A Graves Situation

[40yearfan]

because their contracts ended and hit FA where deals are bloated and we didn't have the foresight to lock them up with extensions while we could?

Not really. That is a list of very ordinary players (except for Dansby) so there is no reason to worry about them. They are easily replaced. Dansby was moving on no matter what we did. Even God couldn't have gotten him to stay here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't say we need better players and coaches. See my above comment.

"This team doesn't need better players, it needs players with more heart, players who will play all 60 minutes with the same intensity as they have at the start of the game."

this is what you said... all of that describes BETTER players 40. better players take better care of their bodies, believe in themselves and can make big plays at the end of games. our players who we need to make big impacts are either ancient has beens (OLB/S) who have nothing left at the end of the game because they pretty much have nothing left for their careers or never-weres like Brown/Keith who have been horrendous their entire careers or are just completely out of their league because they're starting at the most difficult position to make a transition in at CB... with a terrible pass rush.

and you say you disagree with me... but can you tell me why you disagree that we don't have horrible OLBs who are ancient? or why AW is still relevant after last season and a terrrible start this season? or what your opinion is off Brown/Keith who have always been liabilities? or why you think Jefferson/Peterson can be depended on so far this season? What is you disagreement based on? Note, I'm not telling you you can't have this opinion, i'm just beyond curious what your opinion is based on.

 

[40yearfan]

"This team doesn't need better players, it needs players with more heart, players who will play all 60 minutes with the same intensity as they have at the start of the game."

this is what you said... all of that describes BETTER players 40. better players take better care of their bodies, believe in themselves and can make big plays at the end of games. our players who we need to make big impacts are either ancient has beens (OLB/S) who have nothing left at the end of the game because they pretty much have nothing left for their careers or never-weres like Brown/Keith who have been horrendous their entire careers or are just completely out of their league because they're starting at the most difficult position to make a transition in at CB... with a terrible pass rush.

and you say you disagree with me... but can you tell me why you disagree that we don't have horrible OLBs who are ancient? or why AW is still relevant after last season and a terrrible start this season? or what your opinion is off Brown/Keith who have always been liabilities? or why you think Jefferson/Peterson can be depended on so far this season? What is you disagreement based on? Note, I'm not telling you you can't have this opinion, i'm just beyond curious what your opinion is based on.

So tell me which better players you are talking about. Do you mean the free agents like the Eagles signed. What players are out there or were out there for us to get? Unless the FO is gifted with precognition, how do we go about acquiring those players.

The last two or three of our drafts have all received good grades from the pundits at the time of the draft. You can't use hindsight to say we should have done something different as that option wasn't available when we were drafting. The same can be said for free agents. It is always a crap shoot and ALL NFL team make good decisions and bad decisions.

You like to look at indiviual positions as being bad or good. All NFL teams are going to have strengths and weaknesses. You need to look at them as a whole. We have the athletes. They are lacking confidence/will to win whatever you want to call it. The Cardinal team that went to the SB probably had less real talent on it than this one does, but they had a leader they were willing to follow into hell. This team doesn't have that and will go nowhere unless someone steps up.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If we had kept Pace and Smith, we probably wouldn't have gotten Campbell.

why? Pace was an OLB, Campbell's a DE. What does one have to do with the other?

I think he is much better than either of them.

He doesn't play the same positoon as Pace. Having him and Pace would be great.

Washington is going to make everyone forget about Dansby.

that's great and all... but what about the other LBer spot... are Paris Lennon and Bradley making people forget about Dansby because the last time I checked, the 3-4 defense needs TWO studs at ILB and we have one... and two awful outside linebackers... since we lost Pace who was solid. why couldn't this team have both Dansby AND Washington? you know pittsburg... that team we're modeled after? they have more than 1 good LBer out of their 4. The idea that Washington will make people forget Dansby makes no sense when the other LBer in the middle is either Paris Lennon or that bigger waste of space Bradley.

and if you want to say "we can't sign everyone Cheese!" well... we sat on 30 million dollars last year and still have 9 million bucks in cap space right now that we could have used to actually make the roster competitive so that doesn't really fly... especially since Washington and Campbell are both still on rookie deals and if we have Dansby and Pace, we wouldn't have spent a stupid amount of money on that waste of space Bradley.

I'd much rather have Rhodes than Rolle and Doucet is having a much better year than Breaston is.

