OP
OP
"Rally around"? No. Provide balance to the unfettered hatred of a guy who is gobs better than what we have under center? Yes.
A. Schefter: Skelton the Favorite to Win Job
- Thread starter Pariah
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That is certainly debatable.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I don't think that is true at all. Kolb played the second half(?) of the Baltimore game on that turf toe injury. If anything, I think Kolb doesn't like the idea of playing hurt, and so he's not going to go back onto the field if he isn't 100%. I think there's a difference between slow healers (like Beanie and Kolb) and fragile guys.
I think that Whis might have figured out too late that Kolb isn't particularly mentally tough when it comes to playing through pain. The only other read from the turf toe nonsense last season was that Whis was just trying to mess with opposition game plans. That's a perfectly good theory.
Anyway, Skelton's proven to be durable. If he goes down, and Skelton goes down, I'm not confident that having Lindley in the game gives us a better chance to win than going Wildcat for a quarter with Early Doucet (who I think is the emergency 3rd quarterback). No reason to keep an extra guy active on game day over someone who can contribute to a win than reducing the margin of defeat.
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I thought you didn't have to? I thought the rule was you can play the 3rd QB but it means you can't put either of the first 2 Qb's back in if they heal up during the game?
Or am I remembering it wrong?
I believe that the NFL changed that rule this off-season.
:Edit: It was changed during the 2011 off-season and the game roster went up to 46.
Link
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kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
It used to be, but I think that changed last year. 46 total players on the game-day roster.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...arterback-rule-46-active-players-on-game-day/
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thanks guys I should pay more attention to the new rules changes every offseason.
SoCal Cardfan
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Matty is clearly a better sling model.
AND.. he probably drew a dozen or so female fans to the stadium.
Lastly... Isn't SMEL doing a good enough job as Lienart defender for you?
OP
OP
I guess I shouldn't express an opinion that runs counter to ASFN group-think.
What a pretty boy! How is he still in the NFL??? Isn't there a hot tub party somewhere? He should be throwing back PBRs instead of throwing footballs! ...better?
CardsFan88
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I understand things can get heated regarding our QB play, so this isn't about rubbing anyone any way. The issue about Leinart and groupthink here on ASFN just doesn't fly on its merits. Everyone can have an opinion, it's what America is supposed to be about. But because it's Leinart, let's analyze it, and analyze it, ONLY because it's Leinart, and only in regards to Leinart.
Groupthink is when people stop/suspend/never start thinking and rally around a certain viewpoint without thinking alternatives through. They don't consider how any alternatives would impact the situation versus say the first idea to come out of someone's mouth, or the first sort of good sounding idea, and thus for whatever reason (maybe intellectual sloth or laziness) come to a consensus or thereabouts just for the sake of making a decision.
Sometimes it revolves around a person with influence or positional power, and no one objects or offers alternatives because of that. Either way it's about abdicating the responsibility to figuring out the best path forward by not turning over every stone.
Here on ASFN, we've talked about Leinart since at least 2006, probably a year or two earlier somewhat. Nothing about him has changed. If anything, everything has been shown to be true again with his usual performance in the Raiders vs Cowboys 3-0 stinker. There has probably been a hundred threads involving Leinart at least throughout his years here and after discussing what sort of QB he is. I can confidently say as an ASFN'er I don't believe there is a group think about Leinart. Perhaps some people never thought it through, but I feel confident that enough people did. Including me.
In the present he was 11-16 mostly checkdown throws (only one was a short-medium slant going forward and the only one actually down field was thrown incomplete near the end of a half). Overall his performance netted 0 points fwiw. He also fumbled, but it was recovered.
What we continued to see.
He's still captain checkdown.
He still throws far more passes with people running back towards him instead of them running down field. So there's short passes of 10 yards where the guy has a chance to go up field, and then there's 10 yard passes where the guy has little to no chance of gaining any more yards because he's running back to the QB when he's catching it. Those and similar were Leinart's passes almost exclusively. It's what we've seen for years. He takes the checkdown.
He still has a tendency to put arc on the ball, though maybe better than previous years in how he uses it. But there was one short pass that seemed to be in the air forever and had that typical moon shot orbit we've seen from him. Luckily no one was around to make him pay for it.
Still has a mediocre arm at best.
Although he isn't injured currently, there is little doubt he's coming due pretty soon. This is speculation. But it's what has been shown. I wouldn't bet against this clearly set trend of his. So when comparing Leinart to Skelton toughness wise it isn't even close. Especially behind this line.
