A look at our roster using Profootball Focus

Krangodnzr

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QB-
Overall Kevin Kolb had a -7.1 rating. His best game was a 3.0 against the Cowboys, with 3 positive performances overall (CAR, WAS, DAL) and six negative performances. John Skelton fared far worse according to their ratings; Skelton had an overall -26.9 rating with no positive rated performances. His worst performance was was a -8.8 against the SF Niners away, and his best performance was against CLV with a -0.1. Clearly the guys at Profootball Focus aren't enamored with either QB, but they evaluated Kolb as the better of the two QBs.

RB-
Overall our top ranked RB was LSH. He carried a 4.5 rating, with his best performance a 2.1 against Dal. He generally performed well with 5 negatively rated games. Beanie Wells didn't perform as well; He carried a -3.9 rating overall, largely due to his lack of performance in the passing game. He carried a negative grade as a pass catcher (-5.5) and pass blocker (-0.2). As a runner he was alright (3.6), but they believe that he clearly could be easily replaced. Interestingly enough, Alfonso Smith carried a positive grade (0.6) largely due to his good pass blocking skills (1.5). Additionally their observations on Sherman confirm what we thought (2.3), Sherman is a keeper despite limited opportunities.

WR/TE-
Larry Fitzgerald and Todd Heap were the only offensive weapons to receive positive grades; Fitz received a 23.2 rating and Heap received a 5.7, largely due to his run blocking (5.4). I argued this point with other posters that I thought Heap was a much better run blocker than King and Profootball Focus clearly agreed with this point. Ironically King fared well as a pass catcher (5.4) versus the more regarded Heap (0.7). King was awful as both a run blocker and pass blocker (-4.3 and -3.3). My observations is that King can be overpowered when engaged by bigger defensive line and easily outquicked by ends and linebackers. Maybe the talk of cutting Heap are shortsighted? Roberts (-11.4), Doucet (-8.4), Sampson (-1.3), Stuckey (-3.1), Housler (-2.7), and Dray (-5.5) were a pitiful bunch.

OL-
The offensive line graded out as one would expect, the only starting offensive lineman to receive a positive grade was Lyle Sendlein (3.6). Brown (-17.6), Colledge (-3.8), Hadnot (-5.9), Keith/Bridges (-8.1/-7.7) all were rated poorly, which was to be expected. But Profootball Focus noticed what many Cardinals fans did, that the offensive line played much better over the second half of the season. From week 11 on, Levi Brown consistently posted positive ratings (except a -0.7 CIN game), with an exceptional 5.1 game against CLV. Colledge didn't improve as much, but he did have a 6.7 mauling of SL. Hadnot was the exception of the offensive line playing better. Hadnot posted five consecutive positive performance to start the year then only three more the rest of the way. Bridges posted only one negative performance after week 11 as well. What does this mean? I truly believe the offensive line started to gel a little after week 11, but John Skelton's ability to stand in the pocket factors in this as well. One interesting note is that 3/5 O lineman graded positively on run blocking (Brown, Colledge, and Sendlein). While we expect improvement on the offensive line this year, let's not forget the newcomer, Adam Snyder. He was the third worst guard in football, posting a -26.5 rating. Truly one of the single worst starting linemen in the league last year.

DL-
Calais Campbell had a magnificent year (34.1), but so did the entire defensive line. Dockett (11.7), Williams (1.8), Carter (2.0), and Holliday (6.1) all rated positively. Eason fared poorly (-13.7!); whether lined up at end or NT it didn't matter. Eason only had 1 sack, 1 QB Hit and 2 QB pressures on 257 snaps! For those calling Campbell's deal overpriced, he logged 47 "stops", which are tackles/sacks that constitute an offensive failure and 9 batted passes. That's seven more stops than second ranked JJ Watt (40) and 17 more than Justin Smith. Campbell is quickly becoming the best 3-4 end in football, and even if he maintains last years performance, the deal will be more than worth it. Calais Campbell is an elite defensive player, and it's ridiculous that he hasn't gotten recognized yet.

LB-
Daryl Washington leads this group and was the only one who received a positive rating (17.6). Already, Washington is among the elite playmakers at LB, but he must improve dramatically as a run defender since he led the ball club with 12 missed tackles. I expect Washington to improve here and become the best ILB in the game outside of Bowman/Willis, but he'll likely be better if he approaches their ability as run defenders. He's already a top ten ILB. The Cardinals other LBs didn't fare as well; Acho (-6.2), Schofield (-3.7), Haggans (-6.7), Lenon (-15.8!!), and Bradley (-3.9). Acho MUST improve as a run defender; he rated miserably (-6.2). The Cardinals could really take a leap forward if this group improves; Schofield and Acho must take gigantic leaps in their 3rd and 2nd years respectably.

