About Amare and Rebounding

[Irish]

From the beginning, Amare has been subjected to mixed messages by the franchise. D'Antoni in particular made it very clear that it was imore important to stay out of foul trouble than to be an agressive defender and rebounder. At the same time, they hung him out to dry by making him the only "big" against opponents with centers outwaighin him by 50 pounds. Marion grabbed a lot of rebounds, but was not help at post defense or blocking out. KT might have helped, but D'Antoni refused to play them together.

Lopez has shown that he can play defense and block out on the boards, so that opponsnt's biggest guys are not free to try to force ticky tack fouls from Amare. It showed up on the stat sheets.

In the period Nov through Jan, Amare averaged 8.45 rpg. During Frb through Apr, he averaged 9.85 rpg. Some of this may be due to Amare getting healthy and in shape, but it provides a basis for comparison.

Al Jefferson - 9.3 rpg
Aldridge - 6.0 rpg
Biedrins - 7.8 rpg
Bynum 9.0 rpg
Camby - 10.0 rpg
Chandler - 8.8 rpg
Dalembert - 9.6 rpg
Dampier - 6.6 rpg
Duncan 10.1 rpg
Haywood - 6.2 rpg
Horford -9.9 rpg
Marion - 6.4 rpg
Okafor - 9.0 rpg

There are some guys a lot higher, but not many.

Lee 11.7 rpg
Bosh 10.9 rpg
Boozer 11.2 rpg
Gasol 11.3 rpg
Howard 13.2 rpg

We'd all like Amare to get better on the boards, but he is not exactly in botom feeder range for the regular season. The playoffs showed how much he needs to adjust to playing vastly taller guys, but the continaul ragging about his rebounding seems a bit misplaced.

 

[Mainstreet]

The playoffs showed how much he needs to adjust to playing vastly taller guys, but the continaul ragging about his rebounding seems a bit misplaced.

I agree about the rebounding and Amare has improved as a defender as well. However, I don't think Amare can force the ball inside against taller athletic defenders. This was a disaster against the Lakers. IMO, I don't think Amare can improve much more in this area. He really tried but the effort was futile unless he was rolling to the basket or had a favorable match-up. Amare was forced more and more to be a jump shooter. The younger Amare prior to injury would have just flown over the defense. I think Amare matured this past season and he is what he is, which is still very good.

 

[Irish]

I agree about the rebounding and Amare has improved as a defender as well. However, I don't think Amare can force the ball inside against taller athletic defenders. This was a disaster against the Lakers. IMO, I don't think Amare can improve much more in this area. He really tried but the effort was futile unless he was rolling to the basket or had a favorable match-up. Amare was forced more and more to be a jump shooter. The younger Amare prior to injury would have just flown over the defense. I think Amare matured this past season and he is what he is, which is still very good.

I'm not sure if a younger Amare could or should try to go over TWO seven footers..His flat footed jumping is not enough and help by a seven footer got him into trouble. Overall, Amare only struggled on offense in the 1st and last games of the Laker series. (His shooting in game 6 looks bad because the Lakers fouled him so much, as reflected by his 13 or 15 from the line).

 

[joshstmarie]

oops.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...itScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not suggesting you have an agenda here Irish but your stats seem a bit misleading to me. For example, Lopez missed the last 8 games of the season and during that stretch Amare averaged just over 10 rebounds per game. Lopez wasn't there during our last 3 postseasons and Amare averaged over 10 rebounds a game then.

For those that say our postseason foes were particularly hard for Amare to rebound against, he also averaged just over 11 rebounds a game during the regular season in the 10 games against the Lakers, Blazers and Spurs. And Lopez was a starter in fewer than half of those games. It seems to me, Amare CAN rebound when he's motivated.

Steve

 

[TucsonDevil]

My argument hasn't been that Amare is the worst rebounder in the league...clearly there are guards that can't rebound as well as Amare.

