I didn't see anything where they directly called out Amare- you are implying that they are talking about Amare. You could be right, but for all we know that meeting was about other things.
Amare - Close Door Meeting With Coach
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I didn't see anything where they directly called out Amare- you are implying that they are talking about Amare. You could be right, but for all we know that meeting was about other things.
Amare is not the beast in the post he used to be. He can't drive around anyone anymore. Not even the Jake Voskuhls of the world. He's more of a Karl Malone / post-surgery Webber type than the old lightning-quick Amare. Gone are the days when he faced his man straight up, blew by him, and dunked. That used to happen every other play. Now the only dunks he gets are when he and Nash or he and Diaw run the pick-and-roll and the defense breaks down, or when he cuts to the basket and receives a perfect pass.
Take the Amare of two years ago (see Spurs series) and place him on this team? We waltz to the championship. But not with this Amare. Sorry to point out the obvious, it pains me, and I hate to be the whiner.
Take the Amare of two years ago (see Spurs series) and place him on this team? We waltz to the championship. But not with this Amare. Sorry to point out the obvious, it pains me, and I hate to be the whiner.
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OP
OP
No I am not implying anything. I heard the report on the radio. They said that the close door meeting with Amare was directly related to the teams lack of chemistry and selfish play. Those same sources said that Nash's recent comments were related to Amare. I don't know if they were also directed at other players I was just repeated what was said.
Also, I don't think people are overeacting. This thread was to post your thoughts on this. As I stated previously, I think this may have been a "little" kick in the butt to some guys to make sure all is right heading into the playoffs. I don't think that this issue is one that will cause major problems if that is all it was. EVERYBODY needs a kick in the backside sometimes.
SactownSunsFan
Welcome to the Age of Ayton
Sorry guys, but if Nash and coach D are indeed bringing to light Amare's selfishness, they're are absolutely right. Amare's FGA to assist ratio is 12.6:1. Let's compare that to similar players:
Amare - 12.6:1
Bosh - 6.5:1
Howard - 5.6:1
J. O'Neal - 7:1
Duncan - 4.2:1
Barbosa - 3.4:1 (For those of you saying Barbs is more selfish)
As you can see, that is absolutely terrible. Of the 77 games played thus far, he's registered 0 assists in 31 of them. That's horrendous. The way a defense comes at him when he gets the ball, he should be averaging at least 2-3 assists a game... he's averaging 1. He needs to become a more willing passer.
I'm not saying Amare shouldn't get his touches or shots, he should, but if he were more willing to pass the ball, particularly when help defense is headed his way as it often does, we'd have a much more fluid offense. Think Shaq passing out of double teams during the Laker's championship run, and you get the picture, only we have much better shooters than that Lakers team.
Amare - 12.6:1
Bosh - 6.5:1
Howard - 5.6:1
J. O'Neal - 7:1
Duncan - 4.2:1
Barbosa - 3.4:1 (For those of you saying Barbs is more selfish)
As you can see, that is absolutely terrible. Of the 77 games played thus far, he's registered 0 assists in 31 of them. That's horrendous. The way a defense comes at him when he gets the ball, he should be averaging at least 2-3 assists a game... he's averaging 1. He needs to become a more willing passer.
I'm not saying Amare shouldn't get his touches or shots, he should, but if he were more willing to pass the ball, particularly when help defense is headed his way as it often does, we'd have a much more fluid offense. Think Shaq passing out of double teams during the Laker's championship run, and you get the picture, only we have much better shooters than that Lakers team.
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OP
OP
Wow. Great post. I didn't think it was that bad. However, I will say that I have seen Amare have some amazing passes over the last few weeks. I think that is just one more part of his game that he has to work on. It will come.
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I can't believe that you are using a useless stat like FGA/A ratio for low post players. Amare has been MUCH better at passing out of the double team than he was pre-injury.
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I don't think that Amare's assist totals are relevant, especially when you compare that with field goal attempts.
Some have agreed that Barbosa has become selfish recently, and yet he is having a career year in assists.
In order for the Suns to win it all, Amare is going to have to come up huge on both ends of the floor. Him going hard to the basket, and drawing fouls is what we need from him. We don't want Amare passing the ball all that much when he is around the basket, leading to turnovers. We already have a passing big man in Diaw.
