I'm not usually a big fan of trade scenios, but currently Jefferson getting $12 million this year and $13 million next year. Currently, J-Rich is schedule to get $13.3 this year and $14.4 million next year. If all they are looking to do is a cap dump, thie would work even if the Suns kept Amare.
Al Jefferson Being Shopped
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I'm not usually a big fan of trade scenios, but currently Jefferson getting $12 million this year and $13 million next year. Currently, J-Rich is schedule to get $13.3 this year and $14.4 million next year. If all they are looking to do is a cap dump, thie would work even if the Suns kept Amare.
If the TWolves are willing to part with Jefferson to clear cap space only and are not looking for talent in return, then this could be a player the Suns could target if they can first do a sign-and-trade with Amare. We would end up with Jefferson for 4 years at $12M first year vs. Amare for 6 years at $18M first year. For TWolves, that's a cheaper option than acquiring expiring contracts.
slinslin
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No thanks, Jefferson isn't fully recovered and a terrible terrible fit with Nash.
mojorizen7
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No disrespect towards you Slin but....Who cares if a certain player doesn't mesh with Nash? The guys 37 yrs old and is running on his reserve tank!
Shheesh....
Lets see, if player A is a post player who demands the ball then we don't want him here because it conflicts with what Nashy likes to do.....im sorry,its time to disregard that philosophy.
Its time that Steve Nash makes a sacrifice(if needed) in order to bring in a certain kind of talent.
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No disrespect towards you Slin but....Who cares if a certain player doesn't mesh with Nash? The guys 37 yrs old and is running on his reserve tank!
Yeah, I'd be concerned about his injuries but I could care less whether he's a perfect fit with Nash.
Steve
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
You should care because it doesn't look like Nash will play any less than 30mpg for our team for the next 2 years still.
Why would you want to acquire an overpaid PF with injury concerns that doesn't play pick and roll, doesn't run the floor and is a strictly post-player only.
Why would you want to acquire an overpaid PF with injury concerns that doesn't play pick and roll, doesn't run the floor and is a strictly post-player only.
mojorizen7
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I wouldn't. I said nothing of wanting to aquire Al Jefferson specifically..... but if the SUNS had the chance to aquire a true PF who will demand the ball in the post who's game isn't geared toward fun n gun then absolutely i'm taking that guy, despite Nash's 37 yr old natural gifts and despite Nash's 37 yr old wants and needs.
If Nash plays 30mpg here for the next 2 years then we can truly start in with the Titanic references and emoticons...
.......
elindholm
edited for content
Why? Nash figures to be an above-average starting PG even two years from now. He's not high on the Suns' list of problems. There's a myth on this board that Nash's presence precludes the Suns having a low-post game, but I don't buy that. Stoudemire sucks in the low post because he has poor vision and worse footwork, not because Nash is on the floor at the same time.
mojorizen7
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Let me specify and augment. If Nash plays 30mpg here and continues to be the offensive catalyst for this team then we can start in with the Titanic references etc etc etc...
You may recall a very large,egocentric, low post player that was here just a couple yrs ago who had a pretty nice season demanding and scoring in the low post. Ultimately he didn't fit in. Why? A few reasons i would say.
1) Didn't fit in with Nash and his style etc...
2) Mammoth contract
3) Old
Also, i agree what you say about Amare,which just confirms my point. Nash & Amare are a nice fit because Amare has no post game.
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slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
It's not a myth. The Shaq fiasco is proof enough. Playing through the post takes away all of Nash's strength and makes him a just average PG with horrible defense.
The Suns don't want Amare in the post because they need him to cut and set picks to make Nash more effective too. No doubt Amare could become a very good post player. The Suns just don't want to play through the post.
elindholm
edited for content
Which proves what? The Suns won't have anyone remotely like O'Neal in the near future. And, as you correctly point out, most of O'Neal's problems had nothing to do with Nash.
slinslin said:
I don't think that was the reason. O'Neal was immobile and, thanks to his poor FT shooting and high turnover rate, relatively inefficient.