Had he thrown the ball down field consistently for a year, and went through a season without getting injured, and then people didn't account for this, where it would have to be almost everybody doing all of the above after Leinart did all of the above, THEN on this topic it would be possible a groupthink situation could come into play.
I would call Leinart, group resolved. We've figured him out, and unless he produces on the field to warrant a change of the injury prone, check down, backup QB label, then it cannot in any way be groupthink. He still hasn't even given one game, not even that Houston game last year to make people think otherwise. He did a bit better in the Houston game with a couple of throws down field, but still for the majority was Captain Checkdown and got injured.
As is, his first preseason game, and his game with Houston where he got injured last year have only further cemented what he is as being spot on with what ASFN people thought in a very non-group think way, and determined what he was over the course of a hundred or more threads.
The term group think and Leinart doesn't apply. If something were to change about Leinart, a possibility would then maybe open. But, nothing about Leinart has changed.
If any Cardinals QB reminds me of Leinart, it's Kolb. Not in every sense of course. But in the way he can't play, tends to throw underneath (though does at least attempt down field passes occasionally when for HIM he has time...Leinart doesn't seem to want to thrown down field even if he has it), and gets injured far too often, many times because like Leinart, he doesn't know how to fall correctly. Heck even the demeanor seems pretty similar.
Also here is the play by play for Leinart the first game (on passes/fumbles)
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=320813013
Drive 1
M.Leinart FUMBLES (Aborted) at OAK 46, and recovers at OAK 43.
M.Leinart to OAK 43 for no gain (M.Spears).
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short left to J.Criner to OAK 48 for 5 yards (B.Church).
Drive 2
M.Leinart pass deep middle to R.Streater to DAL 46 for 18 yards (T.Williams)
M.Leinart pass short left to O.Schmitt to DAL 38 for 8 yards (M.Butler). PENALTY on OAK-R.Gordon, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 38.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short right to R.Streater to DAL 34 for 13 yards (T.Williams; M.Silva).
M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to J.Criner.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to B.Carswell [K.Wilber].
This was the drive they blocked the field goal of shank-a-kowski.
Drive 3
M.Leinart pass short right to R.Streater to OAK 25 for 9 yards (T.Williams).
M.Leinart pass short left to R.Streater to OAK 34 for 9 yards (M.Butler; M.Silva).
M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to T.Humphrey.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short middle to L.Miller to OAK 47 for 9 yards (O.Lemon; A.Albright).
Drive 4 (last couple minutes of the half)
M.Leinart pass short middle to R.Streater to OAK 27 for 5 yards (A.Albright).
M.Leinart pass short left to B.Carswell to OAK 30 for 3 yards (C.Wilson).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short left to L.Miller to OAK 37 for 7 yards (D.McCray).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short middle to R.Streater to OAK 49 for 12 yards (M.Silva).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep left to R.Streater.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short middle to D.Ausberry.
I see the same stuff as we're used to? I notice how many short passes out of the shotgun he did. The only time he went long was basically at the end of the first half and had to go for it. Only one of his passes wasn't a comebacker that was completed. Even then it was only medium length. A good decent throw.
Matt Leinart is who we thought he was, and continues to showcase exactly that.
Personally I don't see how that's better than Skelton. Lindley did better than Leinart at the end of the 1st half playing against the same roughly level of competition. But Lindley got points on the board, and Leinart didn't.
One thing about group think is that you can form consensus with groupthink, or you can have consensus without groupthink. I think we've formed a virtual consensus about Leinart legitimately about what he is. Just because people agree doesn't mean groupthink has set in. It's all about how the process getting there was. For Leinart, it was anything but groupthink.
For fun this is what Lindley did.
Drive 1 in the two minute drill
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short right to T.Heap to ARZ 45 for 6 yards (D.Washington).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short left to L.Byrd to KC 49 for 6 yards (D.Menzie).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass deep right to L.Byrd to KC 28 for 21 yards (A.Elam).
1st and 10 at KC 28 (Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short left to L.Byrd to KC 22 for 6 yards (D.Ellis).
Timeout #2 by KC at 00:07.
Drive 2 (powell td drive)
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to S.Skelton (A.Studebaker).
R.Lindley pass short right to J.Dray to KC 7 for 6 yards (J.Reeves).
R.Lindley scrambles right end to KC 2 for 3 yards (J.Fanor).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short right to M.Floyd to KC 2 for 3 yards (J.Reeves).
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to M.Floyd.