My contention is this - how can he demand a Max contract when in the playoffs he averaged less rebounds than Paul Milsap and Jason Kidd? You can show all the stats you want, but what I saw time and time again was Amare standing on his heels when the defensive rebound was coming off the rim - and small forwards, even guards ran around him for the board. That is not the type of player that is in a position to demand Max Money and Max Years. That is not a franchise leader, that is not a winner - that is a second tier guy, the wingman.

Good luck to Amare, I'm going to miss his offense. It was always exciting.

 

[pokerface]

We'd all like Amare to get better on the boards, but he is not exactly in botom feeder range for the regular season. The playoffs showed how much he needs to adjust to playing vastly taller guys, but the continaul ragging about his rebounding seems a bit misplaced.

Our feelings are misplaced about Amare's rebounding Irish? How about this...Carlos Boozer averaged 13.2 rpg against the very same Lakers team that Amare faced when he averaged 6.0 rpg. Boozer got over double the boards even though he's the same height as Amare. Also, Amare averaged 6.6 rebounds for the entire playoffs.

 

[Irish]

Our feelings are misplaced about Amare's rebounding Irish? How about this...Carlos Boozer averaged 13.2 rpg against the very same Lakers team that Amare faced when he averaged 6.0 rpg. Boozer got over double the boards even though he's the same height as Amare. Also, Amare averaged 6.6 rebounds for the entire playoffs.

Boozer rebounded well, but I'm guessing that Fesenko mostly blocked out.

The first two games of the Suns-Laker's series was distorted by the fact that the Lakers shot lights out those two games. It is hard to rebound when the other team hits 58% of their shots.

One of the obvious problems the Suns have is that they are not only shorter, but lighter and not especially strong. Booer is listed at 268 lbs and is very strong. Milsap is listed at only 250 (which I doubt) and is very very strong.

Energy is no supstitue for raw strength. I'm hopeful that Jones emerges as a real power guy, or otherwise the Suns have to find one. Lopez is expected to get stronger in future years, but he's not a true power guy either. Amare needs to develop his lower body strength (not just ex;plosion by raw strenth) if he's going to be all he can be.

BTW, Gasol shows what building strenth can do. He's been in the NBA for 10 seasons with a caree 9.0 rpg average. In the last two seasons he has averaged 9.8 rpg and last season at 11.3 rpg.

 

[pokerface]

Boozer got double the rebounds against the Lakers and you make excuses for Amare. Double rebounds is not insignificant. Amare got even less rebounds versus Portland...what was his excuse there? Amare is a lousy rebounder for his size and position...admit it and move on.

 

[Irish]

Boozer got double the rebounds against the Lakers and you make excuses for Amare. Double rebounds is not insignificant. Amare got even less rebounds versus Portland...what was his excuse there? Amare is a lousy rebounder for his size and position...admit it and move on.

Perhpas it's the same thing that got Amare 11 rebounds in game 3 when Lopez had his big game. When the Lakers fixated on blocking out Amare, he was not strong enough to beat two guys. Booer did not attract as much attention as Utah lost all four games.

 

[pokerface]

Perhpas it's the same thing that got Amare 11 rebounds in game 3 when Lopez had his big game. When the Lakers fixated on blocking out Amare, he was not strong enough to beat two guys. Booer did not attract as much attention as Utah lost all four games.

It was the same tall Lakers team that faced Boozer....

There is no misunderstanding about Amare...He doesnt have the desire to excel in either rebounding or defense. Sometimes he's adequete...most the time he's not. If he has the spotlight on him in the playoffs and underperforms what are fans supposed to think. He doesnt deserve the benefit of the doubt or excuses. He averaged 6.6 rebounds for the playoffs...not good enough.

 

[BC867]

There is no misunderstanding about Amare...He doesnt have the desire to excel in either rebounding or defense. Sometimes he's adequete...most the time he's not. If he has the spotlight on him in the playoffs and underperforms what are fans supposed to think. He doesnt deserve the benefit of the doubt or excuses. He averaged 6.6 rebounds for the playoffs...not good enough.

Even Alvin Gentry fell into the trap of giving a lot of playing time to Frye at "Center", leaving Amar'e as the only power player on the court for the Suns.