SactownSunsFan
Welcome to the Age of Ayton
Wow. How do you not see that his ratio being double or more that of other low-post players as being significant? I'm not prepared to spend half a day looking at every player's FGA:Assist ratio, but I'd bet the house that Amare's is near the bottom of the league, post player or not.
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Um, I see the totals, you posted them above. I can understand if Nash and Coach D want Amare to pass the ball, to keep the ball moving, opening up easy shots, but I do not put a huge amount of emphasis in assists in a PF or C.
When I look at PF/C's, what I look at obviously points and rebounds, but also blocks, FG%, FT%, TO's. If Amare only averages 1 or 2 assists per game, I'll take that, if he combines that with 2 blocks, 10 FT attempts, and less than 2 turnovers.
TheHopToad
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It seems to me that if you're going to use FGA, Field Goal Attempts, which includes both made and missed shots, then you should also include all passes made, not just ones that result in a made basket. If Amare, or anyone for that matter, makes a pass and then the shot is missed, he doesn't get credit for the pass, which further dilutes the purpose of this statistic.
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That is another one of my points. If Amare passes the ball out of a double team to Bell, who decides not to shoot the ball, and the ball gets passed around the perimeter, no assist for Amare.
A turnover/assist ratio would have been better stat to use IMO. (I have no idea how he ranks in this stat)
So in other words, the statistic is irrelevant because it does not mesh with your point of view. It is very telling stat.
When Amare gets the ball, he is going to put a shot up most of the time. He is a decent passer. He just doesn't. That is the truth. However, Amare is such a good finisher that he turns poor 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 chances into fouls and dunks. I don't think anyone here wants Amare to become Diaw. I don't think anyone here even really thinks Amare is selfish, and personally I want him shooting the ball 20 times in the playoffs.
You can't however, argue that Amare is a willing passer.
Edit: You really don't want to put put Amare's Assist to TO ratio up there. Its bad.
When Amare gets the ball, he is going to put a shot up most of the time. He is a decent passer. He just doesn't. That is the truth. However, Amare is such a good finisher that he turns poor 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 chances into fouls and dunks. I don't think anyone here wants Amare to become Diaw. I don't think anyone here even really thinks Amare is selfish, and personally I want him shooting the ball 20 times in the playoffs.
You can't however, argue that Amare is a willing passer.
Edit: You really don't want to put put Amare's Assist to TO ratio up there. Its bad.
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Good one.It is not a very good stat to use regardless. I don't think that the stat tells us much of anything. How often is Amare passing the ball? Assists are not the only stat in proving if you are being selfish or not.
Using the turnover/assist ratio is a much better stat to use, than field goal attempts/assists. I have never seen it used in an argument to gauge someone's selfishness until now.
SactownSunsFan
Welcome to the Age of Ayton
It is not a very good stat to use regardless. I don't think that the stat tells us much of anything. How often is Amare passing the ball? Assists are not the only stat in proving if you are being selfish or not.
Using the turnover/assist ratio is a much better stat to use, than field goal attempts/assists. I have never seen it used in an argument to gauge someone's selfishness until now.
Okay, well Amare's averaging 2.8 turnovers : 1 assist. That's 407th in the league. Terrible. Just plain terrible.
boisesuns
Standing Tall And Traded
I like Barbosas selfishness. When our offense gets stagnant and jacks up threes, he's one of the few players that will take it inside and get some offense when we need a spark. He does shoot a lot of threes, but he's also been hitting a lot.
I'm glad he's getting more aggresive offensivley. We'll need it.
I'm glad he's getting more aggresive offensivley. We'll need it.
Basketball is a sport where the only "pure" stat is free throw percentage. Every other stat is at least partly a function of the team's overall style.
If all you looked at was the number of assists, Bosh's 2.4 to Amare's 1 looks pretty decisive. Still, I'm not sure what it tells us.
Compare Bosh versus Amare. Bosh averages 22.7 ppg versus 20.5 ppg for Amare. Bosh plays outside more than Amare and shoots 49.8% compared to Amare's 58.2%, and plays 38.3 minutes per game compared to 32.9 minutes for Amare. Bosh is a much bigger part of the Raptor offense than Amare (22.7% of the team scoring for Bosh versus 18.5% for Amare). Bosh has taken 16.8% of the team's field goal attempts versus 15.3% of the team's shots by Amare.
