesn't watch much if any film on college players, that's more then a bit damning.

I don't think RG is the worst GM in football but I also don't think he is in the top 15 either.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Harry is dead on and he didn't even mention Graves's abysmal free agency record. With all the holes on this team, Graves best FA acquisition this past year was a blocking TE. People keep saying give Bradley time(heard the same thing about Adam Dunn with Whitse Sox). BS, the guy is a bust. We're a 1/4 way into the season and he still hasn't moved ahead of Reggie Walker. 10 mill bonus and 25 mill contract for a 3rd stringer.

Graves is, and has been the problem for years. It baffles me that a seemingly smart guy like Mike Bidwill can't see that. I like Whiz alot as a coach but if we had to sacrifice him to get a legit GM, who would likely hire his own HC, then so be it. Need any more evidence just look at how Detroit has turned it around once they got rid of the one GM who rivaled Graves in ineptness. Atlanta has been good since they hired Dmitroff from NE. Teams with bad GM's are consistently drafting in the top 10. Mike Brown in Cincy, Graves here, Detroit when Millen was in control, The Raiders with a senile Al Davis, SF with York or whoever it is now,.
 

slanidrac16

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The saddest part of this whole post is when we do make a good pick, that player ends up walking away.

There is no reason to have left Hightower go, EVEN IF RYAN WILLIAMS DOESN'T GET HURT.
Breaston was a gamer. Having him here today would not be a detriment to this team...in fact neither would Boldin.
Dansby would have a hard time cracking this line-up huh?
Rolle would be starting ahead of Wilson, or at should be.

It's like beating a dead horse.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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The saddest part of this whole post is when we do make a good pick, that player ends up walking away.

There is no reason to have left Hightower go, EVEN IF RYAN WILLIAMS DOESN'T GET HURT.
Breaston was a gamer. Having him here today would not be a detriment to this team...in fact neither would Boldin.
Dansby would have a hard time cracking this line-up huh?
Rolle would be starting ahead of Wilson, or at should be.

It's like beating a dead horse.
Excellent point. The Cards are like the old Montreal Expos in baseball. When they get some good players, they leave when they hit FA. At least the Expos had the excuse of no money to sign them. Graves has no excuse. You notice Bidwill took the lead to get Fitz signed. Hell, Graves almost messed up the slam-dunk situation that was Kurt Warner.

It's funny when people say Pittsburgh lets their players go. They don't let their good ones go. Woodley, Hampton, Harrison, Polamalu, Ward, Ben, Farrior, are re-signed. They let their old guys(Porter, Haggans), troublemakers(Holmes, Burress) or fringe(McFadden, the RT Graves signed a few years back) players go. Graves lets his good players go and signs fringe players hoping they are suddenly going to turn it around.
 

Buckybird

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The human Snail has been a detriment to the team from the start. Wasn't he a talent evaluator on many poor Bears teams? How about adding TJ McCreight from a terrible Browns orgainzation? Success generally breeds success IMO.

Scouting also has blame, but why is it we seem to draft decent players from lower rounds than the earlier rounds? When you strike out in rds 1-3 more times than not, your team is gonna suck!!! If I'm Michael Bidwill, Graves is shown the door ASAP but we all know thats probably not gonna happen anytime soon.
 

Goldfield

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This should of happened many years ago. At this point I just have a blind eye to ALL the dumb things this organization does to keep its self down.
 

Duckjake

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Excellent point. The Cards are like the old Montreal Expos in baseball. When they get some good players, they leave when they hit FA. At least the Expos had the excuse of no money to sign them. Graves has no excuse. You notice Bidwill took the lead to get Fitz signed. Hell, Graves almost messed up the slam-dunk situation that was Kurt Warner.

It's funny when people say Pittsburgh lets their players go. They don't let their good ones go. Woodley, Hampton, Harrison, Polamalu, Ward, Ben, Farrior, are re-signed. They let their old guys(Porter, Haggans), troublemakers(Holmes, Burress) or fringe(McFadden, the RT Graves signed a few years back) players go. Graves lets his good players go and signs fringe players hoping they are suddenly going to turn it around.

Unbelievable how the Steelers have been able to keep that Defense intact considering they have the rep for letting guys go.

Smith DE 13 years with Pitt
Hampton NT 11 years
Keisel DT 10 years
Woodley OLB 5 years
Farrior ILB 10 years
Timmons ILB 5 years
Harrison OLB 9 years
Polamalu SS 9 years
Ryan Clark FS 6 years
Taylor CB 9 years
McFadden CB 6 of the last 7 years.

Well at least we know what the Cards starting Defense is going to look like in 2013. :p
 

conraddobler

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Unbelievable how the Steelers have been able to keep that Defense intact considering they have the rep for letting guys go.

Smith DE 13 years with Pitt
Hampton NT 11 years
Keisel DT 10 years
Woodley OLB 5 years
Farrior ILB 10 years
Timmons ILB 5 years
Harrison OLB 9 years
Polamalu SS 9 years
Ryan Clark FS 6 years
Taylor CB 9 years
McFadden CB 6 of the last 7 years.