CB-
I know this part will get flamed, but I agree with their ratings. Our worst cornerback last year was Patrick Peterson. By a large margin too; Peterson rated awfully (-12.6). The first 11 games, Peterson posted two positively rated games (SEA 1.6 and NYG 0.1). But he did post 4/5 positive ratings in the last five games, with an impressive performance against SF (he was torched for a -6.6 rating in the first match up). None of our corners graded well overall with Marshall (-1.2), Jefferson (-3.1), and Adams (-3.3) all having a negative impact for the most part. Jefferson started out the season fairly well with 4/5 positive games, but then had two stinkers (BAL -4.1 and PIT -4.0). After those two disasters, Jefferson only posted 3 positive games the rest of the way. Now on to our addition; some have stated that opposing teams will often state that players are garbage just because they are leaving, and according to Profootball Focus this is the case with William Gay. Gay didn't rate well (0.0), but he performed better than all the rest of our CBs. QBs had a 67.2 QB rating throwing into his area, which is pretty good even considering the Steelers superior pass rush. While I know many on this board say that the addition of Jameel Fleming is likely a threat to Jefferson's roster spot, I would add that the team was clearly enamored with his special teams ability. That's a clear threat to Money Mike, who's only real strength is special teams. Adams has withstood challenges to his roster spot every one of past 3-4 years, but I don't think he makes it out of training camp this year.

S-
Adrian Wilson had one of his finer seasons in a remarkable career. Wilson was Profootball Focus' second ranked safety (16.1) behind Troy Polamalu. The problem with S is that the Cardinals desperately need some young prospects to step up. Rhodes posted a ho-hum 0.5 rating and Rashad Johnson posted a -2.4 rating (largely due to his poor run support). Johnson also posted a goose egg as a playmaker with only one batted passes, zero interceptions, zero pressures/sacks, and zero forced fumbles/recoveries. Johnson must improve here, but there isn't any real threat to remove him from the roster (James Sanders -7.3).
 

Duckjake

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his (Skelton) best performance was against CLV with a -0.1

Cleveland?

What rating factors are these guys using? Did they not notice that Skelton had a 106.5 QB rating in the second game vs SF vs a 79.3 vs the Browns?

Did they forget to include it maybe because Kolb started the game?

Weird.
 

desertdawg

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PP got used, abused, and whipped like the family pig last year, right before mid-season Horton started putting him up against the NFL's best. Got worked all over (best way to bring him in too) and then started getting better and better, focusing on his assignments and learning from the burning. PP is going to kill it this year. :)
 

kerouac9

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Why bother with Pro Football Focus's ratings? They're idiotic. They use "metrics" to verify their own biases and observations. That's not statistical analysis, because there are no statistics, and there's no analysis.

After waving Rex Hadnot's PFF ratings in our faces for two years before actually seeing him play (and then get released immediately afterward), I'd think you'd reconsider passing this around again.
 

Darkside

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PP got used, abused, and whipped like the family pig last year, right before mid-season Horton started putting him up against the NFL's best. Got worked all over (best way to bring him in too) and then started getting better and better, focusing on his assignments and learning from the burning. PP is going to kill it this year. :)

PP is going to be a beast. He did get killed earlier in the year, but against Dallas he played really well against Dez Bryant, who is a big guy with great hands. He pretty much shut him down the 2nd half of that game. He also played well the rest of the year. It's great to hear him say he will focus on being a great CB rather than a great returner. I have high hopes for this dude.
 

Duckjake

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PP is going to be a beast. He did get killed earlier in the year, but against Dallas he played really well against Dez Bryant, who is a big guy with great hands. He pretty much shut him down the 2nd half of that game. He also played well the rest of the year. It's great to hear him say he will focus on being a great CB rather than a great returner. I have high hopes for this dude.

All our pass defenders played well the second half of the season. The Cards held opponents to under 200 yards passing 5 times in the last 8 games. That's fairly good considering the bias toward the passing game in the NFL these days and they did it with an inconsistent pass rush and not getting gouged for 155 rushing yards a game like they did in 2010 when opponents were under 200 yards 7 of the last 8. Although we were still getting pounded by the run last season as well we did have that 3 game stretch where we held opponents under 100 yards rushing.
 