Drive 3
R.Lindley pass incomplete deep right to J.Johnson.
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to J.Johnson.
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass incomplete short left to I.Williams.
Lindley was constrained by being in a short field and two minute drill in 2 of his 3 drives. Yet this rookie threw deep more than Leinart given these bigger number of constraints and five fewer passes. Leinart was looking at long open fields all of his possessions. Yet he consistently checked down and picked comebackers for his more downfield passes.
Lindley's offense scores 10 points with him under center.
Leinart's offense score 0 points with him under center.
I really don't know why Leinart is even being brought up based on these reasons as a legitimate wish compared to what we have. 11/16 doesn't mean anything. I'll take 6/11 and 10 points with a guy who throws deep and is a rookie with upside over a veteran who still checks down almost every throw and goes 11/16 and scores 0 points against comparable depth chart talent. Also Lindley did it with our OL.
I think Skelton and it appears Lindley are better talents than Leinart. Above all this, what would Leinart do behind our line? Get injured again, and until then check down even more no doubt in my mind.
I guess it's something about Leinart that just gets us all up in a tizzy. Too much hope lost I guess.
Groupthink is when people stop/suspend/never start thinking and rally around a certain viewpoint without thinking alternatives through. They don't consider how any alternatives would impact the situation versus say the first idea to come out of someone's mouth, or the first sort of good sounding idea, and thus for whatever reason (maybe intellectual sloth or laziness) come to a consensus or thereabouts just for the sake of making a decision.
Sometimes it revolves around a person with influence or positional power, and no one objects or offers alternatives because of that. Either way it's about abdicating the responsibility to figuring out the best path forward by not turning over every stone.
Here on ASFN, we've talked about Leinart since at least 2006, probably a year or two earlier somewhat. Nothing about him has changed. If anything, everything has been shown to be true again with his usual performance in the Raiders vs Cowboys 3-0 stinker. There has probably been a hundred threads involving Leinart at least throughout his years here and after discussing what sort of QB he is. I can confidently say as an ASFN'er I don't believe there is a group think about Leinart. Perhaps some people never thought it through, but I feel confident that enough people did. Including me.
In the present he was 11-16 mostly checkdown throws (only one was a short-medium slant going forward and the only one actually down field was thrown incomplete near the end of a half). Overall his performance netted 0 points fwiw. He also fumbled, but it was recovered.
What we continued to see.
He's still captain checkdown.
He still throws far more passes with people running back towards him instead of them running down field. So there's short passes of 10 yards where the guy has a chance to go up field, and then there's 10 yard passes where the guy has little to no chance of gaining any more yards because he's running back to the QB when he's catching it. Those and similar were Leinart's passes almost exclusively. It's what we've seen for years. He takes the checkdown.
He still has a tendency to put arc on the ball, though maybe better than previous years in how he uses it. But there was one short pass that seemed to be in the air forever and had that typical moon shot orbit we've seen from him. Luckily no one was around to make him pay for it.
Still has a mediocre arm at best.
Although he isn't injured currently, there is little doubt he's coming due pretty soon. This is speculation. But it's what has been shown. I wouldn't bet against this clearly set trend of his. So when comparing Leinart to Skelton toughness wise it isn't even close. Especially behind this line.
Had he thrown the ball down field consistently for a year, and went through a season without getting injured, and then people didn't account for this, where it would have to be almost everybody doing all of the above after Leinart did all of the above, THEN on this topic it would be possible a groupthink situation could come into play.
I would call Leinart, group resolved. We've figured him out, and unless he produces on the field to warrant a change of the injury prone, check down, backup QB label, then it cannot in any way be groupthink. He still hasn't even given one game, not even that Houston game last year to make people think otherwise. He did a bit better in the Houston game with a couple of throws down field, but still for the majority was Captain Checkdown and got injured.
As is, his first preseason game, and his game with Houston where he got injured last year have only further cemented what he is as being spot on with what ASFN people thought in a very non-group think way, and determined what he was over the course of a hundred or more threads.
The term group think and Leinart doesn't apply. If something were to change about Leinart, a possibility would then maybe open. But, nothing about Leinart has changed.
If any Cardinals QB reminds me of Leinart, it's Kolb. Not in every sense of course. But in the way he can't play, tends to throw underneath (though does at least attempt down field passes occasionally when for HIM he has time...Leinart doesn't seem to want to thrown down field even if he has it), and gets injured far too often, many times because like Leinart, he doesn't know how to fall correctly. Heck even the demeanor seems pretty similar.