Doucet is having a "much better" year than Breaston? He's got 210 yards to Breaston's 180 and Breaston has come on in the last two games whereas Doucet had one big play in Game 1 of the season... and has done little else since then.

And again, with 9 million in available cap space, why is this Doucet's better than Breaston? Wouldn't it be nice to have Breaston in there instead of Roberts who's a complete waste of space?

So yes, I do think the team would be different with those guys on it, but I don't think it would be any better.

So, a defense of Campbell, Williams, Dockett, Pace, Dansby, Washington, Haggans isn't a stronger front four than Campell, Williams, Dockett, Porter, Lennon/Bradley, Washington, Haggans? Come on... you don't honestly believe that, do you?

A LBing core of Pace, Dansby, Washington and Ouchie would be positively nasty. It would be Pittsburg-esque, but neither Dansby nor Pace ever got contract extensions when it was apparent they were gonna be good. We sat on our hands and let them hit FA... something the Steelers never do.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So tell me which better players you are talking about. Do you mean the free agents like the Eagles signed.

LOL. One team does poorly in FA and you act like that's the end all be all 40. I've talked about which players ad naseum. The list was a mile long for decent CBs (Jonathan Joseph, Carlos Rogers both of whom have played well for their news teams)/OT (Tyson Clabo, Sean Locklear, etc. etc.) that were available in FA and we went after none of them. And at inside LBer Paul Posluzny and Stephen Tulloch were guys I wanted us to look at.

What players are out there or were out there for us to get? Unless the FO is gifted with precognition, how do we go about acquiring those players.

40, what do you the FOs job is but to do exactly that... look at available players and figure out who will play well for us? They decided not to do anything at OT, OLB and signed an absolute washed up bum in Bradley. oh and they signed a CB who was awful last year from the worst team in football when there were a plethora of CBs on the market. this was a HUGE market in FA this year.

The last two or three of our drafts have all received good grades from the pundits at the time of the draft.

that and a quarter will get you a quarter.

You can't use hindsight to say we should have done something different as that option wasn't available when we were drafting. The same can be said for free agents. It is always a crap shoot and ALL NFL team make good decisions and bad decisions.

and we make more bad decisions than good... that can't be honestly argued with the results we've seen on the field from the guys that Wiz/Graves have brought in, can it?

You like to look at indiviual positions as being bad or good. All NFL teams are going to have strengths and weaknesses.

what are our strengths? We have entire units that are awful 40 and it's because they're stocked with players that wouldn't be starting on any other team (Porter, Haggans, Lennon, Jefferson on D all at key positions in a 3-4 D) and terrible Ts. The difference makers in the league play those positions and our players at those positions don't even belong on the field, much less starting.

You need to look at them as a whole. We have the athletes.

40, EVERY team has the athletes... and truthfully, I don't even agree with this. We have zero athletes at LBer except Washington. We don't have serious athletes at WR save Fitz. We have a good D-line and good depth there. We have a good RB. everything else on the field is either over the hill or never weres or big freaking question marks (Kolb).

They are lacking confidence/will to win whatever you want to call it. The Cardinal team that went to the SB probably had less real talent on it than this one does, but they had a leader they were willing to follow into hell.

I'm sorry, but there's no way this is true. The Super Bowl team had PROVEN playmakers all over the place. Boldin, Fitz, Breaston just destroy Fitz, Doucet, Roberts. Prime Wilson, Playmaking Rolle, AJ Jefferson-like Rod Hood and All-Rookie playmaker DRC DESTROY the talent of Over The Hill Wilson, okay player Rhodes, UDFA Jefferson and completely over his head rookie Peterson. And LBer... Berry, Hayes, Dansby, Okeafor blow away the worst linebacking corps in the league.

The D-line now is more talented that the Super Bowl team and Beanie is better than our RBs back then and I'll even say that maybe the O-lines were equal in talent (although this really wasn't the case either). But that's it.

We were superior in talent at LB, WR, QB, and Secondary, equal with O-line and worse with D-line and at RB. How you can argue otherwise is a serious head scratcher to me.

This team doesn't have that and will go nowhere unless someone steps up.

And Warner wasn't just a better leader, he was an infinitely better PLAYER than Kolb. Hard to be a leader when you simply haven't shown the ability to lead the team anywhere.

 

[40yearfan]

why? Pace was an OLB, Campbell's a DE. What does one have to do with the other?