What does this prove? Not much. What it shows is that the Suns have a more balanced attack that is not as dependent on Amare for their offense. Bosh has more assists, but this may be as much because the ball goes through him more.
Offensive styles are important. Duncan averages 3.4 assists per game, but they post him up rather than use him in the pick and roll. Their inside-out style makes use of Duncan's offensive skills, but he doesn't close on the basket like Amare can. Different guys in different systems.
Should Amare work on passing out of double teams? Sure. But I'm not so sure he is an especially selfish player.
If all you looked at was the number of assists, Bosh's 2.4 to Amare's 1 looks pretty decisive. Still, I'm not sure what it tells us.
Compare Bosh versus Amare. Bosh averages 22.7 ppg versus 20.5 ppg for Amare. Bosh plays outside more than Amare and shoots 49.8% compared to Amare's 58.2%, and plays 38.3 minutes per game compared to 32.9 minutes for Amare. Bosh is a much bigger part of the Raptor offense than Amare (22.7% of the team scoring for Bosh versus 18.5% for Amare). Bosh has taken 16.8% of the team's field goal attempts versus 15.3% of the team's shots by Amare.
What does this prove? Not much. What it shows is that the Suns have a more balanced attack that is not as dependent on Amare for their offense. Bosh has more assists, but this may be as much because the ball goes through him more.
Offensive styles are important. Duncan averages 3.4 assists per game, but they post him up rather than use him in the pick and roll. Their inside-out style makes use of Duncan's offensive skills, but he doesn't close on the basket like Amare can. Different guys in different systems.
Should Amare work on passing out of double teams? Sure. But I'm not so sure he is an especially selfish player.
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"Originally Posted by SactownSunsFan 
Okay, well Amare's averaging 2.8 turnovers : 1 assist. That's 407th in the league. Terrible. Just plain terrible."
Amare averages 2.8 turnovers per game...and is tied with Tim Duncan, Ray Allen, Jamaal Tinsley, Jamal Crawford, Andre Miller, and Pau Gasol.
Dwight Howard and Eddy Curry average 3.8 turnovers a game, Lamar Odom 3.0, and Jermaine O'Neal 3.0. At 2.7 turnovers a game are bigs like Garnett and Boozer.
As an aside, the Suns have several guys who are great at NOT turning the ball over. Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas are among on a per 48 minute basis average only 1.4 and James Jones only 1.0.
Nash has a lot of turnovers at 3.9 per game (third worst in the NBA) but still has a very respectable 2.97 assist to turnover ratio because he makes so many assists.
Okay, well Amare's averaging 2.8 turnovers : 1 assist. That's 407th in the league. Terrible. Just plain terrible."
Amare averages 2.8 turnovers per game...and is tied with Tim Duncan, Ray Allen, Jamaal Tinsley, Jamal Crawford, Andre Miller, and Pau Gasol.
Dwight Howard and Eddy Curry average 3.8 turnovers a game, Lamar Odom 3.0, and Jermaine O'Neal 3.0. At 2.7 turnovers a game are bigs like Garnett and Boozer.
As an aside, the Suns have several guys who are great at NOT turning the ball over. Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas are among on a per 48 minute basis average only 1.4 and James Jones only 1.0.
Nash has a lot of turnovers at 3.9 per game (third worst in the NBA) but still has a very respectable 2.97 assist to turnover ratio because he makes so many assists.
My guess is that Amare's head was out of whack because of the Spurs game. It looked to me like he went into 2005 playoffs mode for a bit, only to be graphically reminded that he's still not 100% athletically (I should probably call it 110%, since there's no point in waiting for Amare to regain his 22-year-old legs).
IMO Amare generally does a fine job passing from the post--he generally passes when he's forced to, but he's doing well at recognizing when that is and putting the ball in the right person's hands. When I think of "Amare" and "unselfishness" in the same sentence, I usually think of his work on the defensive backboards--he still needs to box out better, and his rebounding in generally seems to have declined recently.
IMO Amare generally does a fine job passing from the post--he generally passes when he's forced to, but he's doing well at recognizing when that is and putting the ball in the right person's hands. When I think of "Amare" and "unselfishness" in the same sentence, I usually think of his work on the defensive backboards--he still needs to box out better, and his rebounding in generally seems to have declined recently.