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Darkside

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All our pass defenders played well the second half of the season. The Cards held opponents to under 200 yards passing 5 times in the last 8 games. That's fairly good considering the bias toward the passing game in the NFL these days and they did it with an inconsistent pass rush and not getting gouged for 155 rushing yards a game like they did in 2010 when opponents were under 200 yards 7 of the last 8. Although we were still getting pounded by the run last season as well we did have that 3 game stretch where we held opponents under 100 yards rushing.

Can you imagine if we keep it up and improve from last year? I know everyone worries about depth, but man! I'm very excited about next year. Excited to see how our QB's play, but even more excited to see how our D plays. It's hard to imagine a D in today's NFL can dominate or make an impact, but I would so love it.
 
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Krangodnzr

Krangodnzr

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Cleveland?

What rating factors are these guys using? Did they not notice that Skelton had a 106.5 QB rating in the second game vs SF vs a 79.3 vs the Browns?

Did they forget to include it maybe because Kolb started the game?

Weird.

They observe every play and rate how the player performed on the play. Maybe John Skelton checked down on numerous plays with wide open Fitzgerald down the sideline.

Two dumb interceptions and a lot of short series will also get a poor rating. This was a game that the defense and 73 yards of YAC by Fitzgerald won.
 
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Krangodnzr

Krangodnzr

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After waving Rex Hadnot's PFF ratings in our faces for two years before actually seeing him play (and then get released immediately afterward), I'd think you'd reconsider passing this around again.

Or maybe Hadnot played well before coming here? Ever think of that? But no that wouldn't fit with your bias against Profootball Focus.
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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What is the PFF scale/rating system based on? Is there a maximum number like QBR or passer rating? Some of their analysis seems pretty accurate, but the whole rating system doesn't make much sense IMO.
 
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Krangodnzr

Krangodnzr

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What is the PFF scale/rating system based on? Is there a maximum number like QBR or passer rating? Some of their analysis seems pretty accurate, but the whole rating system doesn't make much sense IMO.

They give points for "good" plays and take points for "bad" plays. There is definitely room for subjectivity, but I think they're usually right when they say a player stinks or is overrated.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/
 

Duckjake

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They observe every play and rate how the player performed on the play. Maybe John Skelton checked down on numerous plays with wide open Fitzgerald down the sideline.

Two dumb interceptions and a lot of short series will also get a poor rating. This was a game that the defense and 73 yards of YAC by Fitzgerald won.

Yeah Skelton's 3 TD passses to offset the INTs and a 68% completion rate with completions to 7 different receivers with Beanie Wells averaging 1.8 yards per carry was just blind luck.

And of course there were all those short fields and points the defense gave him, exactly none. I sure hope Skelton is that dumb every game he plays in the future for Arizona.
 
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kerouac9

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Or maybe Hadnot played well before coming here? Ever think of that? But no that wouldn't fit with your bias against Profootball Focus.

That's right, Krang. Rex Hadnot was one of the best offensive linemen in the NFL--as PFF suggested--until he came here. And then he became terrible. So bad, in fact, that he couldn't take Deuce Lutui's job in 2011, even though the coaches desperately wanted to replace him.

It's definitely my bias against PFF at play here, not a handful of game charters' biases at play.

If Beanie is replaceable and four of our five offensive linemen are below-average, how did #26 manage 4.4 YPC last year? Don't you think there's a problem with an analysis that puts LSH as the top running back on the team?
 

Duckjake

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That's right, Krang. Rex Hadnot was one of the best offensive linemen in the NFL--as PFF suggested--until he came here. And then he became terrible. So bad, in fact, that he couldn't take Deuce Lutui's job in 2011, even though the coaches desperately wanted to replace him.

It's definitely my bias against PFF at play here, not a handful of game charters' biases at play.

If Beanie is replaceable and four of our five offensive linemen are below-average, how did #26 manage 4.4 YPC last year? Don't you think there's a problem with an analysis that puts LSH as the top running back on the team?

This is a good take:

I don’t know what they (PFF) have access to, but if they don’t have coaches film they can’t accurately break down the play of anyone, except the offensive and defensive lineman. Those are the only players you can see whether they do their job on every snap. i always assumed that they did have coaches film, because otherwise they would be a total joke to put out rankings.

Even with coaches film, it’s pretty hard to be 100% accurate on knowing who did their job or not. For example, you see a blown coverage and it will look like a cb got smoked. then the announcers will point out that it appears like the db was expecting safety help. well was the safety supposed to help or not? Unless you know the play call, you don’t know if the safety did his job or if the cb needed help. this is only 1 variable, and there are so many others which can make scouting very difficult to create into a science.
 

az1965

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LOL... Based on what is posted, PFF is a joke. I did not even bother to read after reading LSH is the top RB on the team... LOL!!
 