Pace started out as a DE and was moved to LB. Pace had one good year with us and average years since then.
He doesn't play the same positoon as Pace. Having him and Pace would be great.



that's great and all... but what about the other LBer spot... are Paris Lennon and Bradley making people forget about Dansby because the last time I checked, the 3-4 defense needs TWO studs at ILB and we have one... and two awful outside linebackers... since we lost Pace who was solid. why couldn't this team have both Dansby AND Washington? you know pittsburg... that team we're modeled after? they have more than 1 good LBer out of their 4. The idea that Washington will make people forget Dansby makes no sense when the other LBer in the middle is either Paris Lennon or that bigger waste of space Bradley.

So what do you suggest we should have done to keep Dansby? Do you think he left because of money? BTW, I have no problem with Paris Lenon. He is consistant and dependable.

and if you want to say "we can't sign everyone Cheese!" well... we sat on 30 million dollars last year and still have 9 million bucks in cap space right now that we could have used to actually make the roster competitive so that doesn't really fly... especially since Washington and Campbell are both still on rookie deals and if we have Dansby and Pace, we wouldn't have spent a stupid amount of money on that waste of space Bradley.

As I said, there was no way we were keeping Dansby and Pace wasn't worth anywhere near the amount of money he got, so what you are suggesting isn't possible. Who would you have gotten in place of Bradley?

Doucet is having a "much better" year than Breaston? He's got 210 yards to Breaston's 180 and Breaston has come on in the last two games whereas Doucet had one big play in Game 1 of the season... and has done little else since then.

What you are saying is we paid less money on Doucet than we did on Breaston for equal performance. Sounds like we got a good deal.

And again, with 9 million in available cap space, why is this Doucet's better than Breaston? Wouldn't it be nice to have Breaston in there instead of Roberts who's a complete waste of space?

No, I would much rather have Heap and King. Those two along with Fitz, Beanie, Sherman and Doucet give Kolb all the targets he needs.



So, a defense of Campbell, Williams, Dockett, Pace, Dansby, Washington, Haggans isn't a stronger front four than Campell, Williams, Dockett, Porter, Lennon/Bradley, Washington, Haggans? Come on... you don't honestly believe that, do you?

Cheese, are you smoking whacky again? There is no way we could have gotten all those players. If we had kept Dansby and Pace, do you really think we would have drafted the same way we did?

A LBing core of Pace, Dansby, Washington and Ouchie would be positively nasty. It would be Pittsburg-esque, but neither Dansby nor Pace ever got contract extensions when it was apparent they were gonna be good. We sat on our hands and let them hit FA... something the Steelers never do.

Cheese, we put the tag on Dansby, TWICE because he wouldn't sign a contract extension. How do you propose they could have kept him? I do have to admit that if I had to chose between Pace and Ouchie, I'd take Ouchie.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Dansby wouldn't be able to play Lenon's spot at TED LB. You would essentially be paying 10mill a year for a LB playing a role where his weaknesses are exposed and unable to use his biggest strength of range. I am personally glad we got Washington because he will be here for a long time and is playing like one of the best LBs in the NFL this season with the potential for more because his range is so sick.

With that said, Rod Graves sucks and so does the entire scouting department. Get some guys who actually know how to build a team by making the offensive line and pass rush a priority. Not making one sided trades for crappy QBs would help too.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, we put the tag on Dansby, TWICE because he wouldn't sign a contract extension. How do you propose they could have kept him?

WRONG. we didn't offer him an extension on his rookie contract after he had earned it and let him become a FA where we tagged him because he had to "show us" he deserved a long term deal. He should have been wrapped up before he hit FA, like any player who was as good as him who's in the last year of their rookie deal. And you can call that "hindsight" but I was SCREAMING for him to get a deal before then... but we decided that DD and Gerald Freaking Hayes somehow deserved extensions more than he did even though it was blatantly obvious he was more of an impact player... in other words, would COST MORE. So we dicked him around for TWO YEARS before they ever talked extension and during that time, they had the mouthpiece of the team, Ron Wolfley slam his ass on radio and even here as idiot extraoradinare Hardy Brown.

By the time they finally got their head out of their asses and started offering him deals, they'd basically pushed his ass out the door.