That's absurd. The Suns have lost countless games by force-feeding Stoudemire in the post and watching him fail to deliver. In fact, the very last game they played, Game 6 against the Lakers, fit this profile perfectly. Get back to me next season when Stoudemire is playing for someone else, with a different point guard, and suddenly above average in the low post. It won't happen.
Jefferson is not a "perfect" fit for the Suns, but neither was KT. D'Antoni taught KT to run the pick and roll even though that was not his background.
I suspect Jefferson would fit better with Dragic than Nash. Obviously this might be less effective in Nash's 30 minutes, but in Dragics 18 with Amare would mean only 12 minutes with Nash to make 30 by Jefferson.
I'm not sure this works, but considering the need to be able to change up the offense against tough defenses. It's a gamble, but it could be a way to add a 17 ppg 49.8% 6'10" 265 lbs inside guy.
I suspect Jefferson would fit better with Dragic than Nash. Obviously this might be less effective in Nash's 30 minutes, but in Dragics 18 with Amare would mean only 12 minutes with Nash to make 30 by Jefferson.
I'm not sure this works, but considering the need to be able to change up the offense against tough defenses. It's a gamble, but it could be a way to add a 17 ppg 49.8% 6'10" 265 lbs inside guy.
mojorizen7
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It proves that having a true post presence conflicts with a PG like Nash who thrives on everything EXCEPT dumping the ball into the post on a regular basis....which was the original point.
Nice try.
What do you mean the SUNS won't have anyone remotely like Shaq here in the future? You're going to have to be more specific with that claim.
Also, i didn't point out that most of O'Neals problems here had nothing to do with Nash.
I put them in order according to my opinion on what the trouble was. 1,2,3.
My opinion of course....
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JCSunsfan
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The Suns need to be looking for a superstar type player if they are not resigning Amare.
That needs to be regardless of position. They need a player they can build around. Ideally it would be a big, but any position would be fine just as long as there is superstar type of potential.
I would have no problem sign and trading for a smaller player (maybe a Curry-type).
That needs to be regardless of position. They need a player they can build around. Ideally it would be a big, but any position would be fine just as long as there is superstar type of potential.
I would have no problem sign and trading for a smaller player (maybe a Curry-type).
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I totally agree. Nash is one of the best PGs in the game and he would get it to a player like Jefferson in the flow of the game. The difference between Shaq and Jefferson (from what I've seen) is that Jefferson does not pout if he does not get the ball and can score just by rebounding. He doesn't demand the star treatment like Shaq.
cly2tw
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Amare's main offensive problem this past season was that he lost his confidence in the midrange jumper after the eye surgery. His paint moves (I won't just talk about low post as it's only a minor part of his game) have improved a lot. He no longer commits charging fouls as often. He passes very well in the paint, and willing to. He just has not been put into the position of the go-to guy often enough, to be reliable in the WCF game 6 situation. (Well, Kobe was even worse in game 7 of the finals.)
Jefferson is good, but he won't be as useful when Nash wishes to dribble-dominates in the paint and catch his passes the way Amare could. It might be blessing in disguise though that requires Nash to do that less. But, Al is way more injury prone than Amare for you all Amare haters.
Jefferson is good, but he won't be as useful when Nash wishes to dribble-dominates in the paint and catch his passes the way Amare could. It might be blessing in disguise though that requires Nash to do that less. But, Al is way more injury prone than Amare for you all Amare haters.
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Arizona's Finest
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The Anti-Nash faction on this board is ridiculous and borderline ignorant.
Are people actually pointing to a 48 year old Shaq and his two week stay here in Phoenix as proof to why Nash can't play with a post game???
Seriously???
Get a grip.
Are people actually pointing to a 48 year old Shaq and his two week stay here in Phoenix as proof to why Nash can't play with a post game???
Seriously???
Get a grip.
Do we have to point to that? I believe the current coaching staff on this team and Al Gentry specifically pointed out that he thought having Shaq on this team meant taking the ball out of Steve's hands to often and that the offense is built around the ball being in Steve's hands.