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Krangodnzr

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If Beanie is replaceable and four of our five offensive linemen are below-average, how did #26 manage 4.4 YPC last year? Don't you think there's a problem with an analysis that puts LSH as the top running back on the team?

Easy, they all rated as pretty good run blockers, but that is only one aspect of playing offensive line.

Top rated at what he did/does. That doesn't mean he would be if he got 20 carries a game. But that answer is obvious; I mean I could just rate players based on Madden stats like someone on this board used to do.
 
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Krangodnzr

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That's right, Krang. Rex Hadnot was one of the best offensive linemen in the NFL--as PFF suggested--until he came here. And then he became terrible. So bad, in fact, that he couldn't take Deuce Lutui's job in 2011, even though the coaches desperately wanted to replace him.

Hmmm last I checked Hadnot DID take Lutui's job.

If I used your logic, average players could never have great seasons. Oh that never happens!
 

Darkside

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I don't find it worthless. It's a subjective and flawed grading system, to be sure, but all sites are. They are generalized grades. There's much more to be found on this site than most I visit, stats you can't really find anywhere else.

Beanie's technically a grinder, which is hard to grade, but where else can you find an actual grade for him in the passing game, regarding picking up blocks or leaking to the flats to catch passes? They grade him on that VS others doing the same thing. That's the only way to tell if he's decent at it, by comparison. Unless you watch every game and every running back you'll never know how he is in comparison. It's obvious to most that he isn't a threat catching the ball, but I thought he had improved picking up his assignments and blocks in the passing game. Not when compared to other dudes like Ray Rice, AP, etc. Simply because he's improved to our eye doesn't make him good. Merely means he improved from horrible to bad.

I personally think they have LSH so high because when he was in there he produced really well. He wasn't in often enough in my opinion. They should have a weighted system though that takes into account what percentage of plays a player was used in comparison to other dudes on our team. That would lower LSH's rating considerably.
 

kerouac9

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Easy, they all rated as pretty good run blockers, but that is only one aspect of playing offensive line.

Top rated at what he did/does. That doesn't mean he would be if he got 20 carries a game. But that answer is obvious; I mean I could just rate players based on Madden stats like someone on this board used to do.

My argument is that PFF is essentially the same thing as the Madden analysis. PFF puts a patina of statistical analysis on theirs (which is false--and obviously you're engaging in a lot of confirmation bias here when it comes to your agreement on Beanie/Kolb/Peterson/R. Johnson/Jefferson), while Madden puts on the patina of consulting with NFL players and coaches in grading their players.

Of course, I was using Madden ratings as a comparison 10 years ago. There's not much sting in that compared to you using (and paying for!) these preposterous ratings in 2012.
 

Duckjake

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So in other words their analysis is pretty much worthless. Kinda proves K9's point.

What we need is a thread looking at our roster using THESMEL's ratings.

Now that would be fun.
 

Darkside

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I like Thesmel. Other than his ratings of Leinart, Levi, and Beanie. Leinart is done, so that can't be substantiated, but Levi still has a lot of years left to prove Smel right (I'm biased in that I'm a fan of Levi's; he's a total professional in every sense). Beanie will never be Jim Brown the way Smel thinks, but he did well last year and hopefully will improve enough to warrant the love Smel gives him.

I don't know why we gotta beat on this dude. In another thread we were talking about originality in posts because some of ya'll have thousands upon thousands of posts saying basically the same things. Thesmel is at least original. He repeats himself regarding his favorite players, granted, but he's always original.

I'll take loyalty any day over trolls or someone wanting a player to fail or our team to fail or someone, like me, saying the same crap day in and day out, in a different way. Thesmel loves him some Cardinals, I don't know why we gotta hate on that.
 
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Krangodnzr

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So in other words their analysis is pretty much worthless. Kinda proves K9's point.

Not at all. Whether it's confirmation bias or not, I agree with most of their ratings.

And when looking at players from teams I never watch, it's a useful tool to see some rating system based on some observations. Not perfect, but there isn't anything else out there that is even close.
 

kerouac9

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Not at all. Whether it's confirmation bias or not, I agree with most of their ratings.

And when looking at players from teams I never watch, it's a useful tool to see some rating system based on some observations. Not perfect, but there isn't anything else out there that is even close.

Invest in the Football Outsiders' Annual when it comes out in July. It's the absolute best tool out there for actual statistical analysis. They admit it's impossible to break out OL play from the film that they have (something that PFF doesn't do), and they only work from game charting data. But they're a great read and while I don't always agree with their analysis, they tend to be right quite a bit.

I thought they were STUPID last year picking San Francisco to win the division, but here we are a year later.
 
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