I do have to admit that if I had to chose between Pace and Ouchie, I'd take Ouchie.

that's funny... but not true and there's no way you'd take the rotting corpses of Porter/Haggans over Pace.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As I said, there was no way we were keeping Dansby and Pace wasn't worth anywhere near the amount of money he got, so what you are suggesting isn't possible.

you say this... but again... why not? Again, this team has been hording cap space for two years. it absolutely could afford both of these guys. and if this team had a brain in it's head, neither guy should have even hit FA. First round/second round difference makers in the final year of their rookie deals should get extensions. That's what the Steelers do and why their D was so successful for a decade.

[
Who would you have gotten in place of Bradley?

40, your just killing me. did you read anything i wrote? I said I would have gone after Tulloch or Paul Polusnki (or whatever the hell his name is) over the complete and utter piece of trash that Bradley is (and was when i said so when we signed him).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pace started out as a DE and was moved to LB. Pace had one good year with us and average years since then.

what does it matter that he started as a DE. He was playing out of position and then when put in the right position, he became a difference maker... and Campbell was drafted AFTER Pace was gone, so that doesn't matter either.

And he had one good year with us and then was average after?

His last year with us, he had 6.5 sacks... the next three years? 7.0, 8.0, 6 sacks... and yeah he got nailed for juice in his second year, but he came back last year with 6 sacks in the regular season and 3 sacks in the playoffs. The guy is a prototypical OLB 3-4 linebacker.

 

[conraddobler]

I can't believe someone still has Graves back, oh were it that easy in all walks of life.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can't believe someone still has Graves back, oh were it that easy in all walks of life.

the funniest thing is the person who has Graves' back continues to say "we need players who have more intensity, better stamina to make plays late in games, are better leaders and coaches who can do the same!" as if finding those people isn't EXACTLY what Graves' job is!

 

[Krangodnzr]

40,

How many Pro Bowlers has Graves drafted?

How many good Left Tackles has Graves drafted?

How many good Outside Linebackers/Pass rushers has Graves drafted?

How many good Quarterbacks has Graves drafted?

These three positions are the most important in all of football. If you are good on the offensive line (and specifically LT), Quarterback, and have passrushers, you'll generally win in the NFL. Rod Graves has FAILED to address these positions for about a decade. That's incompetence.

I argued back and forth with Kerouac about this earlier in the year, and I continue to maintain that the other than cheap Bill, the continuing losing presence on the team is Rod Graves. We will not move on from our loser ways until we part with him and rebuild the scouting staff into a 21st century model. We have historically had one of the smallest scouting staffs in the league; why can't we change this trend? Why can't we go outside of the organization and higher the next scouting hotshot? Why not at least give Steve Keim a chance?

Rod Graves proceeded over a disaster in Chicago before he came here and other than hitting on a few midround picks here and there, he's been a complete disaster. His track record on 1st round picks is abysmal. And third round picks as well...

 

[Stout]

Guys, give it up. 40 has Graves's back, and there is no power in the 'verse that will change that. It is glaringly obvious that Graves is no NFL GM, but you won't change his mind. You can sooner mine for cheese on the moon than get 40 to admit that Graves isn't a good GM.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

WRONG. we didn't offer him an extension on his rookie contract after he had earned it and let him become a FA where we tagged him because he had to "show us" he deserved a long term deal. He should have been wrapped up before he hit FA, like any player who was as good as him who's in the last year of their rookie deal. And you can call that "hindsight" but I was SCREAMING for him to get a deal before then... but we decided that DD and Gerald Freaking Hayes somehow deserved extensions more than he did even though it was blatantly obvious he was more of an impact player... in other words, would COST MORE. So we dicked him around for TWO YEARS before they ever talked extension and during that time, they had the mouthpiece of the team, Ron Wolfley slam his ass on radio and even here as idiot extraoradinare Hardy Brown.

By the time they finally got their head out of their asses and started offering him deals, they'd basically pushed his ass out the door.



that's funny... but not true and there's no way you'd take the rotting corpses of Porter/Haggans over Pace.

Let's not forget that Dansby was viewed by many on this board as a malingerer in his first few years, and I don't recall anyone calling for an early extension.

And, lest we forget, Dansby made it clear that he wanted more than Pace the day he signed with the Jets and never wavered. Many on this board agreed with Joeshmo that an ILB should not receive as much $$$ as an OLB.

Dansby was "dicked around" to the tune of two franchise tags that made him a very, very rich man.

It was rather universal on this board that the Jets had overpayed for Pace, and in fact - he re-negotiated his deal downward after year two.