Also here is the play by play for Leinart the first game (on passes/fumbles)
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=320813013
Drive 1
M.Leinart FUMBLES (Aborted) at OAK 46, and recovers at OAK 43.
M.Leinart to OAK 43 for no gain (M.Spears).
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short left to J.Criner to OAK 48 for 5 yards (B.Church).
Drive 2
M.Leinart pass deep middle to R.Streater to DAL 46 for 18 yards (T.Williams)
M.Leinart pass short left to O.Schmitt to DAL 38 for 8 yards (M.Butler). PENALTY on OAK-R.Gordon, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 38.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short right to R.Streater to DAL 34 for 13 yards (T.Williams; M.Silva).
M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to J.Criner.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to B.Carswell [K.Wilber].
This was the drive they blocked the field goal of shank-a-kowski.
Drive 3
M.Leinart pass short right to R.Streater to OAK 25 for 9 yards (T.Williams).
M.Leinart pass short left to R.Streater to OAK 34 for 9 yards (M.Butler; M.Silva).
M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to T.Humphrey.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short middle to L.Miller to OAK 47 for 9 yards (O.Lemon; A.Albright).
Drive 4 (last couple minutes of the half)
M.Leinart pass short middle to R.Streater to OAK 27 for 5 yards (A.Albright).
M.Leinart pass short left to B.Carswell to OAK 30 for 3 yards (C.Wilson).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short left to L.Miller to OAK 37 for 7 yards (D.McCray).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short middle to R.Streater to OAK 49 for 12 yards (M.Silva).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep left to R.Streater.
(Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short middle to D.Ausberry.
I see the same stuff as we're used to? I notice how many short passes out of the shotgun he did. The only time he went long was basically at the end of the first half and had to go for it. Only one of his passes wasn't a comebacker that was completed. Even then it was only medium length. A good decent throw.
Matt Leinart is who we thought he was, and continues to showcase exactly that.
Personally I don't see how that's better than Skelton. Lindley did better than Leinart at the end of the 1st half playing against the same roughly level of competition. But Lindley got points on the board, and Leinart didn't.
One thing about group think is that you can form consensus with groupthink, or you can have consensus without groupthink. I think we've formed a virtual consensus about Leinart legitimately about what he is. Just because people agree doesn't mean groupthink has set in. It's all about how the process getting there was. For Leinart, it was anything but groupthink.
For fun this is what Lindley did.
Drive 1 in the two minute drill
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short right to T.Heap to ARZ 45 for 6 yards (D.Washington).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short left to L.Byrd to KC 49 for 6 yards (D.Menzie).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass deep right to L.Byrd to KC 28 for 21 yards (A.Elam).
1st and 10 at KC 28 (Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short left to L.Byrd to KC 22 for 6 yards (D.Ellis).
Timeout #2 by KC at 00:07.
Drive 2 (powell td drive)
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to S.Skelton (A.Studebaker).
R.Lindley pass short right to J.Dray to KC 7 for 6 yards (J.Reeves).
R.Lindley scrambles right end to KC 2 for 3 yards (J.Fanor).
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass short right to M.Floyd to KC 2 for 3 yards (J.Reeves).
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to M.Floyd.
Drive 3
R.Lindley pass incomplete deep right to J.Johnson.
R.Lindley pass incomplete short right to J.Johnson.
(Shotgun) R.Lindley pass incomplete short left to I.Williams.
Lindley was constrained by being in a short field and two minute drill in 2 of his 3 drives. Yet this rookie threw deep more than Leinart given these bigger number of constraints and five fewer passes. Leinart was looking at long open fields all of his possessions. Yet he consistently checked down and picked comebackers for his more downfield passes.
Lindley's offense scores 10 points with him under center.
Leinart's offense score 0 points with him under center.
I really don't know why Leinart is even being brought up based on these reasons as a legitimate wish compared to what we have. 11/16 doesn't mean anything. I'll take 6/11 and 10 points with a guy who throws deep and is a rookie with upside over a veteran who still checks down almost every throw and goes 11/16 and scores 0 points against comparable depth chart talent. Also Lindley did it with our OL.
I think Skelton and it appears Lindley are better talents than Leinart. Above all this, what would Leinart do behind our line? Get injured again, and until then check down even more no doubt in my mind.
I guess it's something about Leinart that just gets us all up in a tizzy. Too much hope lost I guess.
SoCal Cardfan
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This is the million dollar question.