If it was because Lopez didn't have the stamina to play more when returning from is injury, then that couldn't be ----- wait a minute. Jones should have been integrated into the lineup before the playoffs.

Then he and Lopez could have divided the 48 minutes at Center, leaving Amar'e to do what he does best -- which doesn't include rebounding and defending (and staying out of foul trouble) on a consistent basis.

On offense, the game when Lopez became the pick and roll option with Nash, when Amar'e was smothered, worked well. It gave us two alternatives to the option. In the next game, it was abandoned so Frye could keep trying his 23 ft. shots.

 

[Mainstreet]

If it was because Lopez didn't have the stamina to play more when returning from is injury, then that couldn't be ----- wait a minute. Jones should have been integrated into the lineup before the playoffs.

To be fair, I'm not sure Jones was ready to play NBA caliber basketball. He at least needs the summer league and training camp to see if he can contribute to the Suns. I kept thinking in the Laker series the Suns needed an inside power player like DeJuan Blair. I can't complain the Suns gave up the pick that got him for SA because the Suns got Dragic with the swap involving second round picks.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jones should have been integrated into the lineup before the playoffs.

ug.

 

[mojorizen7]

I understand that we need topics to discuss being that it's early June and all but...Amare isn't a very good rebounder.
We've got small forwards boxing out & getting their's.....while Amare will go out and string together a couple games where he gets 12 or 13 boards, then come back with his usual 6 or 7....with the occasional 3.

Amare would look like the God of all power forwards next to a Dennis Rodman and a Zydrunas Ilgauskas-type at center. Unfortunately this is reality and he looks like who he is.....a PF with the scorer's mentality who can't defend or control the glass on a regular basis.

His rebounding is an issue for this team if he stays here and our frontline remains the same.

 

[Sunburn]

^ ding ding. I appreciate the attempt at phoenix suns conversation, and by all means keep it coming, but at this point in Amare's career this isn't a viable debate. As much as we desperately want him to be a good rebounder, and feel he has all of the natural gifts to be a good rebounder, he just isn't. Bottomline, he is not.

 

[dodie53]

Amare is a lazy rebounder.
period.

 

[Irish]

Amare is a lazy rebounder.
period.

How did he get so many rebounds late in the rebular season? For example:

Apr 11 v Houston - 13
Apr 9 @ OKC - 15
Mar 10 @ Chic - 11
Mar 28 @ Min - 17
Mar 21 @ Por - 14
Mar 14 vs NOH - 12
Mar 12 vs LAL - 16
Mar 3 @ Clips - 14
Mar 1 vs Den - 10

In Mar, Amare averaged 9.9 rpg

IMHO, Amare has proven his rebounding is not a fluke, BUT overall he is not prepared to fight through TWO bigs fixated on blocking him out. When he got some help from Lopez in games 3 and 4 of the Laker series, Amera had 11 and 8 rebounds respectively.

It's one thing to give an opinion in claiming Amare is just lazy, without providing context.

IMHO, most good rebounders are teamed with another guy who mostly blocks out. Attacking the ball by oneself is not enough when the opponents are biigger and stronger. IMO Amare is a good "attack the ball rebounder" who is not so well trained at blocking out. Neither Fry nor Amundsen ore physical rebounders and without Lopez, Amare was all but left out to dry

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't agree with the lazy explanation or the Amare needs a good box out guy explanation. I still maintain a 3rd option. Amare is an unfocused, low IQ basketball player. That's why different facets of his game disappear from time to time. Amare gets one tracked for long stretches and doesn't seem to have the ability to adjust or focus at times during games.

I have always maintained Amare is not the sharpest tool in the tool shed on the court. Amare doesn't have natural instincts when it comes to rebounding and has to concentrate or focus to get it done. In the Lakers series I still maintain their bigs were better then ours so even if Amare could have focused it wouldn't have made much of a difference for the entire duration of the series. It was a double whammy in this case.