Well at least we know what the Cards starting Defense is going to look like in 2013. :p

hahaha.

We're running the Steelers model with the the good replenishment pipeline, FAIL!
 

40yearfan

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As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.
 

Duckjake

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Now look at some of the key guys on defense for the Cards SB team.

Years with Arizona:

ASmith 4
Okeafor 4
Dockett 5
Berry 5
Hayes 6
Dansby 5
Wilson 8
Rolle 4

That's how you win.
 

Duckjake

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As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

It isn't as usual. Graves was catching flack long before Whisenhunt arrived. And we heaped it on McGinnis and Green back then as well.

When the team goes 5-11 then 1-2 they are all going to catch flack.

You know that at ASFN we are equal opportunity flackers.
 
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Crazy Canuck

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Excellent point. The Cards are like the old Montreal Expos in baseball. When they get some good players, they leave when they hit FA. At least the Expos had the excuse of no money to sign them. Graves has no excuse. You notice Bidwill took the lead to get Fitz signed. Hell, Graves almost messed up the slam-dunk situation that was Kurt Warner.

It's funny when people say Pittsburgh lets their players go. They don't let their good ones go. Woodley, Hampton, Harrison, Polamalu, Ward, Ben, Farrior, are re-signed. They let their old guys(Porter, Haggans), troublemakers(Holmes, Burress) or fringe(McFadden, the RT Graves signed a few years back) players go. Graves lets his good players go and signs fringe players hoping they are suddenly going to turn it around.

Not quite true. We had a Billionaire (Bronfman) who just got tired of paying the bills. That, and the '93 strike when they clearly had the best team in baseball put an end to the dream. A later attempt to revive things by building a comfy downtown ballpark was killed by political bickering. Agree that the Expos had first class scouts... we had talent.

PS: We all may be revising our opinions on whether Pitt has well timed its changeover this season and next.
 

conraddobler

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As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

I've been harping on Graves for a long time 40, probably because I live in KC.

KC is by no means a bastion of NFL greatness but it's about average over time and by watching how the Chiefs do thngs I can tell you that if Graves was in KC he'd of been fired years ago.
 

Krangodnzr

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As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

No offense, but just look at Graves track record!

The only way we made it to the Super Bowl is because when Green came in, he got personnel control and picked the core of the Super Bowl team.

Graves was a huge personnel failure with the Bears before he came here. Ask Bears fans that are familiar with his work, and they will say it was the darkest time for the Bears in the past 30 years.

I believe Whisenhunt can win with talent, but he's not the type of coach that can win with inferior talent (few can). Answer Harry's questions, and it will lead you to the inevitable conclusion that Rod Graves is not the answer. How many good Offensive tackles has Graves drafted? How many good Pass rushers has Graves drafted? The answer is obvious....NONE.
 

conraddobler

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No offense, but just look at Graves track record!

The only way we made it to the Super Bowl is because when Green came in, he got personnel control and picked the core of the Super Bowl team.

Graves was a huge personnel failure with the Bears before he came here. Ask Bears fans that are familiar with his work, and they will say it was the darkest time for the Bears in the past 30 years.

I believe Whisenhunt can win with talent, but he's not the type of coach that can win with inferior talent (few can). Answer Harry's questions, and it will lead you to the inevitable conclusion that Rod Graves is not the answer. How many good Offensive tackles has Graves drafted? How many good Pass rushers has Graves drafted? The answer is obvious....NONE.

Whiz is going down with the ship on this one, there's no way I see Graves getting pryed out of the GM position in time to save him.

To me it's just a question of time until someone else figures this out high enough to get a new GM, could be a long while though based on past experience.

I am moving into the boat that says Whiz isn't worth saving, cause I know he has player input and it aint helping.
 

MrYeahBut

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Cards have changed coaches numerous times during Grave's tenure...with the same results, save a couple years with Whiz.

Who is the common denominator????
 

conraddobler

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Cards have changed coaches numerous times during Grave's tenure...with the same results, save a couple years with Whiz.

Who is the common denominator????

I can not believe that Graves survived the DG era and got promoted out of that.

Michael may have felt guilty for signing off on DG or something, it makes no sense at all.

Getting to the SB cemented him in for about 5 more years minimum IMO.
 

MrYeahBut

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I can not believe that Graves survived the DG era and got promoted out of that.

Michael may have felt guilty for signing off on DG or something, it makes no sense at all.

Getting to the SB cemented him in for about 5 more years minimum IMO.


You know, I've made lots of mistakes hiring people for my company... however they're all gone now. It just takes a combo of admitting you were wrong and the guts to get rid of them.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Spot on Harry, as usual. Graves obviously has compromising pics of old man ice cream with Nazi clothes and hookers. There is no other possible explanation how a decade of incompetence and non-performace continues to be rewarded.
 
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