So, I think it was much more then having Shaq on this team. It was the concept of playing the type of basketball where you throw it down into your post player first and initiating your offense from that.
Anybody who has watched this team knows that when Steve isn't out there playing his game, the offense often has disappeared.
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It's not all one way or the other. There were many times Nash passed Amare the ball inside looking for him to score as a primary option. See Lakers frontline in the playoffs. Amare could not muscle it up against a big front line. Now Jefferson is sort of a mauler type with good post moves. If you pass Jefferson the ball inside chances are he is going to score because he is just plain dirt strong. Watching him play against the Suns over the years, if you can stop him inside once defensively invariably he will get the rebound and put it right back. IMO, the key for a big man (who is not money with his outside shot) to play well with Nash is to play within the offense and not always command the ball. If Amundson had good post moves Nash would not have any trouble getting him the ball more inside to create his own shot.
mojorizen7
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Some people just love to take sides and claim other's ignorance.
Anybody with a clue of SUNS basketball knowledge and an ounce of objectivity knows that a Steve Nash-led offense isn't designed to walk across the timeline and throw it in the post 20 times/gm.
When Shaq was here that was a big part of the offense,which took away from the strengths of Nash and as a result, the strengths of others in terms of transition points. Our offense was still very good,just in a different way.
Not sure why this has been spun into percieved Nash hate. It's simply fact.
My original point was that it's a dumb idea to try to bring in expensive talent based on if the player's style meshes with Nash. I realize he's still playing at a high level, but to continue to model your influx of talent based on Nash's strength's at the age of 37 is really stupid.....unless the SUNS have an 21 yr old exact replacement for the future HOF'r ready to unleash from the basement of the arena of course.
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TBaslim
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Good take, and why I don't like Jefferson on this team, although he's a nice player.
Playing within this offense (with either Nash or Dragic) requires hustling up and down the court...not SSOL hustle, but still getting after it. I think Big Al is just too slow for that game. He's a halfcourt player. Suns need a fullcourt player who can buckle down in the halfcourt when needed (what I thought Amare would become) or a halfcourt guy who can run all day long (ideas?)...take your pick.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Al Jefferson, while a nice player when healthy, is definitely not the right fit on the Phoenix Suns. Unfortunately, the best player other than Amare that would benefit being on the Suns is Chris Bosh, but that's not going to happen.
mojorizen7
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Let's assume for a moment that Jefferson is healthy without a history of injuries.....and that Amare has played his last game in a SUNS uniform.
Do you still feel he's a bad fit here?....and if so why?
Chaplin
Better off silent
Yes, he's a bad fit here. At least with this offense. He wouldn't fit well with Nash, JRich and GHill. If we were fielding a team of Lopez, Dragic and Dudley, for example, then I'd think about it.
Sunburn
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I think people forget that once Porter was fired and Gentry implemented a more modified offensive philosophy, which tried to integrate both Shaq and Nash's strengths (Seven Seconds or Shaq), the offense ran beautifully. Hollinger, based on his statistical analysis, even submits it as perhaps the most efficient offense of all time.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090317
(Exciting side note - notice that this offensive efficiency was coming even without Stoudemire)
The problem wasn't having a powerful, post presence. If anything it gave us more offensive options and firepower in this integrated system. The problem was that powerful, post presence (Shaq) could not play effective pick and roll defense. So, I believe the real question to pose if deliberating whether or not Jefferson would improve this team is can he play effective pick and roll defense? Offensively, I like the capability he brings us.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090317
(Exciting side note - notice that this offensive efficiency was coming even without Stoudemire)
The problem wasn't having a powerful, post presence. If anything it gave us more offensive options and firepower in this integrated system. The problem was that powerful, post presence (Shaq) could not play effective pick and roll defense. So, I believe the real question to pose if deliberating whether or not Jefferson would improve this team is can he play effective pick and roll defense? Offensively, I like the capability he brings us.
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