(actually, the $700,000 question)
There has got to be literally dozens of UDFA QB's who could put up Lienarts stellar numbers.
az1965
Love Games!
What a terrible move. It was one thing to trade for him but then insult to injury was when we paid top dollars to him without any proven record.BLOK sucks big time eggs, dinosaur eggs. I have been in disbelief ever since they made the trade and gave him impact QB dollars. I have been in even more disbelief since they paid the bonus and let this mench (NOT THE GOOD MEANING OF MENCH EITHER) back on the team.
I wish they would've never done this.
az1965
Love Games!
Not unless he starts to play like a starter.
az1965
Love Games!
Are you kidding me??? What other "exclamation marks" has he shown so far??? There are question marks all over the place for him.
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az1965
Love Games!
Last year as well as pre-season this year
az1965
Love Games!
BTW, folks on Cardinals Underground also believe Skelton so far has outperformed Kolb in the pre-season and that Friday is pretty much do or die for Kolb.
Wolf also analyzed the two ints by both and mentioned there was difference in both. Kolb's was far more concerning than Skelton's as Skelton's was thrown while running and ball seemed to fluttered out of his hand. Kolb's on the other hand was a one, two, three, bad read.
Wolf also analyzed the two ints by both and mentioned there was difference in both. Kolb's was far more concerning than Skelton's as Skelton's was thrown while running and ball seemed to fluttered out of his hand. Kolb's on the other hand was a one, two, three, bad read.
Cbus cardsfan
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They had to lock him up once they traded for him and they pretty much paid the going rate for a middle of the road QB. Teams, until the new CBA, overpaid rookie QB's all the time with no proven track record. If the Cards had not extended Kolb's contract and he came in and lit it up, they would have been in bad shape too. He would either have to be tagged, re-signed to a much more expensive contract, or be allowed to leave via free agency. It turns out he was injured and never played very well. I'm sure if the Cards expected that type of performance, they would never had acquired him in the first place.
az1965
Love Games!
And that is exactly why that move was a head scratcher and a very risky one. It was done out of desperation hyped by media. He had average to below average performance with Eagles in whatever very limited body of work.
Cbus cardsfan
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I've said many times that I don't blame the Cards for making the move. It looks like it was a bad decision now but he also had some very good performances in his limited starts. Out of 8 starts, I think he was player of the week 2 or 3 times and had some nice games. Like you said, he also had some clunkers as well. Even though it's not working out, to me, it was still very much worth the risk. Much like I think Seattle was right investing money in a very unproven Matt Flynn. You have to take chances sometimes. Sometimes they just don't work out.
OP
OP
That's fine. If you guys don't think I should voice an opinion counter to yours (mine: Leinart is better than what we have, in part BECAUSE he checks down and plays it safe (not that he's the second coming or even a top-half starter, and not that he should be on the team right now after everything that happened); yours: he doesn't even belong in the NFL), I'll keep it to myself.
The well has been poisoned.
I'll still maintain that if we have even pedestrian QB play from our guys we can be a very good team. Unfortunately, pedestrian performances might be a tall order for this group of guys.
The well has been poisoned.
I'll still maintain that if we have even pedestrian QB play from our guys we can be a very good team. Unfortunately, pedestrian performances might be a tall order for this group of guys.
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kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Seattle gave up nothing to Green Bay to get Flynn, paid him half of what Kolb got, and still have a QB competition because they had a guy and drafted one. Yes, Seattle's front office (and maybe coaching staff) are a lot better than ours, but Seattle did it the right way, and we screwed the pooch.
Decisions made out of a sense of panic or required by necessity are rarely good ones. I was talking to a lot of Cards fans at the time, and the team needed to do something, or that stadium was going to be empty. I get that. But for purely football purposes, they would've been better off doing nothing or getting Matt Hasselback (whom I think the Valley would've rallied behind--he's an amazing quote and an incredible guy--his interview on the Rich Eisen Podcast a couple months ago was awesome).
I vote we ban discussing lienart any longer
ASUCHRIS
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Seconded. He becomes Voldemort.
Cbus cardsfan
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I agree that Seattle did it the right way. But, it was a different situation for them. There weren't any young FA quarterbacks out there for the Cards to sign and I think they were trying to get "the guy" for the next 5-8 years and Kolb was it. Personally, I wanted them to get Palmer. I think they shied away from Hassleback because, even if he did stay healthy, they would be right back in the same situation of looking for QBOF in the very near future. Of course Kolb stinking has put them right back in that situation anyway.
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