 

[mojorizen7]

I don't agree with the lazy explanation or the Amare needs a good box out guy explanation. I still maintain a 3rd option. Amare is an unfocused, low IQ basketball player. That's why different facets of his game disappear from time to time. Amare gets one tracked for long stretches and doesn't seem to have the ability to adjust or focus at times during games.

I have always maintained Amare is not the sharpest tool in the tool shed on the court. Amare doesn't have natural instincts when it comes to rebounding and has to concentrate or focus to get it done. In the Lakers series I still maintain their bigs were better then ours so even if Amare could have focused it wouldn't have made much of a difference for the entire duration of the series. It was a double whammy in this case.

+1
I'm not buying any of these excuses(for lack of a better term) for why Amare is a poor rebounder...which he is.

 

[Errntknght]

But, George, a defensive player has to be pretty lazy if his man gets into position to block him out. When we were zoning in games 1 & 2, Amare was usually defending on the wing - when a shot went up he just stood there watching. No one had to exert an ounce of energy to box him out. (My guess is that you didn't watch those games.)

You also missed the early parts of this debate where it was agreed that Amare had rebounded well above his norm in the reg. season after the ASB.

 

[pokerface]

Irish whats with your selective dates for Amares rebounding? He had a good month in March where he averaged "almost" 10 boards a game...goody. We're thrilled. Now maybe someday he'll work his way up to 10 rpg in the playoffs instead of his pukey 6.6 boards...even then it will be like "yawn". Also, by you hyping his 10 rpg in March it makes him look WORSE in rebounding because all you are hyping is a so so month in grabbing boards. You're trying to make his "9.9" seem like Dennis Rodman numbers...cripe.

Please stop this and keep your reputation intact because its starting to look silly!

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't agree with the lazy explanation or the Amare needs a good box out guy explanation. I still maintain a 3rd option. Amare is an unfocused, low IQ basketball player. That's why different facets of his game disappear from time to time. Amare gets one tracked for long stretches and doesn't seem to have the ability to adjust or focus at times during games.

I have always maintained Amare is not the sharpest tool in the tool shed on the court. Amare doesn't have natural instincts when it comes to rebounding and has to concentrate or focus to get it done. In the Lakers series I still maintain their bigs were better then ours so even if Amare could have focused it wouldn't have made much of a difference for the entire duration of the series. It was a double whammy in this case.

Excellent post! I couldn't agree more.

 

[Irish]

I'll be the first to say Amare has not been given proper training at rebounding. This past season Genrty seemed to actually put emphasis on things like defense and robounding that somehow escaped D'Antoni.

1. Poor Anticipation - Dennis Rodman would go to where he thought the ball was going when it was shot. This is not being taught.

2. Coaching - Bill Cartright is an OK coach, but his record was never one of a GREAT rebounder. His career was 6.3 rpg. His best year was with the Knicks when he averaged 8.4 rpg. He played with Harace Grant who avered just undr 9.9 rpg.

3. Size/Strength - Amare is 6'9" and has only average sized arms. Longer players can reach over him to grab balls. Sadly, the refs permit opponents to push him under the basket so rebounds tend to bounce over him. If this is the basis for deciding Amare is an awful player, that's fine but it does not say anything about his degree of effort.

4. Zone - One common problem with the zone is that it makes it harder to determine who to block out. The decision to play zone had to do with keeping guys out of the lane.

In any case, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The opinion that Amare is just lazy is an opinion. I just don't agree.

 

[AzStevenCal]

3. Size/Strength - Amare is 6'9" and has only average sized arms. Longer players can reach over him to grab balls. Sadly, the refs permit opponents to push him under the basket so rebounds tend to bounce over him. If this is the basis for deciding Amare is an awful player, that's fine but it does not say anything about his degree of effort.

I don't think he's an awful player. As a matter of fact, I don't know anyone that thinks he's an awful player and that includes the small handful here that can't stand the guy.

My problem is that he frequently just stands around on defense and when it comes time to rebound. When things are going well offensively he is MUCH more active defensively than at other times and it's reflected in his rebound totals. To me, that says he's capable of being a much better player than he settles for. He's still a very good player but he has the potential to be one of the greats and all too often he settles for less.

Steve